If a character specializes in Semi-automatics for the Pistols skill does that cover every pistol that can fire in SA mode, so one that has SA/BF/FA would be included? Or just pistols that only fire in SA?

I'd say it's whenever you're firing a Pistol in SA mode. Kind of an odd specialization.

I would not allow that broad of a specialization (and yes, I'm aware it's RAW), but I imagine that most GMs would only allow it to apply to SA only pistols or restrict it to when pistols are fired in SA mode.

Personally, I would consider this specialization to cover any form of autoloading pistol. It would not cover breach loading, muzzle loading, revolvers, or any sort of bolt action pistol.

I don't have my books handy to refer to the other specializations in this category.

It seems that alot of people are way too eager to try to disect the rules rather than roll with them.

Remember that SA refers to Single Action (requiring a cocked hammer) not semi-automatic (auto-loading).

No, SA is semi-automatic.

Semi-automatics is almost the default specialization, since most guns will fall under this category. The only pistols it doesn't apply to would be things like holdouts and revolvers (and tasers, of course). Personally, I would not allow it to be used when firing pistols in burst fire mode (for ones like the Ares Viper or Savalette Guardian).

So yeah, it's pretty broad.

I'm seriously considering restricting weapon specializations in my future games to a particular weapon: Ares Predator IV, AK-97, etc. From a power standpoint it seems appropriate; it will be the gun you carry with you, so you will generally get the bonus. If you have to pick up someone else's gun, you won't get the +2...unless it's the same model as yours.

You might also consider +1 for categories (shotguns, SMGs, revolvers), and +2 for specific models, if you're trying to lower the power a tad.

I'm fine with Longarms (Shotgun), or Automatics (Machine Pistol), but obviously there can be some specializations that might be too broad.

well, that is why I didn't vollunteer to GM @ GenCon even though I live in Indy, not enough experience with the rules...

Unfortunately...

At least it's not "martial arts".

Yea, SA specialization is RAW from what I remember, which seems a bit silly since with the gun modification rules you can mod a SS revolver to get a SA firing mode as well. So it might be useful to consider a houserule there.

Well, all specializations are basically GM-approval. :/

I don't allow a semi-automatic specialization, but I do allow an autoloaders specialization. It does cover a majority of the guns, but there are enough good non-autoloaders that it works.

My houserule to fix it is very likely going to turn into just making Firearms into one skill again, with automatics, longarms and pistols being specializations. Ultimately most runners just end up carrying the one or two superior models of weaponry most of the time anyway. Might as well just end this farce the easy way.

Isn't everything with GM approval?

Yes but to take a spesilisation it MUST be GM approved by letter of RAW.

That is something I have considered. From a role play perspective it makes little sense to have someone who is a wiz with an assault rifle but can't fire a pistol to save his life(or a hunting rifle for that matter), and from a game design perspective automatics is so overpowered compared to the other two skills.

Yeah, that's a whole other perennial discussion.

To add RL expeirence revolvers vs semi-auto hand guns do have a very different feel.
It comes to cocking the gun. Even if a gun is double action, if it isnn't cocked it takes more pull on the tirgger to make it go 'bang' the harder you pull the more likely you are to pull it off target. A semi-auto after the first shot will cock itself so it takes much less pressure on the trigger. By comparison a revolver must be re-cocked. You can just pull the trigger on a doubler action but for more accurate fire you mannually cock it-pull the hammer back with you thumb. Yes this will take the weapon out of line while going on but back on line it will be a more accurate shot than if you had just pulled the trigger.

Personally when firing a revolver on the range I find I mannually cock each shot. The weapon seem more accurate than the semis but it is slower firing.

You seem to have forgotten about defaulting. Yea it kinda sucks when ya have to default, but as someone who grew up shooting shotguns and rifles when I bought a pistol and used it, well I SUCKED at first.

True enough Daylen, I'm decent with rifles myself and rather bad with pistols.
But it makes a lot less sense that you can be at world champion level with sniper/sporting rifles (including those with SA mode) but have to default when using an assault rifle in SA mode.

Ah now that is something else. I have always found it silly and a bit ignorant that rifles and assault rifles were considered different. I think it is a relic of the politics of the early 90s and 80s when progressives were trying to eliminate the 2nd amendment and BS like the assault weapons ban and related talk that tried to make it seem like assault rifle really had any meaning beyond the weapon looking scary and militarized.

It's not so much a question of going from AR to Pistol in the same skill, but going from Pistol to Machine Pistol, or from AR to Sport Rifle, or from LMG to AR, etc. It's the little jumps that result in a DP that's 7 dice smaller that bothers people.

Personally, I just use fewer categories. Pistols and Machine Pistols, SMG/AR/LMG, etc. It's still tricky, of course.

Um. Assault Rifle does have a specific meaning. It's a selective-fire rifle firing a high-speed cartridge that's smaller than a battle rifle. That's not to say it's wholly distinct from any other rifle, but it's hardly 'no meaning but scary'.

I at one point semi blanced the firearms skill. I added a few of heavy weapons to the group. Then had sidearms(pistols-Machine Pistols), close quaters(Shotguns,SMGs), support and the other one was rifles and ARs. I can't quite recall all the groupings now. This evend out the numbers per group and made the whole firearms group a more vieable group. In fact Machine Pistols might have been in Close quaters. I was also considering adding some of the more exotic guns in to a few catagorys as exotic weapon skills are way to pircy for what they do.

so it seems. I stand corrected.
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FirearmsGlossary/

I still don't see any reason to have them grouped separately in SR.

Like playing the game?

No they can be beat into submission. Withholding food from misbehaving DMs works as well as not letting them out of the basement.

If someone is choosing to invest their energy into pistols instead of automatics or what have you, I say godspeed and enjoy the 2 dice.

And, if they're burst firing with the pistol, then they'll need those two dice to make up for the fact that they can't get a gas vent.

But then they won't have them.

I'm wondering if the Pistol specializations didn't somehow slip through editing. As written, they are: Holdouts, Revolvers, Semi-Automatics, or Tasers. I would expect the specializations to be: Light Pistols, Heavy Pistols, Holtouts, or Tasers.

Looking exclusively at the corebook, there is one revolver listed (defined as a pistol with a cylinder), the Ruger Super Warhawk. Arsenal only offers three more.

Maybe, but I know a few people who are extremely deadly with a rifle, but can barely hit a paper target at 7 meters with a Handgun... The two skills are different enough that it does matter.

Keep the Faith

So you found that one specialization is broader than another. It's not like Pistols is the only skill, where this is the case:
Diving(SCUBA) vs Diving(Arctic)
Unarmed Combat(Martial Arts) vs Unarmed Combat(Subdual Combat)
Pilot Groundcraft(Wheeled) vs Pilot Groundcraft(Bike)

Don't forget different Specializations needn't be mutually exclusive.

Pilot Ground (Vehicle). Oh well. That's why the Specs in the book are all suggestions for the GM to rule on in play.

This is not an appropriate Specialization. By RAW only those specializations in the book exist. Everything else is a houserule. Other than that, where does it say that Specializations need more approval by the GM than anything else?

BTW Pilot Groundcraft (Wheeled) is not as bad as Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts). at least Hovercrafts and tracked vehicles are in the Pilot skill as well. Martail Arts include all possible uses for Unarmed Combat.

Actually, it has been commented by those who developed the Edition, on more than one occassion, that the EXAMPLES of Specializations in the book are just that... Examples...

Keep the Faith

Comments and FAQ are not RAW. I don't advocate disallowing other Specializations in a particular game I just say that they are not RAW.

No, RAW is that the GM approves any specializations, and you can use the examples as… examples. You have to read between the lines.

Also, it was a joke. Duh.

Thoroughly true. I can certainly see how Revolvers and Semi-Automatics are far more different skill-wise than Light Pistols and Heavy Pistols. I suppose it's the gamer mind in me that is conflicted with that ruling.


I always took Blades (swords) and Blades (parrying) to be mutually exclusive. I know you can parry with a sword, but I figured it was specialising in assault with one weapon, or defence with many. I carried this thought on to Unarmed Combat where ~(martial arts) and ~(parrying) again are mutually exclusive.

Now I see my dilemma. It came from when I first read the table in SR4A page 157:
I read the terms in brackets as specializations. I see now that they come after Reaction instead of the skill, so they are not specific specializations.

So what do you reckon, do Blades (swords) and Blades (parrying) both cover defence?

I think that Blades (Swords) gives the bonus to that sword in any relevant use.

Exactly, but Blades(Parrying) also covers defense with knives, axes, spears etc.
Nowhere does it say that for any given test only one type of specialization may apply.
That is exactly why the SCUBA Specialization also applies for dives in the arctic or in caves or whatever. Unless you use an LBA or an external compressor or go snorkeling, the Specialization applies. Since Liquid Breathing is still Science Fiction, I can't say how self-contained such an appartus would be and the SCUBA specialization may even apply.

Umm,Guys Semi-automatics prefers to a specific type of pistols not to a fire-mode.
I would think thats kinda obvious.

It is obvious. It's just very broad, which is exactly what everyone's been saying all thread. It amounts to Pistols (Pistols).

I like that phrase!

That got me thinking, could I take Hacking (edge) to gain +2 dice to any matrix action on which I spend edge?

Then the question is, what happens if you mod such a pistol for BF or FA? What happens if you add SA to the Ruger Thunderbolt? Does the Specialization apply to the Savalette Guardian?

All of these weapons must be by definition autoloaders (which according to the article is synonymous with semi-automatic pistol) but they do not necessarily fire in SA mode.

In real life...in real life pistols are also loaded with magazines, not clips...



Would you also call every character which is not a sample char from the books "not RAW"?

Magazine simply refers to the ammo storage system. All weapons use a magazine, just some use a rotating cylinder magazine, some use a removable box magazine, some use an internal box magazine, some use a slide magazine... Sorry, got carried away there. The terminology of clip/magazine/cylinder/break/muzzle is used as a game term to define what type of action is used to reload the weapon.

Yes, it's very broad, but what the heck. It's not like pistols are the most powerful weapons out there.

Bye
Thanee

You know, I would have been totally disappointed with this forum if nobody had contested that seemingly simple point within half an hour
Although I expected something along the lines of some obscure prototype pistol made in a garage workshop in the back of the beyond, which actually is loaded with a stripper clip


OK, just to quickly address your points: If you load something with a magazine that obviously means the mag is detachable, and IMO the definition of "magazine" also includes some sort of feeding capacity (so a belt box is no magazine)



And as game terms the whole clip/magazine/drum thing is a very positive example of well-defined terms used in a consistent manner. Just that the terms used don't align with real-life definitions of clips and magazines is a pet peeve of mine.

Ask and you shall recive

Sorry it took this long, i was at work