So i know adrenalin pump adds some useful stuff at the cost of 1 stun per turn, and trauma damper is suppose to take 1 stun point of damage and negate it (among other things). I wanna know if it cancels out the adrenalin pump damage? Im guessing it does.

On another note, say I take the 1 stun damage from adrenalin pump, and the trauma damper negates it, and I take 1 stun damage from an enemy in the same combat pass, will the trauma damper negate that one as well?

I dunno, but you'll still die when it wears off.

AFAIK, Trauma Damper is -1 from every packet of damage, not per turn.

The adrenal pump does (# of turns active)S damage when it's duration ends, not 1S every turn.

Yup. When it wears off, you're gone.

The stun damage is in no way lethal unless you're really smacked around yourself. Getting popped for an extra 6 stun is acceptable to me for the combat benefits of the adrenaline pump, especially if you take a Trauma damper, and better yet, a pain editor (IIRC - the one that negates stun tracks) as well.

I've never considered the adrenal pump a good choice. It can't boost Attributes over the augmented maximum, so you are better off getting some initiative-enhancing 'ware (which also boosts Reaction) and some muscle augmentation/toner. It is a piece of 'ware that, for enhancing you for a duration of rounds, hits you with unresisted stun damage. Usually not enough to kill you, but if you are using one of the higher-rated pumps, and take stun damage from other sources while you are using it, then yeah, you could wind up biting it.

Since the stun damage is all at the end, the trauma damper doesn't really do much. It negates one box of stun damage, that's it. And the trauma damper cannot work in conjunction with an activated pain editor (nothing stopping you from waiting until the trauma damper helps you with the crash, then activating the pain editor, though).

6 might be, but how about 18

If only you could end it at any time with a Dopadrine injection, then it wouldn't be like playing Russian Roulette...

Also, they really don't go into how one purposely activates it.

I would've thought a composure test, isn't that it?

In SR3, there were clear rules for intentional and accidental activation. Steal them, I guess. :/

So, you have to purposely fail a composure test every time you want to activate your implant?
That's a big bouncing clown balloon right there..

The same way a pain editor or chemical gland is activated, I'd guess.

No, he's saying do a composure test to set it off on purpose.

How about taking some Woad? The berserk would set it off automatically.

If you have 30k/0.75 essence, and want some improved combat ability along the lines of the adrenal pump, take muscle aug/toner 1, reaction enhancer 1, and a batch of stimulant patches (look for the autoinjector in AUG). (Stim patches work well with a trauma damper.)

There's also Kamikaze, it provides a similar "combat boost now, worry about the consequences later" effect while being much more controllable. And it doesn't even require an implant, a breakable tooth or a a piece of body armour with integrated autoinjector does the trick.

The adrenal pump is either a huge rules fail or an attempt to show that all gear isn't equal and there are some really bad choices. I go with it being a massive rules fail. Since you have to activate it even with no penalties it would not be overpowered IMO.

All gear isn´t equal, and we can´t judge rules failure without knowing intent.

totally true, if there intent was to make a totally worthless piece of gear they succeeded on a massive scale with the adrenal pump.

I don't know... for the low end ganger, and a low end Adrenal pump, it is not all that bad (Better than some drug combinations in fact)... but once you get teh next level or 2 of the Adrenal Pump, then you start to have issues once it wears off... But honestly, I have never actually used such a piece of gear in any edition, regardless of the rating...

Keep the Faith

I've got that handy, here we go:



The ACTH inhaler they mention is listed as legal at 100Y/six doses, with no effects aside from triggering the pump.

Monoamine oxidase (MAO) is a compound that kills adrenaline, dealing 10L2 (???) stun damage, reducing Reaction by 1 and Initiative by 1d6. It remains in the system for 10-(Body d6) turns after it is applied, and subsequent doses have no effect until the first is flushed.

When used on someone with an active Adrenal pump, it reduces the bonuses given by the pump. The Level 1 pump loses bonuses for Quickness, Strength, and Will, although it still gives a bonus to Reaction (-1 for the MAO). Level 2 pumps hit by MAO function as a Level 1 pump, but keep their Reaction bonus. There is no mention of a Level 3 pump in Shadowtech. No mention is made of a reduction to the stun damage the pump deals. Quote regarding Adrenal Pump counters:



My reading on this is that there may be ways to control the Adrenal Pump that didn't make it into the official books for 4e. With trigger drugs and adrenaline-counters both existing earlier in the source material, and the basic principles of the Adrenal Pump remaining the same, I think it is reasonable for GMs to offer some of these to players.

Mike - That's the first edition Shadowtech. Converted to SR4* I'd rule it as a drug that ends the effect of an adrenal pump with a minimum of 4 boxes of stun damage.

Even though the minimum number of boxes for any of the 3 levels of Adrenal Pump is less than that? Pretty Harsh in my book, since Shadowtech had an option that did not cause any damage at all...

Keep the Faith

Which option was that?

Basically, being dosed with MAO causes a 4S crash. If the adrenal pump is active the adrenalin counteracts some of the MAO, reducing the amount of crash effect from the MAO dosage, replacing it with crash effect from the adrenalin.

This one, that you even quoted...



Keep the Faith

The injectors normally deal quite a lot of stun damage, as MAO is intended to be a take-down stun chem. The special version designed to suppress the adrenal pump doesn't have that effect. I feel it is slightly ambiguous if that makes the Adrenal Pump inflict no damage as well (which is why I made sure to quote it exactly and let the board hash out what the exact wording means). If the Adrenal Pump doesn't deal any stun damage, then it is a dramatically changed piece of gear.

If I ever allow the MAO/Pump combo in my game, I will likely rule MAO causes an early termination of the Pump effect, which keeps the accumulated stun damage (the 'price' of the boost) but gives the player enough control to not die from it. I find it much more interesting if the player is tempted into taking a chance, rather then playing it safe. The problem with the current rules for the Pump are that the risks far outweigh the returns. Shift control to the player, and you might start to see some Troll Berserkers packing Adrenal Pumps. Could be interesting, in my humble.

I suppose an autoinjector tied in to a biomonitor will allow you to counter the adrenal pump without a minimum amount of damage taken, but an external doser will not be as controlled.

Shadowrun has always had less-optimal choices (I mean, why would a PC get gas-vent 1 or 2 for a gun?). I agree that some of them are so suboptimal (adrenal gland, metatypes such as Oni or Xapiri Thepe, etc.) that the only reason to take them would be if you were okay with gimping yourself for roleplaying reasons. Generally, I, myself, would only use things like that for NPCs.

Gas Vent 1 and 2 are lower concealability hits, so if you don't need much recoil (let's say you're modding something that already has Shock Pads, Personalized Grip, and 2 points of internal recoil, and you don't use full auto) you might as well stick to lower recoil.

JaronK

I didn't even know the game still have GV 1.

I feel that chemically controlling the Adrenal Pump does not let you avoid the crash stun. It just lets you *control* the pump: on, off.

Well things like Gas vent 1 and 2 I see as being there just for the sake of game world consistency. There are grades, sure you will always take the best grade but logically the weaker versions would exist. Now don't get me wrong they could of handled it differently. I would of preferred for recoil comp it be an on off bonus, either you have recoil comp and it gives a flat consistent bonus or you don't. I am not a fan of stacking modifiers with custom weapons etc.

Adrenal pump I have a hard time justifying for anyone even NPCs. Maybe level one as TJ pointed out could work for gangers but past that and it is so sub-optimal and rules suicide wonky I can't see it for anyone.

Gangers don't normally have 30k to blow on fringe bioware.

Well, 'gangers' no, but there's *always* some crazy thug out there. Not all runners are shades, and suicidally augmented can practically be normal for the right crowd.

Hey... I like My ONI Character... and he is far from gimped in my opinion... I do not see 5bp as gimping a character, of course, your opinion varies if I remember correctly, but it is only 5bp...

Keep the Faith

But, Interestingly, the Adrenal Pump (Both levels 1 and 2) will statistically cause less stun than most of the combat drugs... I mean really: Nitro (9 Unresisted Stun), Kamikaze (6 Unresisted Stun), Cram (6 unresisted Stun)... The Adrenal Pump Level 1 has a range (1-6) but will statistically fall in the 3 range over time... The Level 2's range (2-12) will fall into the 7 Range for stun statistically over time... yes, they could both go high on you (or Low), but that is the risk...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

Ha, it sounds like you're exactly arguing *for* him: you're okay with playing a strictly sub-optimal choice. Nothing wrong with that, but you can't deny that if you have a free choice between N and N+5, one option is 'gimped' (categorically less). It's not an accusation.

Not arguing for, exaclty, I was just pointing out that many of the combat drugs have a Worse impact than the Adrenal Pump does... It was something I never really payed attention to much before... it was an interesting observation, more than anything else...

Keep the Faith

If combat drugs only lasted a few turns, then no one would use them either.

Personally, I'm all about the adrenal pump, as a concept. Just introduce the shutoff chems in the rules and lower the essence cost to reasonable levels, and you've got a pretty nifty thing - a Russian Roulette of bonuses when you need them.

Still seems like an autoinjector with Epinephrine would be easier to work out though...

I had a character from SR2 and some npc's in SR3 with Adrenal pumps. They generally ended up being more useful than not, especially since the boost to willpower was more significant in the era of variable TN's.

The big change from SR2-3's 'possibly painful, but useable' to SR4-4a's 'why the fuck would you implant something like this' looks to me like it's because you used to get a roll to resist the damage, and now you don't.

That is one change that I never made and often forget about. So for my adaptation of MAO, change it to min 2S unresisted or 4S if you're still going with the older rules where drugs are resistible.

Other failures don't make the adrenal pump any better.

The things that kill this IMO are augmentation limits, short duration, potential crap tons of unresisted damage.

Augmentation limits: With limits you can all too easily hit them without a temporary boost device that has negative side effects. And when given the choice of always on vs I have to turn it on I will always take the always on unless the cost difference is absurd in essence.

Short duration: Unlike drugs this lasts basically one encounter, not the run, but an encounter.

Unresisted damage: I hope that was the last fight or you barely got hurt, and I hope your friends can drag your butt out of there because there is a solid chance you are in a lights out situation for anything past the level 1 model. Oh and you can be dead, or seriously hurt(though SR healing and first aid is epic)

Not saying adrenaline pump is good, but show me other pice of ware that boosts willpower.

Um. Pain Editor, at least in SR3?

You are right there is one stat it handles that wont be maxed. I had forgot that. Still everything else can be maxed anyways.

crazy suggestion: why not work up some sort of house rule that stores the adrenaline pump's production into an autoinjector. 1 dose = 1 combat turn, or something like that (i mean really... that's all the adrenaline pump does, right? store the adrenaline, release it when needed? so a mechanical system could presumably control dosage better, i would think...)

In that case, why not just get an internal chemgland (bio version) from Augmentation that continuously keeps 1 "dose" of adrenaline in your system? You don't have to worry about the crash since the duration never ends.

because i consider it a bad idea to do anything that will make your GM want to strangle you in real life?

Well howdy, and may I be the first to welcome you to Dumpshock!

Why bother with adrenalin dopamine and k-10 please... Or the iffy worded natural immunity quality or genetic enhancement.

Because you build immunity to something continuous in your system, and have to jack up the dosage. Eventually you'll need more than the gland gives.