I have to agree that this isn't such a great route in my opinion.

However, if you DO want to increase drain as time goes by I would suggest coming at it from the opposite angle and instead of increasing the drain DV, reduce the DP of the drain resistance pool.

Since it's average of 3 dice to get a consistent hit, adding 1 DV of damage means you'd need another 3 die to cover it. Then add another DV, etc. You'll be taking very large amounts of drain quickly.

Conversely, if you were to reduce the DP of the drain resistance pool by 1 in the same manner as you suggested, the mage would sill be more likely to take increases in drain but it wouldn't be as fast or as guaranteed.

I would argue that it would fit fluff better too, as tiring doesn't make the task any harder, it reduces the character's ability to achieve the same results on the same level of difficulty.

But once again, I don't really think this is the way to do it, just a kinder and more consistant version if you feel you must.

If I were to use this rule I'd limit spells in hits from hits=to force to net hits=to force. I personally prefer the idea to change drain once it goes into overcasting into adding .5 drain per force. It does not remove overcasting but it makes it a more last ditch effort thing, instead of a commonplace opening spell.

Net Hits = to Force (rather than Hits = to Force) makes the spells more powerful though...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Yes it does. But with the rule no overcasting you are limiting the force quite a bit for people with magic 3 or so making it hard for them to even get a spell off. So yeah, I can see getting rid of overcasting I think it is one of the main problems with magic being overpowered. But just getting rid of it has ramifications beyond people no longer casting force 9 spells all the time. So changing it to net hits strengthens magic a bit but since it was already mega nerfed by removing overcasting it is still weakened overall just not crippling so for non optimized mages. .

Equating the action of casting control thoughts to going rambo at a bus stop is a little much don't you think?
The cost of both the spell and the instruction for control thoughts is substantially cheaper then manna bolt, and the only reference to the spells are 'some may be illegal in certain jurisdictions'. I don't see how you equate this with being that much worse then the standard gambit of murder, and other nasty stuff runners generally do.

Is rape worse than murder?

yes

Well, that's one opinion. I know rape victims who would disagree.

Frankly, I think people tend to gloss over how bad killing another human being is due the fact that society considers the killing of human beings in certain circumstances to be an acceptable consequence whereas there's really no such thing as a justifiable rape-- the latter is a wanton act by definition. And look at TV! Our heroes kill all the time. So how bad could taking everything someone has ever had or ever will have possibly be?

Ultimately, I suppose it's the perception of what is worse that counts though. I'm just not sure if that perception is necessarily to our credit.

People who have been raped may have an opinion on this.

People who have been murdered do not have any opinion.

Thus, IMHO murder is much worse. For one thing, it stops you from gaming forever.

Shall we move away from the discussion on the merits differences between rape and murder and move onto something less risky

Im wondering in the games played by those who think magic is over powered how does the GM handle magic. To me its sounding like the options to balance magic which fall into the GM's hands arnt being used very much

I use all sorts of stuff against magicians and it keeps them in check alright. The problem is that I'm sick of designing my runs around magicians and not worrying much about the other guys. It may be part of the flavor of the setting, but "geek the mage first!" isn't my kind of game design. I've never believed that magicians render the game unplayable or anything ridiculous like that, but I do find that the deck seems stacked in their favor. Let me put it this way: if I work in something that can counter a magician I can be reasonably sure that it's a good counter to other archetypes as well, while the reverse often isn't true.* Even if magicians were much weaker than they are now, they would still have a niche in dealing with the astral and magical threats. But since Magicians are quite powerful meat side, you instead end up with an archetype that's virtually unchallenged in one area while still being good to excellent in others. Precious few archetypes can make the same claim.

*Background counts and the like are an obvious exception.

I agree. And while there are some suggestions in this thread that could be understood as 'crippling' (read: strong), I think most people just want to dial them back from 11 to, oh, 8? They still have spirits, they still have all kinds of spells, they still have astral, etc. No one is 'killing' the mage character.

Ahhh... I see what you are saying...
I can see that...

Keep the Faith

If its worse why is the spell cheaper and more radially available?

I just asked the question. Sci-fi is about societies, and the question is an interesting one that has direct bearing on your argument.

The problem is, you are arguing from the standpoint of probe = rape, and I'm thinking at best it would qualify as armed robbery. So the question should be "is murder worse then armed robbery" to which the response is yes.

I can see an argument for the Rape part though... especially if you went all the way down to subconscious (Things that they may repress)... also, it is unclear whether the subject actually knows what memories you are pulling (Though it does say that they know it is happening)... in my opinion, I would say that the probe pulls up memories (Conscious or Subconscious) and that those memories are replayed for the information that they provide... given this, I would imagine that the Subject may have a hard time reliving past memories that you have just pulled up from the deep recesses of their mind... especially if they are unpleasant ones that htey would rather forget (again)...

I would think that this Could induce a psychotic episode if the memories are traumatic enough... something akin to rape as a comparison...

Some may see this as a stretch, but the Fluff puts this a a very powerful and Illegal spelll... if all it did was provide True Answers to Simple Questions, it would not be as feared as it is... Even the Vulcan Mind-Meld can be an exceedingly painful and drawn out process if desired...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Mind probe is theft. You are not imposing you will on anyone, or exerting power over them. You are taking information from them, and nothing more. It is theft, pure and simple. (edit) Also show be where it say the victim relives all the memories you see, or even knows what you saw? That would be a good start before waxing about all the 'damage' being done on a psychological level. Also this spell is NOT specifically listed as being Illegal. It says some spells from this category CAN be illegal. Besides I see actual useful therapeutic uses of this spell for helping to deal with repressed trauma, so it would be like getting drugs and misusing them.

Telepathy has long been one of those mind rape type of things in fiction. The basic idea is it is violating the one last level of privacy and self. In fiction with telepathy there is nothing more core to a persons self than there thoughts and mind, and someone just broke in and took it form you. So yes, in fiction it is frequently described as rape like. I can understand why people would disagree with the assumption but it isn't a stretch to have it in fiction. But to put it bluntly if given the option to have my mind read or be tortured for the info, I'll have my mind read even if they get some deep dark private no no I don't even admit to myself.

No, Mordinvan, I'm not arguing from that standpoint at all. You're the one who brought up rape, and I responded directly to you with a simple question.

Mordinvan, you obviously miss a lot when you are replying to my posts... I admitted that it is UNCLEAR what exaclty happens when you mind probe someone...
What is clear is that they know it is being done...
What is not clear is exactly what they may know or experience while it is going on...

Do they know the data being mined? Maybe, and maybe not...
Do they experience the memory that you are pulling? Maybe, and maybe not...
Are they affected in any other way by what is happening to them? Maybe, and maybe not...

What I did say is that since it is an unknown, it may indeed be equivalent to forcing the subject to actually relive unpleasant memories, assuming that is what you are delving into... at which point it could be tantamount to Torture, depending upon the memories... whcih is comparable to Rape...

Because it does not specify in the spell the side effects of such intrusion, the GM is free to impose any that he wants if he sees fit to do so... the fact is thatt there must be something going on to make it such a Highly Feared and Highly Illegal spell... Is it just the fact that you are violating someone's mind? Or, is it something more?

The world Fulff implies that it is something more...
Your mileage may vary, of course...

As for being illegal, Unless you have a License for the Spell, you are casting it illegally... Restricted Gear is only legal for those who have the appropriate License... Note that you will see that ALL magic is Illegal at that point (All Spells have a R or F legality rating)... You MUST be Registered, and You MUST have a License for your spells... and In my part of the game world, you will have a ritual sample taken, as well as a perusal of your astral signature before such licenses are issued...

As for therapeutic uses, if the Spell can be used for good purposes, then it can also be used for heinous purposes, to harm in the exact same manner... Besides, if you wanted something therapeutic, you should probably look into the Healh Category for such things in my opinion, not Detection... though I will grant you that you will at least be able to bring out those traumatic experiences with Mind Probe, if nothing else...

Keep the Faith

Actually people started calling it mind rape long before I got on the band wagon, and I genuinely feel the term is placing an unnecessarily negative frame on the spell. It would be like calling manna bolt "soul rape" and then expecting to discuss the spell with any sort of rational context.

I would say that whatever sensations the spell produces would be secondary to feeling violated by the fact that you have no control over someone rifling through your mind. People still often feel insecure and vulnerable after home invasions whether they were present for the event or not, after all. Maybe Mind Probe isn't as bad being raped (or maybe it is; hard to say from here, obviously), but I'd say it's at least on par with a home invasion.


I'll probably redo this post when I'm not so tired that I sound like an idiot.

Given the below post from Synner on the visability thread how does this change if at all anyones opinon on mage power?

..........................................
Magician rolls Spellcasting + Magic + foci - visibility modifiers - his cover modifier if attacking from cover.
Target rolls Resisting Att (Bod or Will) + Counterspelling and /or Magic Resistance if any + Partial or Good cover modifiers.

Note that the only thing that changed in SR4A is that the target's cover modifier was changed from a (often-overlooked) negative modifier to the Spellcasting roll to a positive modifier to the target's Resistance roll.

Pre-SR4A the system was:
Magician rolls Spellcasting + Magic + foci - visibility modifiers - his own cover modifier if attacking from cover - target's cover modifiers
Defender rolls Resisting Att (Bod or Will) + Counterspelling and/or Magic Resistance (if any)

Unfortunately far too many GMs and players forgot or overlooked to factor one let alone both appropriate cover modifiers into the spellcasting roll which in turn leads to the perception that Direct Combat Spells in particular are more unbalanced than they actually are (though they are powerful). The small change in the way cover means that as a positive modifier to the defender it is less likely to be overlooked.



.......................

Can you provide a page reference for SR4A? I don't have my book here atm, but would like to email that change to my GM.

I'm away from books myself too I just caught it as a post from Synner in the other thread about spellcasting visibility modifiers where even he says the change appears to be ignored / missed by most people

Hopefully anyone else here can chime in and provide us with the page number.

From the other thread:


Hope that helps...

-CJ

Thanks!

No no no.

Mind probe is merely unauthorized copying! Totally different from theft.

*cue piracy definition firestorm*

Interesting note above on the cover modifiers. I would have thought that cover would make casting harder (negative modifier to casting) instead of making resistance easier (positive modifier to resistance roll). In the end it works out the same statistically, though.

From my reading you get both, mage loses if he's hiding and target gets them as he's hiding

It's true that at least part of the modifier was shifted from attacker penalty to defender bonus. It makes more sense for guns, but I think it's good that magic uses the same rules.

It is a good change. Negative modifiers for things like cover have weird consequences like a mage/shooter glitching and having his spell or gun backfire more often because of cover. So it stops silly things like every time the characters grab cover the cops have there guns jam almost 1/4 of the time they shoot.

The thing is the SR fiction has described it as mind rape virtually from the get go. So it is and always has been rape like violation according to the game fiction.