Just had an idea for a optional rule last night coming home from a SR game. I always thought it would be kind of odd for a weak strength person to try and shoot a bfg, like lets say granny tries to shoot at thugs with an Ares Predator. or a 13 yr old kid tries to shoot a Ruger Thunderbolt. I'd imagine this would cause one hell of a sting.
My idea is a rule to handle people firing guns too big for them. here's the idea:
firing a weapon too big for you can be hazardous to your health. anytime you shoot a gun that is greater than twice your strength in power, you incur the damage code of the weapon in virtual stun damage. When the Stun Box is full, each additional shot roll 2D6+(# of additional shots fired this combat), if the added result is more than the power of the weapon used, you suffer a light physical wound. Recoil modifiers -1 from the weapons power when calculating whether or not the gun is too large for your person.
What this is designed to do is basically realistically model what firing a .50 cal when your a teenager would be like. you fire, it stings, you fire more, it stings more, eventually, you're going to sprain your gun hand, keep firing after that, and ligaments and muscles are going to be damaged.
What do you guys think?
Full Version: When Weapons Attack
Average human strength: 2-3
Light Pistol Power: 6
Are you honestly implying that normal people should take stun damage everytime they fire a pistol?
Light Pistol Power: 6
Are you honestly implying that normal people should take stun damage everytime they fire a pistol?
Plus I'm definitely max 2 for Strength, and I never had any problems with assault rifles.
The realistic results of shooting a gun you're too "weak" to use are a)Being wildly off-target, as you flinch and let the gun get away from you and b)Possibly dropping the weapon if it's really big (think elephant rifle) or you're a real pansy.
Since most guns weren't made to be used by weighlifters, most of this can be easily overcome with training, which is more about teaching yourself to react appropriately to the recoil and to compensate for it, then about getting strong enough to hold the weapon completely rigid. (the only way of doing that is screwing a weapon into a vise, anyway) So you can easily argue that this sort of thing is covered prefectly well by skill levels.
If you really want to go with something like that, you'd be better off doing things like applying additional recoil modifiers on every shot, or maybe forcing the shooter to makes some sort of easy knock-down type test to see if they drop the gun. Shooting a gun that's more then you can handle is not like getting repeatedly hit with a baseball bat...
As for when to apply these modifiers... Assuming the scale is 1-6 for normal humans, then I'm definitely somewhere on the low end of 5. I've fired .50 cal handguns before, and I still don't have a prayer of holding the gun rigid as it fires, and have to compensate for the recoil instead. For that matter, the same is true of a "wimpy" 9mm.
Since most guns weren't made to be used by weighlifters, most of this can be easily overcome with training, which is more about teaching yourself to react appropriately to the recoil and to compensate for it, then about getting strong enough to hold the weapon completely rigid. (the only way of doing that is screwing a weapon into a vise, anyway) So you can easily argue that this sort of thing is covered prefectly well by skill levels.
If you really want to go with something like that, you'd be better off doing things like applying additional recoil modifiers on every shot, or maybe forcing the shooter to makes some sort of easy knock-down type test to see if they drop the gun. Shooting a gun that's more then you can handle is not like getting repeatedly hit with a baseball bat...
As for when to apply these modifiers... Assuming the scale is 1-6 for normal humans, then I'm definitely somewhere on the low end of 5. I've fired .50 cal handguns before, and I still don't have a prayer of holding the gun rigid as it fires, and have to compensate for the recoil instead. For that matter, the same is true of a "wimpy" 9mm.
The reason I thought of this was because of some people I've heard have gotten sore after shooting a large caliber pistol several times. just trying to find a way to realistically model that. maybe apply this rule to people lacking the appropriate skill or a low skill in firing pistols?
Shooting large caliber pistols can make your hand sting like hell, and it can make your arm sore - but none of those are really noticeable or immediate enough to have an effect during the typical 15-30 second Shadowrun combat with adrenaline pumping.
Now that I think about it, you could give them an extra +1 TN on all shooting tests in the next combat they get into, provided not much time has passed. (since that's when they'd be feeling the soreness, and would have had the time to think about how badly their hands are going to sting the next time they pull the trigger)
I still think the disadvantages for defualting or having a low pistols skill are enough that it's really not necessary, though...
Now that I think about it, you could give them an extra +1 TN on all shooting tests in the next combat they get into, provided not much time has passed. (since that's when they'd be feeling the soreness, and would have had the time to think about how badly their hands are going to sting the next time they pull the trigger)
I still think the disadvantages for defualting or having a low pistols skill are enough that it's really not necessary, though...
An assault rifle is better padded -- the stock is nestled against the shooter's shoulder, better absorbing the impact with the whole body.
A handgun isn't supported nearly as well -- the hand/wrist is made up of a lot of little bones to be vibrated, whereas the shoulder is two bones and generally a fair amount of padding.
SR has always had a tenuous relationship between stats as meaningful values and the game universe -- I'd just let the idea go. Neat in theory, but difficult to implement.
If the Shooter's Str x2 < 1/2 handgun's Power, the shooter suffers a +1 tn penalty. (if you absolutely gotta)
-Siege
A handgun isn't supported nearly as well -- the hand/wrist is made up of a lot of little bones to be vibrated, whereas the shoulder is two bones and generally a fair amount of padding.
SR has always had a tenuous relationship between stats as meaningful values and the game universe -- I'd just let the idea go. Neat in theory, but difficult to implement.
If the Shooter's Str x2 < 1/2 handgun's Power, the shooter suffers a +1 tn penalty. (if you absolutely gotta)
-Siege
I know it wasn´t what you said, but I come to think of an idea I had about recoil modifiers decreasing for really strong characters. Then I realised that would mean lots of characters imitating Arnold Schwartsneger, shooting one assaultrifle in each hand from the hip just ´cause he´s so damn strong.
This rule is a demonstration of the difference between recoil, which will throw your aim off even with very light weapons, and felt recoil which is what can potentially hurt you. I think this is an interesting idea, particularly for very heavy weapons like assault cannons/AMRs and such. The idea that recoil can be so unpleasant as to cause injury is a decent way to make players think twice about using a particular kind of weapon that is effectively beyond their character's ability to control. But if you want to be realistic about it, you should probably deal with recoil and felt recoil seperately.
Like mmu1 said, strength has very little to do with how well a person can effectively absorb and displace recoil energy. If I would apply any physical attribute to an opposed test in this fashion, it would be Body. Muscle tissue is relatively dense and heavy, which is probably why a lot of people make the assumption that more strength helps control recoil. In fact, sheer strength can go a long way toward working against you if you don't know what you're doing. Strength = rigidity, and rigidity is not always a good thing. It's simply the mass of the tissue that does the trick (which would be represented by your Body attribute).
Of course, as far as the game is concerned, that doesn't change much. According to the rules, the average human will also have a Body rating of 3. Body and average skill devided by two would be... 3. Body, Reaction and average skill devided by 3 would be, you guessed it, 3. But it's the skill rating that makes it interesting. If the character has a lower skill rating or no appropriate skill at all, it takes a decent chunk out of their ability to mitigate the effects of recoil. If they have a higher skill rating, it helps.
Another way you might go about it would be to apply an opposed recoil test for heavy weapons, say Power/3 L, resisted with a "Recoil Pool" of Body+Reaction+Skill/3.
Like mmu1 said, strength has very little to do with how well a person can effectively absorb and displace recoil energy. If I would apply any physical attribute to an opposed test in this fashion, it would be Body. Muscle tissue is relatively dense and heavy, which is probably why a lot of people make the assumption that more strength helps control recoil. In fact, sheer strength can go a long way toward working against you if you don't know what you're doing. Strength = rigidity, and rigidity is not always a good thing. It's simply the mass of the tissue that does the trick (which would be represented by your Body attribute).
Of course, as far as the game is concerned, that doesn't change much. According to the rules, the average human will also have a Body rating of 3. Body and average skill devided by two would be... 3. Body, Reaction and average skill devided by 3 would be, you guessed it, 3. But it's the skill rating that makes it interesting. If the character has a lower skill rating or no appropriate skill at all, it takes a decent chunk out of their ability to mitigate the effects of recoil. If they have a higher skill rating, it helps.
Another way you might go about it would be to apply an opposed recoil test for heavy weapons, say Power/3 L, resisted with a "Recoil Pool" of Body+Reaction+Skill/3.
Raygun, I've always been impressed with your gun knowledge. aside from the kudos, I do think my idea needs work(otherwise I might not have posted it 
) recoil pool is an interesting theory. not sure if I'd want to make it an opposed roll or a TN, with a TN I'd definitely say Power/2 opposed roll Power/3 sounds good. also don't want to forget to apply recoil reduction modifiers as well, prior to dividing the power. this should accurately represent the recoil energy delivered to the user. and they can use reaction pool split by however many shots they make that round. I think this would very well reflect what I was looking for 
I'd probably also apply this rule to Pistols and heavy weapons, since pistols you are not using your torso to absorb the recoil, you are just using your wrist/arm.
lets see if this makes things better.
Recoil Pool = body+reaction+skill/3
Pistols = (power/2)TN vs. recoil pool
Heavy Weapons = power/3 vs recoil pool in an opposed test.
does this make more sense
) recoil pool is an interesting theory. not sure if I'd want to make it an opposed roll or a TN, with a TN I'd definitely say Power/2 opposed roll Power/3 sounds good. also don't want to forget to apply recoil reduction modifiers as well, prior to dividing the power. this should accurately represent the recoil energy delivered to the user. and they can use reaction pool split by however many shots they make that round. I think this would very well reflect what I was looking for I'd probably also apply this rule to Pistols and heavy weapons, since pistols you are not using your torso to absorb the recoil, you are just using your wrist/arm.
lets see if this makes things better.
Recoil Pool = body+reaction+skill/3
Pistols = (power/2)TN vs. recoil pool
Heavy Weapons = power/3 vs recoil pool in an opposed test.
does this make more sense
How about firing a heavy weapon without proper equipment (vehicle mount, tripod, gyro-unit, etc.) causes Light Stun with one-half the power of the weapon?
Then they have to make a knockdown test versus half the power of the weapon. If they roll fewer successes than the guns recoil, they are knocked back. If they roll no successes, they fall down.
Then they have to make a knockdown test versus half the power of the weapon. If they roll fewer successes than the guns recoil, they are knocked back. If they roll no successes, they fall down.
those things you suggest Zazen I think might already be accounted for in the present equation, since the opposed test amount is dependant on:
(power - recoil reduction modifiers{I.E. Gyros/Tripod/Recoil Comps/Stock})/3
correct me if I'm wrong
(power - recoil reduction modifiers{I.E. Gyros/Tripod/Recoil Comps/Stock})/3
correct me if I'm wrong
I was being slightly sarcastic. Those are the canon rules for firing heavy weapons by hand without stabilization, as found in the Cannon Companion.
| QUOTE (ShadowPhoenix) |
| also don't want to forget to apply recoil reduction modifiers as well, prior to dividing the power. |
Right. Muzzle brakes, tripods, gyro mounts, etc... will make a difference. It should be pointed out that while both are "gas vents", muzzle brakes and recoil compensators are generally designed to accomplish two different things, and this is a pretty good example of that. Recoil compensator ratings should be applied to reduce aiming modifiers due to recoil (gases are used to push the muzzle down), where as muzzle brakes would be used to reduce felt recoil (pain, what we're talking about here, gases are used to push the firearm away from the shooter's shoulder). Some do both.
| QUOTE (zazen) |
| I was being slightly sarcastic. Those are the canon rules for firing heavy weapons by hand without stabilization, as found in the Cannon Companion. |
I guess it might help if you have Cannon Companion. Sadly (in most cases, fortunately), some of us don't.
| QUOTE (ShadowPhoenix) |
| Recoil Pool = body+reaction+skill/3 Pistols = (power/2)TN vs. recoil pool |
So a Light Pistol would do 3L, with (BOD+R+Skill)/3 to resist? That's still pretty harsh, considering that I (2+3+2 or 2+3+3 for 2 Recoil Pool) never had the slightest problem with a 9mm pistol. With those rules, I should be heading for trouble whenever I fire any serious pistol (~56% chance every shot with a Light Pistol that I get significantly wounded), while IRL I fired that 9mm pistol a couple of hundred times without ever feeling any pain, soreness, anything.
Maybe you should bring the Damage Level into the equation or something.
I wouldn't even apply this to light pistols (GM discretion is a wonderful thing). You could change the divisor to reflect the weapon class. Say /4 in this case (nothing). But for particularly heavy pistols, /2 makes some sense.
Another interesting thing here is autofire. Power of the burst, or base power of the weapon?
Another interesting thing here is autofire. Power of the burst, or base power of the weapon?
| QUOTE (Aesir) |
| I know it wasn´t what you said, but I come to think of an idea I had about recoil modifiers decreasing for really strong characters. Then I realised that would mean lots of characters imitating Arnold Schwartsneger, shooting one assaultrifle in each hand from the hip just ´cause he´s so damn strong. |
They've already got rules for this. IIRC, they max out at 3 points of RC at 19 Strength or so.
~J
I like the pool idea but I think skill should be a much larger factor than body or reaction. Controlling recoil is as much skill as it is having the strength or mass of body to deal with the recoil. I know several very petit women that can shoot skeet and trap all day with a 12 gage and never get sore or bruised. I have also taken a 250 pound friend out for his first round of trap and after one round (25 birds) he was to sore to continue. His lack of skill not lack of strength or body mass is why he got hurt. Your body becomes use to recoil the more you shoot and you also learn what muscles to tense and what muscles to relax so as not to get hurt.
Also remember that guns, especially heavy rifles can be fitted with recoil systems and muzzle breaks. A good muzzle break and recoil system can reduce felt recoil 50-60%. Even the action type makes a big difference in felt recoil. The difference in recoil for the same cartridge fired from a fix battery gun like a bolt action and gas operated semi-auto is substantial.
Also remember that guns, especially heavy rifles can be fitted with recoil systems and muzzle breaks. A good muzzle break and recoil system can reduce felt recoil 50-60%. Even the action type makes a big difference in felt recoil. The difference in recoil for the same cartridge fired from a fix battery gun like a bolt action and gas operated semi-auto is substantial.
Brake, not break.
~J
~J
Once again the spell checker bites me in the arse!
Here's the thing-- As I recall, the "sore wrist" thing doesn't even count as a Light wound in Shadowrun. CC already has rules for being hurt by firing heavy weapons; so I think you want something reasonable for handguns.
Personally, I've only noticed a sore wrist after firing a lot of rounds at a range-- far more than I've had any character fire during a normal Shadowrun combat. (I can't recall firing over 150 rounds during any Shadowrun combat scene, and I can only recall firing more than 20 in game with vehicle-mounted weapons.)
So, this may be a simple "special effect". Just arbitrarily tell people that their wrist hurts-- not enough to actually impair them, but enough to be noticed. You may choose to apply actual damage in case of a fumble-- I'd suggest making it Stun damage, but on a botch, you could apply any penalty you like.
Personally, I've only noticed a sore wrist after firing a lot of rounds at a range-- far more than I've had any character fire during a normal Shadowrun combat. (I can't recall firing over 150 rounds during any Shadowrun combat scene, and I can only recall firing more than 20 in game with vehicle-mounted weapons.)
So, this may be a simple "special effect". Just arbitrarily tell people that their wrist hurts-- not enough to actually impair them, but enough to be noticed. You may choose to apply actual damage in case of a fumble-- I'd suggest making it Stun damage, but on a botch, you could apply any penalty you like.
I agree with Cain, the SR condition monitor represents particularly nasty cuts and bruises - do you really think that when you manage to stage down a hit from a PAC, or 10 rounds of FA from an Ares Alpha to nothing that it means you took the hit and it had no effect whatsoever? I don't think so, it basically means the hit only just grazed you, or your armour was sufficiently padded up in the affected area to soak the real damage, but it doesn't mean the hit didn't leave with some superficial cuts and bruising. Think about the next time your cat scratches or bites you, sure it hurts but nine times out of ten it doesn't actually impede anything you do afterwards in the slightest. Damage represented by the condition monitor is enough to impede everything you do to quite a significant degree for at least for the rest of the day, so imho a sore wrist from shooting too much is unlikely to ever impede you so much as to make it harder to do anything else for the rest of the day.
Obviously if you want to implement such a rule that's up to you, but personally I don't see the point since a) most all PCs have at least Pistols 3, which would be sufficiently skilled to know how to hold the weapon properly to avoid such injury, and 2) most PCs don't get to fire enough rounds from a pistol all at once to warrant a check to see if it is hurting. As for larger weapons, my experience tells me that if you use it properly it doesn't hurt [the firer] significantly, and nor should any weapon up to an MMG, consequently IMG the heavy weapon rules only apply to HMGs and ACs, and even then only when firing hip or shoulder.
Obviously if you want to implement such a rule that's up to you, but personally I don't see the point since a) most all PCs have at least Pistols 3, which would be sufficiently skilled to know how to hold the weapon properly to avoid such injury, and 2) most PCs don't get to fire enough rounds from a pistol all at once to warrant a check to see if it is hurting. As for larger weapons, my experience tells me that if you use it properly it doesn't hurt [the firer] significantly, and nor should any weapon up to an MMG, consequently IMG the heavy weapon rules only apply to HMGs and ACs, and even then only when firing hip or shoulder.
Don't forget to include the affects from adrenaline in dampening the effects of pain and shock.
-Siege
-Siege
Most people have probably fallen while running or bicycle riding or something, and jumped up, run off, etc.... only to wake up feeling like HELL the next day. Adrenaline rocks.
From sparring, it seems that it takes at least a broken finger or nose-gushing-blood to really impair a person under adrenaline effects, so I'd call that a light wound. When arms, wrists, or collarbones break, that starts to impair people noticeably -- really affects their whole movement, so that seems like a moderate wound. In my school, that's where we stop... but if we assume that at a Serious wound the average human can't really function at all anymore... that's a pretty severe wound. I think of a knee that's when rotated 360 degrees in place, or a shattered limb bone, or a major bleeding wound. If anything like a Serious wound happened in our normal real-lives, we'd be talking about it for years afterward.
Anyway..... that's to say, I concur -- the things that seem to really hurt in "normal" life but where we handle it from the bathroom medicine cabinet and a beer... those aren't wounds in the SR sense. I imagine that all my characters wake up sore and bruised after a hard night shadowrunning. Just the jumping, running, tension, etc. would take a toll on the body.
--K
From sparring, it seems that it takes at least a broken finger or nose-gushing-blood to really impair a person under adrenaline effects, so I'd call that a light wound. When arms, wrists, or collarbones break, that starts to impair people noticeably -- really affects their whole movement, so that seems like a moderate wound. In my school, that's where we stop... but if we assume that at a Serious wound the average human can't really function at all anymore... that's a pretty severe wound. I think of a knee that's when rotated 360 degrees in place, or a shattered limb bone, or a major bleeding wound. If anything like a Serious wound happened in our normal real-lives, we'd be talking about it for years afterward.
Anyway..... that's to say, I concur -- the things that seem to really hurt in "normal" life but where we handle it from the bathroom medicine cabinet and a beer... those aren't wounds in the SR sense. I imagine that all my characters wake up sore and bruised after a hard night shadowrunning. Just the jumping, running, tension, etc. would take a toll on the body.
--K
Indeed. A severed limb is what, an automatic Serious wound? If we took a Light wound (physical or stun) in real life, we wouldn't be calling it Light. Put another way, would it really take ten times the amount of shooting with a pistol to knock someone out or kill them?
~J
~J
| QUOTE (ShadowPhoenix) |
| firing a weapon too big for you can be hazardous to your health. anytime you shoot a gun that is greater than twice your strength in power, you incur the damage code of the weapon in virtual stun damage. When the Stun Box is full, each additional shot roll 2D6+(# of additional shots fired this combat), if the added result is more than the power of the weapon used, you suffer a light physical wound. Recoil modifiers -1 from the weapons power when calculating whether or not the gun is too large for your person. What this is designed to do is basically realistically model what firing a .50 cal when your a teenager would be like. you fire, it stings, you fire more, it stings more, eventually, you're going to sprain your gun hand, keep firing after that, and ligaments and muscles are going to be damaged. What do you guys think? |
I guess you guys missed the area earlier in the post. I wanted the damage from recoil to be accounted for as virtual stun. where it fills up a "pain" box, and then, after the "pain" box is full, roll 2D6+(# of additional rounds fired this combat) if added result greater than the power of weapon, you take L physical damage.
So to recap, lets stick with the Canon Heavy Weapons rules in regards to dealing with them(I do have CC, but I don't have Heavy Weapons in my game often enough to memorize that rule.
) For Pistols
Recoil Pool = body+reaction+skill/3
Pistol Recoil Divisor = Holdout = 8, Light = 6, Medium = 4, Heavy = 2
Power = Total Force of weapon(meaning you take the final power of the weapon including BF or FA)
Pistols = (Power/(PD))TN vs. recoil pool
this is the test to determine if you take damage. If you do you take the Damage code of the weapon, staged down 1 time in Virtual Stun this virtual stun is healed at gm's discretion. Virtual Stun overflows into real physical damage on the result of:
Test for Physical Overflow: 2D6+(# of additional shots fired while in overflow) if the total is more than the power of the weapon, a light physical wound is applied upon each additional firing of the weapon, this is to reflect torn muscle/ligaments in the wrist and pains in the shoulder etc.
Does this clarify a bit. I'm not looking at having someone shoot a heavy pistol and their cyberarm falls off
but rather a realistic way to make an 8 year old a little shy at firing a Ares Predator or things like that. and for all those that think skill is more important, feel free to alter the mechanic for recoil pool, what do people think if we instead do a ((Bod+Reac+(skillx2))/4) this would put more emphasis on the skill, as opposed to the bod/reac of the person. however, a good reaction is needed for making sure the gun doesn't fly out of your had in suprise, and strong joints(body) is needed so that your wrist doesn't bend the wrong way so far seeing a lot of good comments. Thanks for the input.
As I said, it would take that much shooting to get to the point where it does start to hurt to the point of seriously effecting you that it's really irrelevant in most peoples games. In such high levels of shootyness type games, PCs will be (or should be using) SMGs or ARs, which are designed to not be so grueling on the body, so wont incur such penalties anyway.
Like I said, it's a situation that's going to be so rare there's no point in making rules for it. I guess if it ever did happen and someone did fire 50+ rounds from a Heavy Pistol, I'd probably have them roll a resistance test against (rounds/10)L. Not that I recall a player ever carrying more than 30 rounds for a HP, let alone end up having to change clip...
Like I said, it's a situation that's going to be so rare there's no point in making rules for it. I guess if it ever did happen and someone did fire 50+ rounds from a Heavy Pistol, I'd probably have them roll a resistance test against (rounds/10)L. Not that I recall a player ever carrying more than 30 rounds for a HP, let alone end up having to change clip...
I think this might be good to have in the list of house rules so that people with low skills and attributes don't take the heaviest weapons, or at least don't fire them a lot, but might also be one of those rules that you usually shouldn't bother to actually keep track of.
Simply knowing that the rule exists should keep the Otakus from shooting a lot of Super Warhawks, but actually doing all those rolls and keeping track of the extra information will probably not be worth it in most situations.
[Edit]Personally, I'll just keep doing these things without any rules or numbers. I feel I'll be able to judge them well enough without additional rules.
Haven't seen you around in a while, Darkest Angel. I still dig your sig.[/Edit]
Simply knowing that the rule exists should keep the Otakus from shooting a lot of Super Warhawks, but actually doing all those rolls and keeping track of the extra information will probably not be worth it in most situations.
[Edit]Personally, I'll just keep doing these things without any rules or numbers. I feel I'll be able to judge them well enough without additional rules.
Haven't seen you around in a while, Darkest Angel. I still dig your sig.
[/Edit]
yeah I was just thinking I'm running a ganger campaign, with teenagers, some of them are not the burliest I'd imagine the mage at least isn't, wanted to come up with something to keep them from firing off a big gun too much. Thanks everybody for the input, you guys are the best
I'd imagine the mage at least isn't, wanted to come up with something to keep them from firing off a big gun too much. Thanks everybody for the input, you guys are the best
Generally, when I play a kid, I get him the biggest gun I can find on account of I'd rather fire a sawed-off shotgun one-handed once than fire a light pistol twenty times.
Not to mention the whole less-time-to-absorb-lead thing about dealing a lot of damage.
~J
Not to mention the whole less-time-to-absorb-lead thing about dealing a lot of damage.
~J
| QUOTE (ShadowPhoenix) |
| yeah I was just thinking I'm running a ganger campaign, with teenagers, some of them are not the burliest I'd imagine the mage at least isn't, wanted to come up with something to keep them from firing off a big gun too much. Thanks everybody for the input, you guys are the best |
You'd be surprised at the size of some teenagers.
Particularly if they're not just gutter-trash.
-Siege
Size along which axis ? I'm not entirely convinced that being a fat tub o' lard (as Deadlands succintly puts it) is that helpful for most things...
Personally I'd just at some point try to subtly hint that it'd probably be a good idea if the Str 1 Bod 2 Elf mage kept something of a pause at blasting around with his (Large Gun Of Choice) 'cause his wrists (or whatever) are starting to feel a bit funny, and if it falls to deaf ears give him some kind of minor sprain that doesn't affect overall activity that much but is going to penalize using the hand in question something wicked.
I'm not entirely convinced that being a fat tub o' lard (as Deadlands succintly puts it) is that helpful for most things...Personally I'd just at some point try to subtly hint that it'd probably be a good idea if the Str 1 Bod 2 Elf mage kept something of a pause at blasting around with his (Large Gun Of Choice) 'cause his wrists (or whatever) are starting to feel a bit funny, and if it falls to deaf ears give him some kind of minor sprain that doesn't affect overall activity that much but is going to penalize using the hand in question something wicked.
Well... again, even for a ganger campaign, I think that's a bit much. A Light wound is equivalent to a broken finger or sprained wrist, having a toe shot off, that sort of thing. A Light Stun should be an equivalent amount of pain, and I don't see how firing a single shot from a big gun can cause that-- without fumbling, at least.
If you're running a ganger campaign, with low skills, simply tell your players that if they roll more 1's than successes, they fumble, and have to make a body test against the power of the weapon. If you really want to get nasty, make it happen anytime they roll more 1's than their skill.
Realistically, most of the small people I've seen shoot BFG hand-cannons didn't complain about being sore until much later. Applying an immediate penalty seems a little harsh. (Heck, when my little brother was 10, one day he put over two hundred rounds through his 20-gauge shotgun, and he was fine. No pad, either; and he was a scrawny little kid.)
If you're running a ganger campaign, with low skills, simply tell your players that if they roll more 1's than successes, they fumble, and have to make a body test against the power of the weapon. If you really want to get nasty, make it happen anytime they roll more 1's than their skill.
Realistically, most of the small people I've seen shoot BFG hand-cannons didn't complain about being sore until much later. Applying an immediate penalty seems a little harsh. (Heck, when my little brother was 10, one day he put over two hundred rounds through his 20-gauge shotgun, and he was fine. No pad, either; and he was a scrawny little kid.)
The idea of applying penalties for wrist-strain sort of makes me think of applying penalties for wearing the wrong shoes. "You're going to run 1.8 km in your combat boots? Gee, do those have proper support in the in-sole? Your feet might get kind of sore, and heck, you could even get a blister! Plus 0.05 to your TNs."
"Wait, my mage casts ShoeInserts and Moleskin!"
"Ah, okay, you're alright then."
--K
"Wait, my mage casts ShoeInserts and Moleskin!"
"Ah, okay, you're alright then."
--K
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| Here's the thing-- As I recall, the "sore wrist" thing doesn't even count as a Light wound in Shadowrun. |
As I recall, there's nothing that tells us what a specific level of wound means in a realistic sense; it's totally subjective. What you think a light wound is and what I think a light wound is could be two totally different things.
I know that it is entirely possible for a person to be distracted by the pain of recoil. I've experienced it myself and have seen the same happen to other people. I think that kind of thing could easily be represented in the game by the effects of a light wound. While the issues that arise are usually more psychological than physical (while you are physically able, subconsciously you do not want to pull the trigger again), the distraction can be bad enough to cause a person to make the kinds of mistakes that certainly can be represented by a +1 TN/-1 init modifier.
Now, whether you really want to put the time into resolving that with rules is totally up to you. I don't think it's all that necessary, but it is an interesting idea, putting into game terms a way for GMs to dissuade players with certain characters from using really big guns at every possible opportunity. Some players need that.
Lost of videos of little people firing very powerful guns.
Just so you guys know, a .577 T-Rex is a 750 grain solid @ 2450 fps = 9995 fpe. From a 13.6-pound rifle, that's recoil of 163 fpe @ 28 fps. This rifle has three mercury recoil reducers and a pretty thick stock pad, which will soak a little bit of that energy (probably no more than about 5%). At least one of the guys firing that rifle looks like he weighs about 120 pounds, tops. You'll just have to see that one. Another guy, probably upwards of 200 pounds, nearly doubles over in pain. There are quite a few videos of people of all sizes firing this rifle, so you can see the differing reactions. Some are hurt, some are just suprised, some don't seem to mind.
A .700 Nitro Express is a 1000 grain solid @ 2260 fps = 11340 fpe. From an 18.25-pound rifle, that's recoil of 181 fpe @ 25 fps. Other than a stock pad, this rifle doesn't have any form of recoil deceleration that I'm aware of. The recoil doesn't look so impressive in this case because either the shot was down-loaded, or the guy just has his shit together. Maybe both.
To give you something to compare that to, an M16A2 fires a 62 grain FMJ @ 3100 fps = 1322 fpe. It's an 8-pound rifle, so you're dealing with 4.4 fpe @ 6 fps recoil tops, with the automatic action and compensator soaking some of that.
| QUOTE |
| Personally, I've only noticed a sore wrist after firing a lot of rounds at a range-- far more than I've had any character fire during a normal Shadowrun combat. <snip> Realistically, most of the small people I've seen shoot BFG hand-cannons didn't complain about being sore until much later. Applying an immediate penalty seems a little harsh. |
What kind of hand cannons have you fired or seen other people fire, Cain? Shooting .44 Magnum or a .50 AE is not difficult to get over. Doing the same with a .454 Casull or a .500 Magnum, the effects can be pretty immediate (again, something I've personally witnessed). Funnily enough, I think that's what some of us are attempting to model here.
| QUOTE |
| What kind of hand cannons have you fired or seen other people fire, Cain? Shooting .44 Magnum or a .50 AE is not difficult to get over. Doing the same with a .454 Casull or a .500 Magnum, the effects can be pretty immediate (again, something I've personally witnessed). Funnily enough, I think that's what some of us are attempting to model here |
If SP were talking about heavy rifles, yes, you're absolutely right; however, the rules he just posted were for pistols only. As you pointed out, people can shoot .44 mag or .50 AE without much ill effect. (Incidentally, what I saw was a 105-lb girl shooting a Desert Eagle .50 on her first time at a range. I can say that her wrist didn't break, and that she didn't appear to be overly sore even after pumping 30 or so rounds through it.)
I've also seen my kid brother, when he was 10, put over 200 rounds through a 20-gauge shotgun. He was about 4'3" and about 70 pounds fully dressed at that time, and he didn't appear to be noticeably sore. On someone his size, that 20-gauge was the equivalent of a humongous hand cannon for him.
I can see applying these sort of penalties for someone firing a hunting or sniper-class rifle without being properly braced; but I really don't see this as happening all that often with pistols-- even big pistols.
While were posting big gun links check this one out.
4-bore double rifle
It fires a black powder cartridge that pushes a 0.962 inch diameter 1850 grain slug at 1400+ fps. With the gun weighing in at a hefty 24lbs it generates 168ft-lbs of recoil at 21.3fps. The muzzle end generates thumpin’ 8050ft-lbs of energy.
The largest hand cannon I have fire is my little brother's. Encore pistol in 450 Marlin He put a 15 inch 450 Marlin barrel on a Thompson Encore frame with a pistol grip. That gun spits a 350 grain bullet at 2030fps and in a handgun just over 5 lbs that smarts with a recoil of about 53 ft-lbs at 26fps. It delivers 3200ft-lbs of muzzle energy.
Even with a handgun with that heavy of recoil if you are prepared for it, it is manageable. Your hands do hurt a bit afterwards but if it was a life and death situation the recoil is not bad enough to overcome the adrenaline for all but the smallest of characters. I am not particularly strong or big but manage several round out of that cannon before I developed a horrible flinch. Had my life depended on it I would have lost the flinch.
If you want to incorporate recoil into your game have at it but I am not sure how necessary it is if you are trying to emulate real life. Recoil in all but the heaviest cartridges is manageable by most and I personally don't think the extra complexity to the game is worth the game mechanics baggage you have to bring along.
JMHO
mcb
4-bore double rifle
It fires a black powder cartridge that pushes a 0.962 inch diameter 1850 grain slug at 1400+ fps. With the gun weighing in at a hefty 24lbs it generates 168ft-lbs of recoil at 21.3fps. The muzzle end generates thumpin’ 8050ft-lbs of energy.
The largest hand cannon I have fire is my little brother's. Encore pistol in 450 Marlin He put a 15 inch 450 Marlin barrel on a Thompson Encore frame with a pistol grip. That gun spits a 350 grain bullet at 2030fps and in a handgun just over 5 lbs that smarts with a recoil of about 53 ft-lbs at 26fps. It delivers 3200ft-lbs of muzzle energy.
Even with a handgun with that heavy of recoil if you are prepared for it, it is manageable. Your hands do hurt a bit afterwards but if it was a life and death situation the recoil is not bad enough to overcome the adrenaline for all but the smallest of characters. I am not particularly strong or big but manage several round out of that cannon before I developed a horrible flinch. Had my life depended on it I would have lost the flinch.
If you want to incorporate recoil into your game have at it but I am not sure how necessary it is if you are trying to emulate real life. Recoil in all but the heaviest cartridges is manageable by most and I personally don't think the extra complexity to the game is worth the game mechanics baggage you have to bring along.
JMHO
mcb
That rifle is... pretty intimidating.
~J
~J
If that thing was going to fired on me, I'd soil my self, no dought about it.
Wonder what the damage code of that monster would be, well its obvious that said target would be paste, something of that caliber leave pretty large entry and exit wounds. That be a nice firearm to own though.
Wonder what the damage code of that monster would be, well its obvious that said target would be paste, something of that caliber leave pretty large entry and exit wounds. That be a nice firearm to own though.
hmm... heavy weapons skill... I would think somethink like that is going to do vehicle damage, maybe 14D vehicle?
If that hit my honda civic there likely wouldn't be much left.
-Mike R.
If that hit my honda civic there likely wouldn't be much left.
-Mike R.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| That rifle is... pretty intimidating. ~J |
Must get Ray to convert it, so I can saw off the barrel and make trolls wet themselves.
-Siege
| QUOTE |
| As you pointed out, people can shoot .44 mag or .50 AE without much ill effect. |
I've seen both. Some people have no problem with it and other people can't seem to get past the (relatively) big boom to shoot worth a damn with the thing. All of them can pull the trigger. That in itself is really not a spectacular feat. I have no doubt that a 105 pound girl can pull the trigger on a Desert Eagle. But can she shoot it consistently with any modicum of accuracy? Very unlikely. Fatigue will set in eventually. The smaller and less experienced you are, the quicker that's going to happen. That is what I would intend to model with this rule. Again, the issues that arise are usually more psychological than physical.
That said, I don't think /2 is a proper divisor for all heavy pistols, but seeing as I suggested applying a different divisor to each class, I can't really blame him for coming up with that. Of course, /8 and /6 divisors pretty much equal nothing (unless you're using my rules, and even then very rarely will it matter), so there's really not much reason to complain about those. /4 for mediums seems plenty reasonable to me seeing as you're pretty unlikely to ever be injured by one (again, my rules). But the /2 for heavies only seems appropriate to me for very heavy pistols, like the S&W 500 or that .450 Encore mcb posted (house-ruled guns). Let's not forget that the more body/reaction/skill you have, the less of a factor these things are going to be.
I also think that applying the power of a burst is not such a good idea. Blowing a mag of 5.56mm all at once isn't going to affect you any more than shooting each round individually.
| QUOTE |
| If you're running a ganger campaign, with low skills, simply tell your players that if they roll more 1's than successes, they fumble, and have to make a body test against the power of the weapon. If you really want to get nasty, make it happen anytime they roll more 1's than their skill. |
Then you're restricted to using the rule only when you're playing low-skill games. (Who here plays games like that? No one? Okay.) What happens when you have a non-showrunner type character involved with high-skill shadowrunners and you want to use the same rule for everyone? It effectively penalizes characters with higher skill because they're rolling more dice, especially when they have high target numbers. It's ass-backwards to how something like this should work. The only other option is not to bother, I guess.
If this kind of a thing is not enough of a factor for you to want to bother with, then don't worry about it. But repeating that you don't think the rules are worth the time is not only a waste of your time, it's a waste of anyone else's who thinks that rules like these might benefit their game.
| QUOTE |
| I've also seen my kid brother, when he was 10, put over 200 rounds through a 20-gauge shotgun. He was about 4'3" and about 70 pounds fully dressed at that time, and he didn't appear to be noticeably sore. On someone his size, that 20-gauge was the equivalent of a humongous hand cannon for him. |
A small kid with a shotgun vs. an adult with a pistol is really a terrible comparison to try and make. There are so many variables to factor out that it really doesn't make a lot of sense to try to compare the two. In terms of the amount of energy absorbed per pound of body weight, you're probably right. The difference would be in how the body can absorb that energy. Your brother had a stock and two hands to absorb the recoil, whereas a person with a handgun is going to absorb that force largely through one wrist. The velocity of the heavier gun recoiling is much slower than that of the lighter handgun. That makes a substantial difference in how people perceive recoil. Last but not least, your brother was 10 years old! I remember taking innumerable spills at that age that would probably put me in the hospital today. It's those kind of things that make this comparison silly.
| QUOTE |
| I can see applying these sort of penalties for someone firing a hunting or sniper-class rifle without being properly braced; but I really don't see this as happening all that often with pistols-- even big pistols. |
Neither do I. But if those of us who are interested keep working at it, the rule will properly reflect that.
| QUOTE (mcb) |
| Even with a handgun with that heavy of recoil if you are prepared for it, it is manageable. |
I think one of the factors here is that a character that is likely to be injured by this kind of thing isn't going to be prepared for it.
| QUOTE |
| Your hands do hurt a bit afterwards but if it was a life and death situation the recoil is not bad enough to overcome the adrenaline for all but the smallest of characters. I am not particularly strong or big but manage several round out of that cannon before I developed a horrible flinch. Had my life depended on it I would have lost the flinch. |
At least, that's what you assume. I can't tell you the number of high-stress, adrenaline-pumping situations I've been in (in the case, hunting) in which I've totally missed a shot because I did something subconsciously at the wrong time. It happens. Fortunately, the more you learn about it the easier it is to control. (If you hunt as well, I can't imagine that you don't know what I'm talking about.)
I really wish adrenaline would stop being used as the leveling factor in this type of situation because it really does not work that way. While adrenaline does have the effect of making some senses more acute and certain things less noticeable, it has the unfortunate side effect of really dicking with your heart rate (good bye, long range accuracy) and your fine motor skills (the same skills that allow you to keep your pistol's front sight rock-steady in the rear). While the pain may not be noticed conciously, your adrenal medulla is going to dump epinephrine into your bloodstream regardless. You have to learn to control that. That means skill. What you get, you pay for.
Anyway, I've wasted far too much of my time arguing about this.
Agreed adrenaline has its bad effect when trying to shoot accurately but in those heart pounding hunting experiences do you remember the recoil of the gun you were hunting with?
I don't look forward to sighting my 12 gage slug gun in for deer hunting each year. Shooting a slug gun over sand bags can be a bit painful, but I can honestly say that I don't remember the recoil from that same gun when in an actually hunting situation.
The adrenaline rush in life and death combat must be even higher and I would think all but the nastiest recoil would go unnoticed. The adrenaline would probably mess with the shooter more than the recoil would.
Again JMHO
mcb
I don't look forward to sighting my 12 gage slug gun in for deer hunting each year. Shooting a slug gun over sand bags can be a bit painful, but I can honestly say that I don't remember the recoil from that same gun when in an actually hunting situation.
The adrenaline rush in life and death combat must be even higher and I would think all but the nastiest recoil would go unnoticed. The adrenaline would probably mess with the shooter more than the recoil would.
Again JMHO
mcb
| QUOTE (Hero @ Feb 24 2004, 03:49 PM) |
| If that thing was going to fired on me, I'd soil my self, no dought about it. Wonder what the damage code of that monster would be, well its obvious that said target would be paste, something of that caliber leave pretty large entry and exit wounds. That be a nice firearm to own though. |
Keep in mind that this is an accurate reproduction of a rifle from the 19th century that used black powder, with relatively (for such a huge freakin' gun, a barrel almost an inch in diameter) low muzzle velocity.
A modern .50 cal sniper rifle fires a bullet that's three times lighter, but at slightly over twice the velocity, which means that its bullet has around 30% more kinetic energy. The SR equivalent has a damage code of 14D.
That means this thing doesn't come close in lethality to a SR heavy sniper rifle, and gets eaten for lunch by a PAC.
But for intimidation factor, it's pretty up there.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| But for intimidation factor, it's pretty up there. ~J |
It's an amazing thing for someone to design and build from scratch.
Making cases from solid brass stock... Probably what you'd have to do in SR to get ammo for it - echoes of Johnny Mnemonic, anyone? (no, not the movie)
Indeed. They go high, you go low.
~J
~J
Actually the typical 50cal BMG has about 86% more muzzle energy then the 4-bore. Typical 50cal is 750 grain bullet doing about 3000fps for ~15000ft-lbs of muzzle energy. The 4-bore as stated above only has about 8050ft-lbs of muzzle energy. But if you compare the Taylor Knockout for them you see why, despite it age, the 4-bore is still a good stopping gun.
TK for the 50cal BMG is 160
The 4-bore is a whopping 355
Its tuff to beat a near one inch wound channel. Also the 4-bore is shootable without a muzzle brake. The 50cal as a shoulder gun without bi-pod and muzzle break might just break a collar bone and would probably nock you over.
There is one issue about muzzle breaks for recoil control. They work great to tame recoil but they greatly increase the concussion that the shooter receives. Something Shadowrun overlooks. Many professional hunters, especial those hunting dangerous game, will not let a client hunter use a rifle with a muzzle break due to the extra muzzle blast direct back at the shooter and guide. This extra muzzle blast effect you ability to hear that other cape buffalo come up from behind, or a buddy yelling about the bad guy coming up from behind. Many muzzle break manufactures also provide a dummy break that you screw on the threaded barrel end in place of the regular brake. The dummy brake is identical to the regular but lacks the special holes or slots. This way the barrel harmonics are the same but you turn off the muzzle break aspect. Your accuracy is the same but much less muzzle blast and normal recoil. You use the regular break at the range practicing and the dummy version when hunting.
mcb
TK for the 50cal BMG is 160
The 4-bore is a whopping 355
Its tuff to beat a near one inch wound channel. Also the 4-bore is shootable without a muzzle brake. The 50cal as a shoulder gun without bi-pod and muzzle break might just break a collar bone and would probably nock you over.
There is one issue about muzzle breaks for recoil control. They work great to tame recoil but they greatly increase the concussion that the shooter receives. Something Shadowrun overlooks. Many professional hunters, especial those hunting dangerous game, will not let a client hunter use a rifle with a muzzle break due to the extra muzzle blast direct back at the shooter and guide. This extra muzzle blast effect you ability to hear that other cape buffalo come up from behind, or a buddy yelling about the bad guy coming up from behind. Many muzzle break manufactures also provide a dummy break that you screw on the threaded barrel end in place of the regular brake. The dummy brake is identical to the regular but lacks the special holes or slots. This way the barrel harmonics are the same but you turn off the muzzle break aspect. Your accuracy is the same but much less muzzle blast and normal recoil. You use the regular break at the range practicing and the dummy version when hunting.
mcb
| QUOTE (mcb) |
| Actually the typical 50cal BMG has about 86% more muzzle energy then the 4-bore. Typical 50cal is 750 grain bullet doing about 3000fps for ~15000ft-lbs of muzzle energy. The 4-bore as stated above only has about 8050ft-lbs of muzzle energy. But if you compare the Taylor Knockout for them you see why, despite it age, the 4-bore is still a good stopping gun. TK for the 50cal BMG is 160 The 4-bore is a whopping 355 Its tuff to beat a near one inch wound channel. |
Perhaps, but the difference (for living things remotely human sized) between a .50 cal and an 1" wound channel is pretty much academic - and the .50 cal is guaranteed to have vastly better armor-piercing performance.
| QUOTE |
| I've seen both. Some people have no problem with it and other people can't seem to get past the (relatively) big boom to shoot worth a damn with the thing. All of them can pull the trigger. That in itself is really not a spectacular feat. I have no doubt that a 105 pound girl can pull the trigger on a Desert Eagle. But can she shoot it consistently with any modicum of accuracy? Very unlikely. Fatigue will set in eventually. The smaller and less experienced you are, the quicker that's going to happen. That is what I would intend to model with this rule. Again, the issues that arise are usually more psychological than physical. |
Agreed; but what you're describing is more dependant on skill, and not on physical size. I think that, based on what you describe, a skilled 105-lb girl can fire a Desert Eagle for longer, with fewer ill effects, than an unskilled 300-lb linebacker.
I definitely think we're looking more at a fumble rule than a regular-shot rule. If it's not going to happen all tht often, and is more likely to happen to those with low/no skill, then I think it's best reserved as a fumble penalty.
(For the record, since it was her first time shooting anything other than a rubber band gun, the fact she hit the target 3 out of 5 times was pretty decent. Her accuracy didn't drop noticeably from the first to last clip, but since it wasn't all that to begin with, I don't have anything to really compare it to.)
| QUOTE |
| A small kid with a shotgun vs. an adult with a pistol is really a terrible comparison to try and make. There are so many variables to factor out that it really doesn't make a lot of sense to try to compare the two. |
OK, here's where I get confused. You were discussing big rounds, like the 700 nitro. Now, I don't know nearly as much about guns as you do... but I didn't think there *was* a handgun out there that fired rounds that big. I thought you were discussing rifles, when you were talking about those rounds-- and a small kid with a shotgun seemed like a decent comparison to an adult with a dinosaur rifle.
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