Hey all, I'm working on a Cyber-troll character with a full-body replacement (Head, Torso, Arms and legs) and I came
up with a question:
If a character has a full body replacement can they still get any use out of Synaptic Boosters?
The description of Boosters says it affects the Nerves of the Spinal Column and as a Cyber-Torso Only really replaces the Outer Shell and not the spine and organs I'd think it would work, but I'm not 100% certain of that.

Of course it works. Because the rules say so.
The only thing that does anything else with the spine is the reaction enhancement cyberware, as far as i know.

Yeah you can definitely use the booster, but if your going for full body replacement maybe you want to look into rigging your own body.

It was a matter of essence Cost. .5 esc for booster was the only way to cram in reaction enhancer. Originally I was going to go with a drone body but the right-size drone was stupid expensive...8P

Definitely not possible at CharGen and Jarheads shouldn't be possible afterwards either.

Don't forget move-by-wire.



I think he's talking about turning yourself into a biodrone.

In SR4, basically everything works regardless of cyberlimbs. Dermal mods, Enhanced Articulation, whatever.

I ALLWAYS forget MBW.

Movebywire is amazing, though.

I liked the SR3 version better. :/ Oh well.

Why should a Jarhead be impossible after character creation? I can think of a lot of reasons to allow a character to have access to a Jarhead package... Hell, it is generally cheaper to have a Jarhead Conversion, than to have a Full Body Conversion...

Keep the Faith

You like TLE-x? Why, exactly?

I, For one, am glad that they worked that particular bug out of the Move By Wire System...

Keep the Faith

the main problem with a jarhead is availibility and cost. if we assume you have the highest possible starting budget of 330,000 and that you also have at least one level of restricted gear (for the cyberskull), then its possible to get a sub-par cyborg. lets also assume the 10% essence savings from biocompatibility.

alphaware, the full set of 6 obvious cyberlimbs is 4.5 essence and 180k, before we start adding in customization and enhancements. the bioware would only cost half essence, so thats not a problem. however only 1 level of synaptic booster could fit as expensive as it is. that only leaves 70k left to buy upgrades to those cyberlimbs to raise them above 3/3/3. thats not enough to buy all of the possible customization that could fit for the availability at the alphaware costs.

the concept can work, but a starting character cant really afford enough stuff to actually get good enough stats to be worth it. your generally better off using other combinations of cyber and bio.

What you are describing , though, is NOT a Jarhead... it is a Full Conversion Body Replacement, which is a far cry from a Jarhead...

Keep the Faith

It's actually just A-Guy-With-4-Cyberlimbs-And-2-Shells, but same difference.

Not the same... Not really at all...

One has their brain in a jar and encased within a vehicle, running everything that he does through Matrix Actions...
The other has actual meat parts under that torso and skull casing, and is generally more susceptible to things like mages and such... the Jarhead is still at least OR5+; not so with the Full Conversion Replacement...

In our game, we have tangled with both... I much prefer fighting the Conversion over the Jarhead when it comes to fights... A Conversion will still suffer Stun damage if the damage of whatever weapon does not penetrate the armor... Vehicles ignore Stun Damage completely...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

… Same *difference*. As in, still not a jarhead at all. I was saying that it's dumb to call it 'Full Conversion', that's all.

No other name actually fits, and it is identical to the Full Conversion Borg from Rifts, so the terminology actually works out well, in my opinion at least...

Keep the Faith

I was actually thinking more like the Dragoon 'Borgs from Cyberpunk myself and I knew there was no way to start as a Jarhead unless the GM wants to work it into the game for story purposes. And sadly there is really no way to start as a Rigger/Borg combo that I know of as the only Drone that is even remotely viable for it starts at like 350,000y and that is WAY over the max available...8P

I basically came up with a concept that I'm sure others have had before me; the quadriplegic Rigger but runs around wired into his own drone body. Given the impossibility of that money-wise I went the full-body replacement routine (Bio-Compatibility and Alphaware for reduced essence loss.). Given that others have done similar creations I wanted mine to be a little different so I made it a 13-year old kid who's body had been ravaged by a terrorist bio-weapon attack. The damage is so great his body had to be largely replaced and it's still not helping as he is slowly dying (Borrowed Time) and his only hope of living is to go Full Cyborg...unfortunately that can be hideously expensive. He's also somewhat obsessed with Trolls and decided to have his new body up-sized to that of a troll. Now that I think of it that won't actually work...Maybe as a very short troll...a Midget troll? That could be funny in and of itself...
Ah well, not that I'll ever get to play the damn thing; I can't find a game in my area...8(

Two words: Delta Clinic.

Always depends on the game in question, of course, but I dare to claim that the average starting character does not have access to one.

a 6/6 Contact should help with that.

Do you mean enhancers for reaction ala Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Boosters, or do you actually mean Reaction Enchancers? Because the latter do not stack with Synaptic Boosters.

He might put in a word for you, but something crazy expensive like a cyborg should require more than an exec saying "hey, I know this guy, we're really close friends, how about we give him some delta-grade treatment?".

I always see one problem with cutting-endge gear on the streets: Every rival corp will want to get that gear and reverse engineer it, so the original manufacturer is going to make damn sure their merchandise does not go missing. Every runner with that kind of hardware will either be a corp slave under constant surveillance and with kink bombs by the dozen, or a serious threat to the corp's profit and IP which sould result in something like this on a regular basis.

You are Veteran Police Officer Alexander James Murphy, and you happen to save someone from the higher Echolons of an Security and Arms Mega Corporation.
You basically lose 90% of your body during this.
They can repair you. They can make you stronger, faster . . better . .
You will become their adaptable ultimate soldier/peace-keeper/bodyguard/super-cop.

OK, there's 3 references in there, anybody wanna guess?

Please. Its only threshold 20. Thats not hard at all, with a Medicine test, and a medical Shop or Facility, and a robot-or-metahuman assistant or two.
Harder to deal with is the Surgery Damage - as removing your brain is a Major Operation, its 7P damage each hour they have to work on you to hit that threshold. Sure, you can soak it as normal, but you better use edge before they finish.

Difficult, sure, but hardly impossible.

One Word: Availability

By definition, a Jarhead will not be an average starting character... or any starting character in fact...

But after play begins, it is certainly possible. It may take a while, but eventually it can be done... It took my current character 2 years and 300 Karma before he found a Delta Clinic that would work with him, but eventually it happened...

All tables are indeed different, but the rules support the availability and use of such medical facilities, you would just have to have it worked into the storyline somehow...

Keep the Faith

But... Delta-Grade equipment is not so rare that the MegaCorps do not have access to it... in fact, in 2072 I would be completely surprised if the Big 10 did not ALL have a Delta Clinic or two (or at least access to one or two)... so I do not see it as so rare that is it unuseable or unplayable... it is just not something that you will hand out to a Starting Character...

Keep the Faith

Sorry... I am drawing a Blank here...
Wanna Help me out?

Keep the Faith

Oh, come on. This can be fixed at character generation, with the 'my Uncle is a Deltaware Surgeon' contact.

Also, before you debate what counts as a deltaware facility and what they can do, you all should really go read Augmentation's section on it. Deltaware really isn't that hard to deal with at all. Its just seriously, seriously expensive.

Actually, No... Surgery Damage is only inflicted at the end of a Procedure... See Augmentation, Page 125, in the "Under the Knife" Header, Surgery Damage Paragraph...

Keep the Faith

Haha. So its even -easier- to get brainjar'd. Nice eye.

And Seriously, Seriously Customized to the End-User... which is why it is so expensive...

Keep the Faith

And all you need to play a cyborg out the door is Restricted Gear: Cyborg Adaptation, and 50 BP on gear.

Seriously, good luck trying to afford anything else beyond the 250K CCU cost, but you can play a jarhead out the door.

CCU's are actaully a pretty amazing deal for what they come with.

But then you'd be a brain in a jar, not a shadowrunner. If you manage to get the rest of the stuff needed, then you can be a shadowrunning jarhead out of chargen. Just don't cry, when you starve, because you didn't get your nutrients, while running through the Redmond Barrens.

Yes, A CCU is very cool indeed...

But, If you are using the rules for Cyborg Adaptation to determine the availability of the CCU, you are doing it wrong... the Cyborg Adaptation is a Vehicle Modification (Availability 18) and is NOT the CCU itself, it is a Modification to a Drone so that a CCU may be implanted.

In addition, There is absolutely no listed Availability for the CCU in any of the books that I have looked through, and a Delta Clinic (Required to actually perform the CCU implantation) is an Availability 24 (not 20 as you suggested earlier), so is not available at character Creation, let alone that DELTA WARE is unavailable at Character Creation, as a Starting Character is not allowed to have such ware until after the game begins...

So No, You cannot begin play as a Jarhead, unless expressely provided for by the GM...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

First line is basically Robocop in a Nutshell.
Third line is basically 1 Million Dollar Man in a Nutshell.
Fourth line is a bit obscured, i will give you that. Adaptable Ultimate Soldier was meant to mean Universal Soldier ^^

Ahhh... Never saw it, which is probably why I did not make the Connection...
Thanks

Keep the Faith

Hmmm...
Robocop

6 Million Dollar Man

Ummm... Soldier?

You don't -quite- have it straight. The CCU's cost is part of the Cyborg Adaptation mod - just 250k more. Seriously, go check the table in arsenal(though this may be a Second Printing/Errata thing). Just think of it like buying a gun, that happens to have a Smartlinked version available for +cash.(like the praetor)

A really, really expensive tack-on cost.

As you said, its a vehicle mod, not deltaware.

This is where I have to disagree with you... If you read Cyborg Adaptation, it is just a more involved version of Rigger adaptation... Unfortunately, the CCU is an additional Cost that is NOT included with the vehicle... it is an independant entity unto itself...

The Cyborg Adaptation is a Vehicle Mod...

The CCU is a Delta Grade, Organic System that applies to a Person... note that when it is created (Integrating the cybernetic/organic systems with the Brain) it reduces essence to 0.1... which indicates that it is INDEED Delta Grade Cyberware... and it even requires surgery, not a Build/Repair roll... so it is NOT part of the vehicle, at least until it has been installed within a vehicle with the requisite Adaptation Upgrade...

A CCU is an independant module that keeps the (Meta)Human Brain alive and functioning... It is not a cost of the Cyborg Adaptation itself; it is an independant cost that is REQUIRED before the vehicle can function as a Cyborg... I can have a Cyborg Adapted vehicle, and still not have a CCU to run it...

Keep the Faith

Yeah, that's BS, and if you bothered to actually READ the mod, instead of spouting the party line and complaining about being unable to find pricing/availability, you'd know better. The first paragraph does indeed tell you that its basically a Rigger Adaptation Plus - and the second tells you what the CCU does, when you pay for it, at the cost listed. Yeah. The second paragraph - what the CCU does - doesn't magically dissappear, just because you insist that all the mod does is what you say it does.

[img]http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/9079/cyborgadapt.jpg[/img]
Blam. Availability, cost. Moving on..



You will also note the order of printing. Augmentation came first(July 07), then Arsenal(Jan 08). Therefore, the arsenal rules are newer, and take precedence - but they also tell you to look at the other book for what you can do with your CCU. And, you know, the devs going 'whoopsie. We made all these great rules for cyborgs, but forgot to tell them how to get one. Oh! I know! Lets shoehorn it into arsenal!'

Now think about the steps involved.

1)You configure a drone to operate with a cyborg interface with the Modificat. You may acquire a CCU at the same time, because it has a price listed right there.
1a) If you already have a CCU, and just want to set up another body to use it with, you just apply the basic mod, without the CCU. If you do not want another CCU, you are not forced to pay for it.
Once you actually have a CCU, then you move onto Augmentation to deal with putting a brain inside it.(delta clinic, essense loss, sanity checks, et cetera).
2)Once you have all of those steps complete - a configured body, a ccu to plug in, a brain inside it - then you have a functional jarhead. Easy-peasy, rules are compatable, no harm done.

Being able to build something yourself does not stop interest in how others do it
So unless the corp is 100.1% sure of a character's loyality, sending him on the street with their latest tech is just unrealistic. Especially if it is not just "ordinary" deltaware, but something brand new like a CCU.


@Udoshi:

Sure, and a rigger adaption comes with a tricked-out commlink and control rig right off the shelf...and if you call now you'll also get a dwarf with all vehicle skills as a free bonus.



Augmentation is quite explicit on how to get cyborgs: You don't, they are NPCs and McGuffins.

I meant as in gaining an additional Initiative Pass.

last i checked, they were actually a remarkably *bad* deal, with the only thing you gain being that you're really small.

with the drawbacks that you're likely in short order to become nuttier than a fruitcake, you are arbitrarily limited in your skills, you can't get any more cyberware (note: the cyber that does the equivalent of what the CCU does is cheaper and would leave you with essence to play with assuming you use *standard grade* never mind delta ware). oh, and you need a constant supply of a hard-to-get chemical cocktail (which, i might add, is a major part of the reason you're going to become nuttier than a fruitcake to begin with) and regular psychiatric examinations.

really, if you were to just play a character who's arms and legs got chopped off and never replaced, and install a bunch of 'ware, you'd probably have a much better deal in terms of BP, and in terms of essence available for future use.

the cyborg only looks like a good deal when you compare it to trying to cram in a full cyber body with the added 'ware of the CCU. if you actually compare the benefits of the CCU to the benefits of just being a rigger to begin with, the CCU looks like an overpriced piece of junk that does nothing more than make you fit int a handful of specially designed bodies that you could just as plausibly fit into (with some modifications, i suppose, but you'd be taking stuff out not adding, so it shouldn't take up slots) if you were an exceptionally small metahuman (such as a gnome) with your arms and legs chopped off for no apparent reason.

I just did some math and you could potentially start out with a good cyborg body but it would require GM approval.
It's possible to have a crap cyborg body that does not require a GM's approval.

Option 1:
1 - Born Rich (10bp) + In Debt (25bp; 125,000y) + 60 Bp (300.00y) = 425.000y
2 - Restricted Gear (x1) + CCU + Cyborg Conversion = 265.000y
3 - Restricted Gear (x2, stacked; this would require GM approval) + Mitsuhama Otomo Drone Body = 150.000y
Total = 415,000y [leaving 10.000y for extras]
- This option would also require GM's Approval for going over 35pts worth of Positive Qualities

Option 2:
1 - Born Rich (10bp) + 60 Bp = 300.000y
2 - Restricted Gear (x1) + CCU + Cyborg Conversion = 265.000y
3 - Renraku Manservant-3 = 2.500
Total = 267.500y [leaving 32.500 for options]]
This option No need for more than 1 instance Restricted Gear Option and no need to get "In Debt"
With no Vehicle modifications that I can see for increasing the Body this option this would pretty much be a useless option.

So while it IS within the realm of possibility to start as a Cyborg money-wise; one option requires GM approval and the other kind of sucks...8P
So unless there are rules for creating Drones from scratch its not really an option...oh well, stick with what I got I guess until I can get it converted or I find a GM that likes my concept enough to roll with it.

No, rigger adaptation doesn't: Because it doesn't say it does. Commlinks, control rigs, simsense boosters and other rigger accessories have their own entries and availability to actually get them.

A CCU on the other hand, comes with some hardware - because it says it does. You get what you pay for, and what you pay for is quite clearly shown here:
[img]http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/9079/cyborgadapt.jpg[/img]

renfield007: Your In Debt math is way, way, way off. For 25bp, its 25,000, not 125k. (I can see you went 25x5000, but in actuality you want 5 levels of the quality x 5000 nuyen each. The max cash possible to start with ought to be 330,000, for max Resources, Born Rich, and In Debt.)

Jaid: Possibly. If you can't get quality maintainance for your jarhead, they are going to go batshit crazy. But consider the cost for what you DO get with a CCU.
A rating 4 commlink(a few k), Hotsim module(5k), simsense booster(65k), control rig(10k), rating 6 damage compensator(90k), skillwire 5(10k), 12 cybernetic capacity, chemseal(contact/inhalation immunity). That's 188500 in deltaware. Thats 188500 nuyen or so(depending on how you cost the r4 commlink). Suddenly, an Akiyama seems like a bargian deal, and CCU's almost affordable.

Okay so Option #1 is right out the window and option #2 is pretty useless, except maybe as an NPC...aaaaand that puts me back to square one!

so wait... your claim is that by purchasing a cyborg adaptation for a drone (or having a drone that comes with cyborg adaptation built-in) comes complete with a 250,000 nuyen CCU as well? as opposed to that line just telling you that you *also* need to buy a CCU for that cyborg adaptation to be useful?

well, i guess that explains why you think it's a good deal, then. but i really don't think that's how it was meant to be interpreted.

besides which, there's still the fact that you can just get all the same ware as can be found in a CCU for considerably less than the cost of the CCU itself (though actually i would ignore the damage compensators and buy something else that doesn't suck instead), play a really small rigger, and have pretty much all of the same advantages without the guarantee of eventually going stark raving mad. or you could even be a normal sized rigger.

and on a side note, the horseman PMV with advanced cargo module is actually pretty easy to refluff as a humanoid drone if you swap out the wheels for legs.

All this yelling about nothing. It clearly lists Cyborg Adaptation as 15,000¥, and *mentions* that the CCU is 250,000¥. Which is what you're *both* saying. No one's saying you get something for nothing… and you still need 267,500¥ *plus* all hospital fees, *plus* mechanical/biological/psychological maintenance (= significant lifestyle cost). So, much more than 267,500¥, and that's just for the most basic body.

I had a question, though: in that 12 Cap, what can you put? Bodyware, headware? I assume no eye or ear. What makes sense for a brainjar?

yes. that, exactly. Thank you.


The funniest thing I've come up with is Cyberfins, an Internal Air Tank, and an Ultrasound sensor - brainjar submarine. On a more serious note, nanohives and datajacks are great. Probably a smartlink in there, just cause.

Its also worth noting that augmentation's CCU procedure sets a subject's Essence to 0.1 from whatever it was before, but mentions you can keep cultured bioware at the GM's discretion. Honestly, you ought to be able to keep some other Headware, too, like a math SPU.