So, I'm reading the rules for ally conjuration in Street Magic, which leads me to the rules for inhabitation. SM says that a True Form merge consumes the vessel and the spirit gains the powers of Astral Form and Materialization. Regular, materializing spirits have both those powers by default. So, if I understand the rules, if you create an inhabitating ally spirit, and it gets 2+ net hits on its inhabitation test, the end result is basically identical to what you would have gotten by creating a materializing spirit in the first place. Is this correct? Are there any particular advantages to hybrid or flesh forms, or reasons why the magician would try to influence the inhabitation test in that direction?

If you get a flesh form merge, then what you've basically got is a person who is posessed by the bug spirit, that person is destroyed and the bug inhabits his form though.

Each one has advantages depending on the vessel. For instance, one of the methods allows the spirit to use the vessel's cyberware, while the others don't. I don't have my book handy, sadly, so I can't look it up and my memory on the subject sucks. But there are definite advantages and disadvantages to each option.

Personally, I'd find a lot more use for a normal ally spirit with Possession rather than Inhabitation. Since you have to be a possession mage yourself, you'll basically have a spirit that you can let possess you that never runs out of services. This becomes even more tantalizing once you get Channeling. You can also have it possess your enemies, specially prepared gadgets or bodies (be they corpses, plasteel mannequinns, etc.), or whatever else. It's just a lot more useful with Possession. While an Inhabitation Ally Spirit can be pretty powerful, it comes with a bunch of weaknesses, too. Especially since you can't guarantee getting the specific type of merging you're after. And once you do it, well, that's pretty much it. It's stuck in that form.

The specific scenario that I'm imagining is a materialization-tradition magician creating an inhabitation ally. Knowing now that deliberately trying for a True Form is basically a waste of effort (since I could just conjure a materialization ally and dispense with the intermediary step), I'm now thinking of having the ally inhabit a heavily armed and armored humanoid golem, and using Binding to influence the merge toward a "flesh" form (steel form?).

How about have it possess a Tomino?

What's a Tomino? Or did you mean an Otomo? I'm thinking something a little more pink-mohawk.

I don't think it'd be able to use the 'armed' parts very easily, although simpler things like Crossbows, being mechanical, yes, and non smartlinked weapons. You'd have to buy it golem sized guns and give it the firearm skills.

The Tomino is the high-combat version, look in the Large Drones section.

Hybrid Form merges are ideal since the resulting entity can use all forms of electronic devices, whereas no other form can (not even Flesh). They can also make full use of implants. Hybrid Forms can essentially become spellcasting spirit-hackers (although they obviously couldn't cast while hacking...).

Also, for some really interesting ideas for spirits, take a look at the thread in my signature.

A Flesh Form spirit maintains the same appearance, skills and knowledge as the host. It also has Extended Masking equal to its Edge. Imagine the kind of shit you could pull by merging your ally spirit into a kidnapped Prime Runner or, better yet high-level, Yakuza member. Now, he's not just a ghost buddy, he's a top-notch contact.

Sick and Evil, yes, but it's hard to argue with the benefits.

I'm wondering if anyone else thinks its odd that a flesh form merge which gives access to all the memories and skills in the victims brain does not allow use of DNI, and a hybrid merge which destroys a lot of the neural connections which makes up memory, and should warp the circuitry rendering it inoperable allows for use of DNI?

I'm still trying to figure out the goofiness that is spirit senses.

As dual-natured beings, they shouldn't have any more trouble viewing vid screens or photographs than any other dual-natured being... but for some reason, they can't. Same goes for what you mentioned. It's a whole bunch of nonsense that, somehow, is supposed to make it "balanced." Because, God forbid a materialized spirit be able to read a digital display. That's game breaking right there!

I'm fine with materialized spirits only having astral vision. They're pretty strong already, and they're spirits. It's fluffy. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

Neraph beat me too it, but, yeah, a possessed Tomino is more or less the Omega Spawn you're looking for. If you go possession vs. inhabitation you can hot swap bodies as well.

ditto

The problem is that it's inconsistent and doesn't make any sense. They're viewing the physical realm. They're part of the physical realm. But, for some reason, a video screen is just too much for them -- and only them. Even your argument doesn't make any sense. How does a spirit being able to look at a monitor break the game? Why isn't it okay for them, but it is okay for ghouls or any other dual-natured being?

It's just... nonsensical.

You're right, it just doesn't bother me.
It's fiction with highly abstract mechanics. Lots of things don't make sense. As long as it's internally consistent it doesn't ruin the fun.

Like I said, they're spirits. I think it makes sense and is fine. Can ghouls see video screens? I thought they were blind. So, I feel, are spirits.

I think the point the good doctor is making is that it isn't internally consistent for one dual-natured being to be able to read an electronic display while another dual-natured being cannot. That's what internal consistency means.

Good point. I guess it just doesn't bother me. It's been with us since at least SR2 and I've just kind of accepted it as part of the setting.

I don't see how being dual-natured matters.

It doesn't, or at least Shouldn't... which is, I think, the point the good Doc is trying to make...

Keep the Faith

I don't think so. He seems to be saying that being dual-natured means you can see physically. No reason for that.

Uh, that's exactly what dual-natured means. Running Wild p. 205: "Several types of critters are dual-natured, allowing them to interact with the astral and physical planes equally. [...] Dual-natured beings are able to focus on either plane and shift their perceptions as a Free Action." Not to mention the countless other references to it.

No. A ghoul can't see in the physical, unless you get cyber eyes. Dual-natured means *interact*.

A typical ghoul cannot see in the Physical, because he becomes Blind when the change occurs... so therefore he could not "See" regardless, unless he replaced his now useless eyes with Cyber Eyes, at which point he can SEE again, and can even see the screens of computers and such... it is not a Quality of being Dual Natured, it is a Quality of being Blind...

Keep the Faith

Exactly. I'm saying, for the third time, that it makes perfect sense for *me* for spirits to be blind, relying on their astral sight. I'm not (and have not been) saying that it's RAW. My whole point is that dual-natured implies nothing about your sensory apparatus *except* astral sight.

Hey, No problems...

Keep the Faith

What this is saying, and why spirits have it, is so they can freely interact with physical objects (without a -2 dicepool) while only using their Assensing and seeing on the Astral to do so. It does not mean they develope senses on both planes, just that they do not take the standard penalty for viewing the Astral from the Physical.

EDIT: This also better explains why they can't see digital displays - they don't actually develope physical senses while Materialized (or what have you). They still are using their senses on the Astral, just without any penalty, and they are incapable of seeing digital displays for the same reason a projecting mage should.

No it's not. That's one aspect of it. It's called "Dual Natured" for a reason. Not "Physical Perception." Not "Reverse Astral Perception." But "Dual-Natured." When they materialize, they very much become as much physical as they are astral. That's the whole point of the ability, the description, and the flavor. This whole inability to view video screens is some off-handed remark in obscure areas of the rules that are full of similarly stupid comments and sub-rules..

No, actually, that's the only aspect of it.


(emphasis added)

See? No mention whatsoever of them gaining physical senses spontaneously.

Exactly.

Oy.

If it worked the way you guys think it works -- and which you've even admitted is your own house rule -- then they wouldn't even need Dual Natured. Because, you know, it's fucking useless. They don't need to have the penalty to be reduced for viewing things on the astral because they don't have a penalty for viewing things on the astral to begin with. In fact, with your take, they're not even materializing. They're just manifesting. They're not really physical, they're just kinda-sorta when it suits your personal whims.

Which is utter bullshit.

so how can a Beast Spirit have Enhanced Senses if there were no senses to enhance?

Oy.

I'm trying to see where in the rules it actually says it gives them any physical senses. And I'm not seeing it. So unless you want to post a rule instead of just say that it happens because you said so, the "house rule" actually seems to be the actual rule.


Maybe because the Enhanced Sense actually gives them a sense?

I think it's interesting that this thread has now turned into a debate whether or not spirits actually can see, hear, and smell simply because someone thought it was wierd that they don't see images on TV screens.

I didn't say it was a house rule, I said it was my interpretation. No need to get all yourself-like, Dr. Funkenstein.

Enhanced Sense can indeed give new senses (Pixie's Astral Sight), which makes perfect sense. My point continues to be that nothing about dual-natured, which you claim is the crux of this whole thing, necessarily gives sight, hearing, smell, etc. Why wouldn't it give other senses, then? What about thermo, e-sense, magnetosense? Spirits are not 'animals' (metahuman or otherwise), and I see no reason why we can't explain their RAW limits in this obvious way.

Neither am I saying it's impossible for a spirit to have any or all of these senses, nor that you can't house-rule that they simply *do*.

Do you think that a merged spirit, an inhabiting spirit with a permanent physical body, can observe light photons coming from a screen?

Depends on the body.

Running Wild may not make any specific mention of it, because it doesn't need to . The BBB already does:

That just means they can use astral perception and *whatever physical senses they have* simultaneously.

And if spirits didn't have physical senses, they couldn't use some of their powers or skills, Low-Light Vision for instance (Spirit of Beasts), or Perception in general (all spirits).
Unless you attribute spherical detection to astral perception, this opens a whole other can of worms. Would a spirit know that it is touched by a mundane, if it does not perceive the act of touching astrally?

Except that the abilities of the Beast Spirit give them senses they didn't originally have... like low-light vision.

Somehow I can see mages in the SR universe arguing on many of these same points... I think it'd be safest for us to just say "MAGIC" and be done with it.

Obviously you have to decide, but my point is that there *is* a decision to be made. If they have bodies (and they do), touch makes sense, so give them touch. Do they have eyes or ears? Do they have e-sense, thermo vision, smell? (Maybe, maybe not). It's not a big deal to have spirits using astral sight for the majority of their sight needs (dual-natured means no -2, right?), because this is simpler, fluffier, and accounts for the 'can't see screens' fact.

It's just how I see it. I have no idea what the RAW/RAI 'truly' is.

(Since you keep mentioning the Beast Spirit as an example, I'd say they *can* see screens/etc. Low-light makes sense for that, to me.)