Hey everyone,
I was bored and I threw this together for fun. I hope you guys like it.

"Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, welcome to tonight’s main event, for the heavyweight championship of the world! In the blue corner, weighing in at 215 lbs, with a record of 46 wins, 0 loses, and 35 KOs, wearing green, Michael “Magik” Sullivan!"

"In the red corner, weighing in at 350 lbs, with a record of 31 wins, 0 loses, with all 31 of his wins coming by knockout, wearing blue, Ramon “Metal” Martinez!"

"All right, the boxers have been announced, the ref has explained the rules, let’s get to the fight. I don’t anticipate them feeling each other out much Teddy; both are aggressive fighters, and we should see action early. That’s the bell to the first round, here we go!"

"It looks like Metal has the drop on Magik, let’s see if he manages to do any damage in this early round."

"Magik is bobbing and weaving, but Metal seems undeterred. Ohhh! A devastating overhand right, and Magik is down! He moved right into that one, and it hit him clean!"

"Magik got cold-cocked there, but he seems to have most of his marbles. He looks like he’s working the count before he gets back up."
"1… 2… 3… 4…"

"The ref gives Magik a moment to compose himself, but he’s ready to go. A Nasty cut has opened over his eye, his corner is going to have to look at that between rounds."
"If it makes it that long! Metal looks like a racehorse in the blocks; his adrenaline is off the charts and it’s only a matter of time before he crashes."
"That’s what makes this fight so great Teddy."

"It looks like with that eye, Metal has just a slight speed advantage on Magik, and is moving in."

"Oooh! Magik just ducked under that vicious haymaker! I don’t know how much longer his luck is going to hold out."
"Well if he can hold out for just a little while longer, Metal will tire and then it could be anyone’s match."

"Metal is starting to look frustrated Teddy; he’s throwing bombs and Magik is dancing around the ring; other than that first shot, Metal hasn’t been able to touch him."

"Metal looks like a man possessed; if Magik can just hold out, it might have a shot, but Metal looks like he doesn’t want it to last that long."

"Magik isn’t going to win any rounds by running away, but I think his plan is to press the later rounds after Metal is exhausted, which at this rate won’t be long."

"Magik ducks under a hard straight left, and responds with a nasty uppercut, knocking Metal off his feet and down! What a shot!"

"With guys souped up like Metal, it’s hard to tell if you’ve hurt ‘em or not; he’s down, but he doesn’t look that hurt."
"What it accomplished Marty is slowing Metal enough to calm him down; this fight is far from over."
"1… 2… 3…"

"Metal stands without much difficultly; but he’s looking dead tired, it looks like he’s sobered up and his burst of energy from the beginning of the fight is over."

"They trade jabs, feeling each other out; I thought Metal was going to win with that first burst of energy, but at this point, who knows?"

"Both are throwing all out, but neither can connect! The crowd in here is absolutely insane; what a show they’re seeing!"

"Now Metal looks on the defensive, as Magik is counter punching every attack, forcing Metal to back away to avoid those killer strikes!"

"I honestly don’t know how much more these two can give; they’re both throwing as hard as they can, I’ve never seen a fight with a pace like this."

"Oh my! Magik set Metal up for that shot, and it was brutal! He’s down again; the three knockdown rule is in effect; if he gets back up, once more on the mat and he’s done!"

"It’s amazing how much this fight has turned since the beginning. Now Metal’s eye has opened up as well; let’s see if he can get up."
"1… 2… 3…"

"4… 5… 6…"

"Metal stands and wipes blood from his chin, smacking his gloves together. The ref checks his eye, and we’re ready for more."

"Metal is barely hanging on; let’s see if Magik can put him down and get the TKO."

"Metal is doing everything he can to stay in this fight, but I really don’t know how much longer he can last."

"Metal looks like a caged animal, pawing at Magik trying to avoid the brutal onslaught. Oh, Magik connects hard with a right hook, and Metal is down! That will do it!"

"Metal is hurt! His trainer jumps into the ring, and they’re motioning for the Medic! It is complete pandemonium here; I’ve never seen anything like it!! What a fight!"

Id love to see more of these, it was awesome

Hm. I'm unclear on the knockdowns. SR4a p.161 says you're knocked down if you take damage equal to or exceeding your body... but is that before or after you roll to resist? Also, sheer nit-pickery, but don't(wouldn't?) boxing gloves reduce your damage somehow?

Awesome setup and narrative, by the way. I like it.

Well, do you take 10P when you reduce it to 3S, or do you take 3S? You are exposed to 10P, you take 3S.

Also, if you want to know if boxing gloves reduce damage somehow, ask a boxer to punch you with them on. In short, it doesn't really, although one could argue that all damage is Stun, not Physical.

Fair enough. Though from what I remember, taking a hit from the light sparring gloves in kung fu practice hurt more than when we got out the big boxing gloves. That might just be from the fact that hits from the light gloves were generally due to me glitching my rea+unarmed, however.

Hey,
Glad other people liked it. I went in with zero expectations; I honestly had no idea who was going to win .
As for boxing gloves, I thought about adding them in, having them do (Str/2 -2)S or somesuch, but decided to keep it bare knuckled for simplicity sake (besides, killing hands or bone lacing probably is going to do the same damage whether there is a padded glove or not).
Re-reading the knockdown rules, it looks as though you were right. However, Metal would have gone down with that last swing anyways . I just liked that there were rules on getting up, which worked well for a boxing match.
The other thing I screwed up was full dodge; I didn't realize I did it incorrectly until halfway through, and was too lazy to go back and fix it. Basically, you full dodge 'until your next turn'. So, if I'm interpreting it correctly, let's say Metal goes first in a round. Metal attacks, Magik full dodges; then, on round 2 of the initiative, Metal attacks again, and Magik is still dodging. Therefore, he rolls full dodge again, and on his turn in pass 2, Magik gets an attack.

-DrZaius

Yea generally speaking if you give one fighter a piece of gear that guarantees they can't win prolonged fights and stick them in a prolonged fight they loose, and you were puzzled about this?

I noticed you added Enhanced Articulation in to Metal's unarmed attacks? I'm pretty sure EA only applies to Physical skills (Athletics, Stealth), and not Combat skills.

Great run through of the combat system.

In fourth edition EA applies to combat just fine.

no, it doesn't.

are combat skills physical skills? no, they aren't. they're combat skills. therefore, enhanced articulation does not improve combat skills because what enhanced articulation does is improve _physical_ skills with linked physical attributes. not combat skills.

I thought he would KO Magik before Magik got a chance to respond. I was surprised how quickly the adrenaline boost wore off, in terms of the time of the fight. What I meant by "I didn't know how it was going to turn out" was that I wrote up both characters and threw them in there, not really knowing how the dice would come out. To be honest, Metal had a *huge* advantage early- he was winning nearly every initiative, which let him be the aggressor right up until the end.

Jaid: Yeah; I wasn't sure on that, so I ended up giving it to him. I'll add it to the long list of things I did wrong with this post I had fun with it regardless though.

I hate to be arguementative, but all the skills that are used in combat situations use the physical attributes in question. I believe that shadowrun does a good job showing, especially in the skills chapter, that using those skills are no different from any application of any other skill.

Now that I've seen what happens though, it looks like the adrenaline pump is a bit of a bust. I had never used one before, so I was interested to see how it would play out. It's sort of an "all-or-nothing" augmentation; either the guy tears your arms off or 20 seconds in he's bent over sucking air, there doesn't really appear to be a middle ground. I may do this again, with new guys, and different skills/gear, while making sure I follow the dodge/knockdown rules more carefully.
Am I reading the dodge rules right?
i.e.
Metal wins initiative.
Round 1
Metal attacks Magik, Magik full dodges.
On Magik's turn, he's dodging.
Round 2
Metal attacks Magik; does he need to full dodge again, or does he get to use the dodge from before, because he hasn't really 'gone' yet?

Note the capitalization. "Physical skills" are a specific subset of skills, not just any skill that happens to be linked to a Physical attribute.; the list starts on p. 124. Skills like Firearms, Blades, Unarmed, etc., are linked to Physical attributes, but are considered Combat skills, not Physical skills.

While going on full defense as an interrupt uses their next complex action, it does not skip their next action phase (just uses a complex action from the phase, leaving them with a free action).

Exactly. The example even explicitly states as much:

Ok; so I was doing it right then?

Phase 1
Metal attacks Magik. Magik full dodges.
On Magik's turn, he uses his free action to wince.
Phase 2
Metal attacks Magik. Magik full dodges.
On Magik's turn, he uses his free action to bleed.
?

Yeah, except for the enhanced articulation thing (and in SR3, it did add to combat skills). I have to say, though, that the structure of the fight was pretty unfriendly to an adrenal pump. I mean, with pausing the fight to let fighters get back to their feet, that ate up three rounds on a single knockdown. No big surprise that the sammie lost. Still a fun little exercise, though.

No Counterstrike for the adept?

Although he never explicitly stated as much, both builds seem to be built using only the main book.

The guy with the adrenal pump shouldn't have begun the fight with it. It causes a crash when it's out, it allows you to ignore stun modifiers, and it allows you to stay conscious when your stun is full. I've always imagined them as the ace up your sleeve that you use when you're about to lose anyway. It's the card that guarantees you won't be on your feet at the end of the encounter so you play it at the end. After mopping up the gang that raided your safehouse, you're bleeding from every orifice, and there's one troll Lt. left. Frag it. If you're going to hell, this guy's going first <hits the gland>. If you're lucky, you might have one empty track on your CM when it's all over and you wake up.

So in a boxing match I'd stick it out as long as possible before jazzing the gland.


On EA from SR4a:
- Enhanced articulation provides its user with a +1 dice pool modifier on any test involving Physical skills that are linked to Physical attributes.
- There are three types of skills in Shadowrun—Active skills, Knowledge skills and Language skills.

If you're trying to go RAW-lawyer on EA, you're referring to a type of skill that doesn't exist. There isn't a skill type called "Physical Skills", and if you search the SR4a pdf for all its references, the term is used loosely in different ways in half a dozen places. There are Physical Active Skills, but that's not what EA refers to. Check p120 of SR4a. It has a list of skills linked to physical attributes. That's what I allow the +1 on for EA. I'm not sure how you can say your enhanced articulation helps you climb, palm items, and do gymnastics better but has no effect when swinging a sword, wrestling, dodging, or even firing a weapon. The BBB doesn't maintain its terminology in every reference so it's hard to say definitively what they intended with EA. I don't have a problem giving out the +1 (which isn't a huge deal anyway) on tests linked to physical attributes.

Mesh

Yeah, just noticed that. To be honest, I think I've slapped a few points of it onto every Adept I've made in SR4 (since they all tend to be martial artist types), so it's such a "core" power to me I forgot it's not in the main book.

SR4A pg 124 would like some words with you.

Yes, I covered that. "Physical Active Skills" which is not what EA references. That's why I think excluding the +1 from combat skills is not RAW justified.

Mesh

Considering that "Physical" is capitalized, while "skills" is not, the only thing it could possibly be referring to is Physical Active Skills.

I don't buy it. If it was referring to Physical Active Skills, it would have said that and not physical or Physical (which the lawyers are latching onto as significant), but it doesn't. If you really want to get rules-lawyery, then I'd counter by saying "skills" is not capitalized so obviously it's a general reference not a skill type reference. However, since the p124 reference isn't first letter capitalized anyway "PHYSICAL ACTIVE SKILLS", I'd say the RAW argument for excluding the +1 from combat skills based on capitalization is insufficient justification.

Ultimately, since the terminology references are inconsistent, it comes down to what you believe is reasonable and what you believe is balanced. I don't buy any reasonable explanation for it to work on gymnastics but not dodge, because it's in a different column on certain pages. I also don't believe the +1 is unbalancing. If you don't want to allow it in your games though, that's fine.

Mesh

Mesh: Activesofts and Reflex Recorders also don't specifically list Active skills, but both distinguish between Physical and Combat as types of skills, and Activesofts flag exact terms matching the subdivisions used earlier in the book for Active skill types. If "Physical skills" are the same as any skill that is physical, then are Technical skills the same as any skill which is technical?

Can I use my articulation for Forgery and Locksmith? Both are physical tasks linked to a Physical attribute. What about Gunnery and Pilot Ground Craft?

They are linked to a physical attribute so I would allow it. The write up for Enhanced Articulation says:

"A number of procedures like joint-surface coating, relubrication, and tendon and ligament augmentation lead to more fluid muscle and joint action."

To me more fluid muscle and joint action will aid you in anything requiring the use of those augmented parts of your body. Do more fluid muscle control and better joint action help you use your hand to forge better? Yes. Do they allow you to better handle a weapon? Yes. I can see them doing all of those reasonably and logically. What is the argument for saying it aids in gymnastics but not dodge? A capital P?

As I said, the terminology is not consistent. The write up in EA does not use the same terminology as in reflex recorders. I looked at every reference to "physical skill" in the book, and I'm fine with the +1 going to anything linked to a physical attribute. If I played with a GM who wouldn't allow it, I would make the above case. If she still had a problem with it, then that's that. The +1 isn't a big deal. Any street meat with a pair of sunglasses can get a +2 from a smartlink.

Mesh

What seems more likely:
The writers use Capital Letters to call out indistinct "best-guess-based" skills that fit that description, which happen to coincide exactly with a subdivision they made earlier in the book, but that is merely coincidental and has no bearing on what they're referring to when they use the same terminology elsewhere.

or
The writers use Capital Letters to reference the specific skill list subdivisions earlier in the book, in the same way that something that boosts Street knowledge tests is different than something that boosts your knowledge of road composition or construction.

You can argue that, reasonably, it ought to benefit Dodge, but that's not the same as saying that "Physical skills" is a fictitious category as far as the rules are concerned.



I honestly don't follow you here. The same apparent definition seems to be in use for Activesofts, Reflex Recorders, and the Articulation. Where else are you seeing Physical skills referring to any skill which is performed physically?



Then why call out "Physical skills linked to Physical attributes" if a Physical skill is by definition one linked to a Physical attribute? What's a Combat skill? A skill linked to a "Combat" attribute? Or one used in combat? Can I get a Reflex Recorder for my Industrial Mechanic? That involves physical actions, and I might use it in combat. What about Astral Combat? It has Combat right in the name! It doesn't get much more combatty than that!

I have to make do with a physical (not Phyiscal ) copy of the book here, so I honestly can't say that I've checked all the references - but across Activesofts, Reflex Recorders, and Articulations, the apparent distinctions are consistent (AS and RR both note Combat as a category alongside Physical). Can you provide an example of the "inconsistent terminology" you're talking about?



And you're welcome to do so, but "I can't think of a realistic reason why it wouldn't" is not the same as "it does according to the rules as stated in the book"

Yeah; it occured to me afterwards that holding out on using the pump could have been wise; saving it as an "ace up his sleeve". That said, Metal was kicking ass the first few rounds before it wore off.
Yes; I did choose to only use the main book; the character builder I use has most of them in it, but I don't own them, so it seemed simplier just to stick to the BBB.
Also, I agree the fight wasn't very friendly to the adrenaline pump. But to be honest, I was just trying to make it as realistic as possible. Boxers do work the count before getting up; and honestly, if I was fighting a guy that jazzed up, I would do the same. Additionally, if you watch Boxing the Refs do usually give the guy a moment to compose themselves; even if the other guy is raring to go. I specifically chose to make a boxing match instead of an MMA, mainly because I don't know the rules to MMA; Metal would have murdered him if he didn't have to wait for him to get up.

-DrZaius

You went too far into rules-lawyery for me to keep up. You win, Five Eyes.

Mesh

"Winner by RAW, Five Eyes!"

I might throw some together with the pit fighters I made for my PbP pit-fighting game that never took off. Hummm It could be fun watchign a pixie vs troll armed "MMA" fight. But I think that pixie would kick the trolls ass. With concealment and something like 10-11P per punch.

Yeah; I wanted to make it as evenly matched as possible, outside of obviously one being an adept and one being a sammie. For example, I could have easily given the sammy wired 2, but I don't think the adept would have had a chance. With cyberware and bioware, the sammie gets a lot more stuff than the adept can afford.

They were good solid builds, but yeah, they seemed designed more to be similar to each other than to play to the specific strengths of adepts vs. augmented.

Be interesting to see some of the classic SR melee mismatches done up in a similar style. Dodge/IP sam vs tank adept, for example.

Heh, I just got a mental image of distance strike on a downed opponent being ruled a foul.

i'd switch Killing Hands with Counterstrike and you could also drop Dodge, because he'll need to block anyways then.
the opponent's stun monitor is smaller than physical. ok, he might get to stay up longer, if he manages to stall the adrenaline pump to ignore a full stun monitor. but then you just need to chicken around, till he drops

oh wait, go for Elemental Strike (Electricity), he won't stand up very soon...

I think in round 2, I'm going to have an Adept who is particularly good at dodging and blocking attacks, and a sammy with 2 cyberarms stuffed to the gills with augmentations.

These were neither good nor solid builds, I'm sorry I mean no offense to the OP but this statement is fundamentally inaccurate

Also Mesh's read is similar to my own. If you don't like it, it's not my problem

Further if the devs had intended articulation to apply only to Physical skills (which again doesn't exist) why did they give the pregen hacker that bioware when they IIRC have none of those skills.

Oh snap, I just used the pregens as an argument for something!

Perhaps to offset the -1 die penalty for defaulting? Just a guess; it does seem somewhat silly for that character.

Maybe while the hacker was in the clinic getting his other mods, the doc mentioned that he should exercise more, so he was like, "Yeah, doc, I am TOTALLY going to do that! You know what? While you're in there, throw in a little Enhanced Articulation, 'cause as soon as I recover from this surgery, I am gonna be whipping everyone's butt down at the corner basketball court. Those suckers will think I'm just some computer nerd, then I'll bust out my sweet new Articulatively Enhancified moves on them! HAHA!"

I'm gonna go with Lurk on this one, EA helps you move better. If you're using a skill the requires movement (as little as a finger or as big as your whole body) you should receive the bonus for it.

Actually I retract one portion of my previous statement, these are solid builds that are sub optimal for their stated profession.

/shrug
I understand the argument for adding counterstrike; I'm just not interested in Shadowrun beyond the BBB. With it, and almost any roleplaying game, I find the extra books are written to give players ridiculous new powers, rather than add a lot of depth to the setting. I've already commented on my opinion of the adrenaline pump giving Metal a distinct advantage in the beginning of the fight, that he was unable to capitalize on. Maybe around here it's considered a "useless" tech, but I thought it was pretty cool, and made the fight exciting. YMMV.

-DrZaius

To be quite fair the new books for shadow run don't add too many rediculas powers. In fact quite a lot of what they add is almost necessary for some archetypes. Though that's manly Unwired for matrix users.

I agree. Had it been used later in the fight (or if Magik hadn't gone 'oshi-' and focused on staying the hell out of the way), it would've made a solid end to the match.

Most combat wouldn't be in a boxing ring, however. In a street fight, the guy would've gone down and Metal would've turned him into tomato paste rather than losing the rush while the fight was stopped.

Or in a street fight, Metal's 17 dice would've lost to Magic's 21, on average rolls, and the whole fight could've gone the other way a whole lot sooner.

As it is, him landing a haymaker that early was kind of a fluke.

The joy of dicerolling is that it never quite does what you expect it to.

I was going by pretty much the exact same things happening in my head, yet no fight pause while the guy tried to get back up. Add the bonuses for position/prone and Metal might've really ended the fight in the first round or two before Magik's patience was rewarded. Just another thought experiment - I've never used an adrenal pump/glandything as I go fairly specific directions on my cyberware.

Well, I tried to play it as if I was both characters. If some guy is throwing 9 hits against me, I'm going to full dodge, instead of partial. Additionally, in round 2 both fighters are blocking a lot more- handy, when you have extra dice to that combat skill. So far it's not looking good for the adept, but we'll see how it turns out. I might cave and add some counterstrike; he's going to get creamed otherwise. Could someone post a quote of the rules in street magic for counter-striking? I want to make sure the wording is the same as the character generator I'm using.

Edit: The wording I have is, "Counterstrike (Level 1) (0.5 PP) Allows an adept to seamlessly spring from a successful defense in melee combat to a powerful offense. To use this power the adept must first successfully parry or block a melee attack. +1 dice plus net hits to next next available action."

New fight is up. Things did not go as well for the adept this go-round. For some reason, I did not remember that reaction enhancers could be combined with Wired reflexes. When you win every initiative, it's tough for your opponent to have a shot.

-DrZaius

Unwired is indeed a manly book for matrix users.

Have to disagree a bit on the power creep, though. While it isn't that bad, overall, it is more noticeable for unarmed combat. Arsenal gives you the martial arts rules (up to +3 DV, other bonuses, and all of those maneuvers). And an augmented type with the born rich and restricted gear qualities can really start piling on the 'ware, to the point that they can actually compete with a bioware-enhanced adept.