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Caelwyn
So if I plan to make a character with cyber skull, torso, arms and legs, are there any hard rules for what can be put in me (before or after) as well as those?

Are there any rules of thumb? Obviously muscle replacement and similar augments don't make sense. What about geneware? I'm guessing most things that affect your nervous system, internal organs, glands, etc should all be fine but what about tailored pheromones?
Hand-E-Food
QUOTE (Caelwyn @ Jun 23 2010, 11:56 AM) *
So if I plan to make a character with cyber skull, torso, arms and legs, are there any hard rules for what can be put in me (before or after) as well as those?

Are there any rules of thumb? Obviously muscle replacement and similar augments don't make sense. What about geneware? I'm guessing most things that affect your nervous system, internal organs, glands, etc should all be fine but what about tailored pheromones?

Realise that those six items on their own cost 6.25 essence, making you clinicaly dead. You can overcome this with Alphawear or better.

If you're trying to add bioware on top of this, everything inside your skull and torso still exists. Anything that applies there should be okay, except maybe a skin pocket. Any bioware that improves your body, strength or agility would be useless. Reaction is probably okay.
JesterZero
QUOTE (Caelwyn @ Jun 22 2010, 05:56 PM) *
So if I plan to make a character with cyber skull, torso, arms and legs, are there any hard rules for what can be put in me (before or after) as well as those?

Are there any rules of thumb? Obviously muscle replacement and similar augments don't make sense. What about geneware? I'm guessing most things that affect your nervous system, internal organs, glands, etc should all be fine but what about tailored pheromones?


SR4A (p.341) states, "Bodyware that does not have a Capacity rating must be installed directly into the user’s body; it cannot be installed into cyberlimbs. Bodyware with a Capacity rating may be installed in cyberlimbs, costing capacity rather than Essence." Honestly, if you choose to enforce that, then you resolve quite a few issues straight away.

Where things get a touch hinky is the torso and the skull, since those are understood to simply be shells, and not a full-on replacement. Getting a cyber-torso doesn't eliminate your internal organs. Getting a cyber-skull doesn't eliminate your brain (obvious jokes aside). Honestly, it already sounds like you have a very sensible grasp on the idea.

In our group we use a house rule that states that you can have 1-2 cyberlimbs and they'll play nice with anything controversial (you mention muscle replacement for instance), 2-4 reduce the rating of anything controversial by 50% (round down), and 5-6 eliminates the bonuses from anything controversial. I stress that is a house rule however, and we tend to prefer simplified rules as opposed to getting into nitty-gritty details. Your mileage may vary.

To your question regarding tailored pheromones, humans produce pheromones primarily from their skin, specifically the skin's apocrine sebaceous glands. Typically, those are focused around the underarms, nipples (of both sexes), the groin area, the mouth area, the eyes, and the ears. If they still have those areas for the bioware to utilize, it should be fine.
Yerameyahu
While there were rules for it in SR3, SR4 doesn't actually address things like bone lacing, dermal plating, muscle replacement, etc., as they interact with limb replacement. Munchkins will argue that anything goes as long as any part of it is outside the limbs, and GMs will tell them to shut up. smile.gif YMMV.
Caelwyn
Yeah I didn't expect to be able to start with everything i wanted right away wink.gif

I was disappointed that there was nothing as good as type 0 system for cyberware though.

I did have a couple more questions:

1. With averaging attributes due to cyberware, do any and all fractions round up?

2. When using cybersuites with adapsin and biocompatibility i'm assuming the 10% from each don't stack but are handled separately. Is there a way i'm supposed to be doing it other than going to (at times) 5 decimal places?
Lanlaorn
I apply the essence bonuses multiplicatively myself since a) that's the most strict interpretation so you can't accidentally build a character others think is too strong and b) all the spreadsheets do it too.

So Biocompatibility and Alphaware would be 0.9*0.8 = 0.72 multiplier, as opposed to an additive 10% off + 20% off is 30% off (0.7 multiplier), although honestly the differences are so small, if your essence was 4.993 I think most everyone would let you count that as 5.0, lol.
Yerameyahu
It depends on the specific version you use, and it doesn't seem like the devs really know/agree when writing them. smile.gif
toturi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 23 2010, 10:50 AM) *
While there were rules for it in SR3, SR4 doesn't actually address things like bone lacing, dermal plating, muscle replacement, etc., as they interact with limb replacement. Munchkins will argue that anything goes as long as any part of it is outside the limbs, and GMs will tell them to shut up. smile.gif YMMV.

Bone lacing, dermal plating, et al provide their bonuses. There is no rule that forbids or limits their effectiveness with respect to cyberlimbs.

GMs can do what they wish. Including allowing such to stack.
Yerameyahu
Yes, that's what I said.
Mäx
QUOTE (Caelwyn @ Jun 23 2010, 05:30 AM) *
2. When using cybersuites with adapsin and biocompatibility i'm assuming the 10% from each don't stack but are handled separately. Is there a way i'm supposed to be doing it other than going to (at times) 5 decimal places?

The line from multiple devs is that those all stack, so 10%+10%+20%=40% reduction and that is supposedly included in to Augmentation errata that we still haven't got.
Caelwyn
Sweet, that makes calculations a lot easier.
Ol' Scratch
As mentioned, 4th edition doesn't have any rules about the compatibility of full-body mods with cyberlimbs. In 3rd edition, both the costs (Essence and nuyen) and effectiveness of such implants were reduced by (I think) 10% per limb, with (still, I think) total degradation after reaching a certain point. I wish my memory was better, but there's no reason at all that those rules can't be cut-and-pasted directly into 4th edition. The only problem is that it makes calculating everything a bit of a hassle, which is likely why they didn't bother carrying it over.
Stahlseele
Well, Price and Essence-Cost were lessened by 10% per Cyber-Limb, but effectivity of Stuff only got lessened with the third Limb.
So if you had Dermal-Plating Level one and two Cyber-Limbs, you still got the +1 to Cyber-Body-Value from the Dermal-Plating.
But as soon as you got another Cyber-Limb? Poof went the +1 from the Dermal-Plating, but you still got to pay the left over Essence and Money-Cost.
JesterZero
QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 22 2010, 08:22 PM) *
Bone lacing, dermal plating, et al provide their bonuses. There is no rule that forbids or limits their effectiveness with respect to cyberlimbs.

GMs can do what they wish. Including allowing such to stack.


Not necessarily true. Bone lacing and dermal plating (and muscle replacement while we're on the subject) do not have capacity ratings, which means that they cannot be installed in cyberlimbs per p.341 of SR4A. Both a cyberskull and a cybertorso are listed as cyberlimbs on p.343 of SR4A. If the character in question is sporting 2 cyberarms, 2 cyberlegs, a cybertorso, and a cyberskull, then there are no "limbs" left to install bodyware into, unless said bodyware has a capacity rating. The expectation is that rather than buying dermal plating, the player will enhance the body rating of the cyberlimbs, and rather than buying muscle replacement, they will enhance the strength and agility ratings of the cyberlimbs.

I agree that things get into houserule territory when you start mixing and matching cyberlimbs with non-cyberlimbs and trying to determine what does what. Players and GMs should work that out ahead of time. Some tables will go the "everything stacks unless the book says it doesn't" route and some will prefer the "nothing stacks unless the book says it does" route.

And some of that makes for strange occurrences per the core rules (such as a character with all 6 cyberlimbs straight up CANNOT get wired reflexes, but CAN get a synaptic booster). But to a certain degree, that makes perfect sense (since the former requires implants all over the body, whereas the latter basically just modified the spine). Other occurrences make no sense at all (such as muscle augmentation and muscle toner seemingly being completely valid options, even if you have no actual muscles left, which is pretty much an unfortunate side-effect of the fact that none of the bioware has capacity ratings). Or the player who argues that even though he's sporting every other possible cyberlimb, since he DOESN'T have a cyberskull, muscle replacement 4 is perfectly legitimate because his neck muscles are just that spectacular. Again, GMs will arbitrate this according to what they feel is appropriate.

But for both extremes (no cyberlimbs vs. 6 cyberlimbs) the rules are pretty clear. Not entirely sensible at all points, but clear.
Yerameyahu
No, you can *always* install in (under) the torso/skull, because those aren't replaced. That's why I said that munchkins would try to argue that the torso gets the muscle replacement, etc. The only thing RAW has a cut and dried ban on would be an implant that goes entirely inside a limb that's no longer there.
Stahlseele
QUOTE
a character with all 6 cyberlimbs straight up CANNOT get wired reflexes

Aside from the Essence-Cost, why not? The Implant goes to the brain/brainstem/spinal Cord.
All of which is left completely intact under cyberskull and cybertorso O.o
I don't really care, i'm just bored and curious as to what might be seen as justification for such a ruling.
JesterZero
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 23 2010, 11:44 AM) *
No, you can *always* install in (under) the torso/skull, because those aren't replaced. That's why I said that munchkins would try to argue that the torso gets the muscle replacement, etc. The only thing RAW has a cut and dried ban on would be an implant that goes entirely inside a limb that's no longer there.


I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "those aren't replaced." For 1.5 essence and 0.75 essence, you're definitely replacing SOMETHING. It's certainly not just a breastplate and a helmet glued to your skin. The fact that the description lists them as "shells" simply means that they do not come with cybernetic organs and cybernetic brains the same way that your cyberleg comes with a cybernetic femur (or whatever). We could sit around and debate exactly how deep the shell goes...subcutaneous? Sub-muscular? Sub-skeletal? Intraskeletal? And you know what? Neither of us could ever be 100% sure because the books just plain doesn't say. But that doesn't mean that nothing makes sense ever again.

Again, they are listed as cyberlimbs on p. 343. P.341 clearly states what CAN and CANNOT be put into a cyberlimb. On the other hand, you CAN apply the cyberlimb enhancements to them, which means that you have legitimate ways to increase their body, agility, and strength, which eliminates the need for most of the cyberware without capacity ratings.

Now I'll grant you that the descriptions could be clearer. I'll grant you that not all possible combinations even make sense here, and that a GM needs to get involved at some point. My point is that there is a clear definition of what a cyberlimb IS, and a clear list of what CAN and CANNOT be installed in a cyberlimb. If all you HAVE is cyberlimbs, it's pretty cut and dry. (*And I propose that we should join forces and beat down the first person to even mention Shiva Arms*)

On the other hand, if you're playing mix-and-match, it's not nearly as clear. Houserule whatever works for your group. I won't be offended. *grins*
Doc Chase
I'd say the essence cost is the biggest factor. IIRC, replacing that much of your body with metal doesn't leave much left to install that kind of accelerator.
Stahlseele
/mee guesses that now would be a bad time to remind people o the surged cyber zombie centaur with 4 legs and 6 arms . .
initiative stuff is really the only thing that can not be gotten via limb replacement-addons . .
JesterZero
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 23 2010, 12:04 PM) *
Aside from the Essence-Cost, why not? The Implant goes to the brain/brainstem/spinal Cord.
All of which is left completely intact under cyberskull and cybertorso O.o
I don't really care, i'm just bored and curious as to what might be seen as justification for such a ruling.


Yeah, here's the fun part: I (mostly) agree with you (from a common-sense perspective). And if it was my table, I'd work something out with the player.

Argument from crunch: wired reflexes doesn't have a listed capacity rating, which means it cannot be installed in cyberlimbs if all you have is cyberlimbs (again, pp.341-343 of SR4A).

Argument from fluff: ""This highly invasive operation implants a multitude of neural boosters and adrenalin stimulators in strategic locations all over the body..." (p.342). It's hard to make this work if you no longer have any use for adrenalin, or if you no longer have the necessary "all over the body."

Would it help if I mentioned that our table assumes that the cybertorso and cyberskull are surgically implanted at the intraskeletal level, meaning you basically have squishy organs surrounded by cybernetic bones, muscle, and maybe fake skin? Or that we long ago created a synthetic version of the cyberskull which is basically just bone lacing for your head?

Again, I really want to make it clear that I'm not trying to come in here and just stomp on everyone; if it was my game, we'd figure something out. The simplest way is just to point him/her at the synaptic booster. Or just let them buy the thing and handwave it...trying to manage all that essence loss is probably punishment enough. But if I'm put in a position of HAVING to defend RAW, that's how I'd try to do it, since you asked.
Mäx
QUOTE (JesterZero @ Jun 23 2010, 11:06 PM) *
Again, they are listed as cyberlimbs on p. 343. P.341 clearly states what CAN and CANNOT be put into a cyberlimb

But thats not a problem at all, as mucle toner/aug and their ilk do not list anykind of reguiment on where you have to but them cyber.gif
JesterZero
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 23 2010, 12:18 PM) *
But thats not a problem at all, as mucle toner/aug and their ilk do not list anykind of reguiment on where you have to but them cyber.gif


You're absolutely right. The fact that someone simply forgot to include capacity ratings on the bioware table allows for all kinds of interpretations and loopholes. Technically, you can have really dense bones even if you don't have bones, really toned and augmented muscle even if you don't have muscle, really bulletproof skin even if you don't have skin, etc.

I thought I already pointed out that not everything made sense in a previous post. *grins*
Mäx
QUOTE (JesterZero @ Jun 23 2010, 11:24 PM) *
You're absolutely right. The fact that someone simply forgot to include capacity ratings on the bioware table

Nobody forgot anythink, you cant build somethink that's bilological into somethint mechanical, that pretty obvious.
Yerameyahu
The point, again, is that SR3 had rules about this and SR4 doesn't. Either every GM makes separate calls on every little thing, or allows everything; there's no official guidance. That's the whole problem.

Cybertorso and cyberskull are definitely shells, not replacements.
Deadmannumberone
It should also be pointed out that cybereyes and cyberears are not included with the cyberskull, and need to be purchased with essence.
JesterZero
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 23 2010, 01:02 PM) *
The point, again, is that SR3 had rules about this and SR4 doesn't. Either every GM makes separate calls on every little thing, or allows everything; there's no official guidance. That's the whole problem.

Cybertorso and cyberskull are definitely shells, not replacements.

Thank you. That's what I've been saying.

Here's what I don't understand: at the end of the day that doesn't change the fact that they are both also cyberlimbs, and the rules for cyberlimbs apply to them. The are listed under the cyberlimb header; the text even explicitly says they are included in "this category" (referring to cyberlimbs). As cyberlimbs, they can be customized; they can be enhanced. And per RAW, you cannot install bodyware in them that does not have a capacity rating.

Each category of cyberware has it's own rules for interaction with cyberlimbs. Headware lets you opt out of having to pay essence; you can seriously install a commlink in your foot. Eyeware and earware are self-contained units. And bodyware explicitly states that if it doesn't have a capacity rating, it cannot be installed into a cyberlimb.

Bioware gets super-strange when you throw it into the mix; I'm happy to make that an entirely separate conversation so as not to muddy the waters. But I really don't see what's controversial about this at all.

Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (JesterZero @ Jun 23 2010, 03:25 PM) *
Bioware gets super-strange when you throw it into the mix; I'm happy to make that an entirely separate conversation so as not to muddy the waters. But I really don't see what's controversial about this at all.


No it doesn't:

QUOTE (SR4A pg 343)
Cyberlimbs cannot hold any bioware, nor any cyber-implants that take up Essence rather than Capacity. Essence cost, Capacity, and other stats can be found on the Cyberlimb table (below).


Granted most GMs will make exceptions for things like digestive expansion, and cultured bioware, just as they'll make exceptions for wired reflexes and reaction enhancers, but the absolute RAW does not allow them.
JesterZero
I don't know how many times I've read the rules and hadn't seen that before. Thanks.
Ol' Scratch
You also over looked this rule:
    Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in this category, though they are in fact shells rather than full replacements.
Or that they're listed in the index as "Cybertorso, Hollow," too.
JesterZero
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 23 2010, 05:02 PM) *
You also over looked this rule:
    Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in this category, though they are in fact shells rather than full replacements.

That I definitely did NOT overlook, but what's your point?
Ol' Scratch
Nothing. Obviously. They are, in fact, solid and treated in all ways just like other cyberlimbs, as clearly indicated by that one, lone rule.
JesterZero
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 23 2010, 05:05 PM) *
Nothing. Obviously. They are, in fact, solid and treated in all ways just like other cyberlimbs, as clearly indicated by that one, lone rule.

I'm guessing that's sarcasm, but I still fail to see how it's remotely germane. Yes, cyber-torsos and cyber-skulls are cyberlimbs. Yes, they are shells rather than full replacements. They still cost essence, have capacity, and are subject to availability and cost. They are still subject to rules governing cyberlimbs. What's the issue?
Ol' Scratch
THEY have Capacity ratings. Meaning, they are limited in what they can hold with the Capacity rules. Hence their relatively low Capacity ratings. You still have your organs and everything else crammed inside the shells that are cybertorso and cyberskulls, and those organs can be augmented to your heart's desire. Literally and figuratively.
JesterZero
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 23 2010, 05:22 PM) *
THEY have Capacity ratings. Meaning, they are limited in what they can hold with the Capacity rules. Hence their relatively low Capacity ratings. You still have your organs and everything else crammed inside the shells that are cybertorso and cyberskulls, and those organs can be augmented to your heart's desire. Literally and figuratively.

That's exactly what I've been saying.

Someone else brought up the point that by RAW, you cannot put bioware into a cyberlimb, although most GM's would allow it for organs. That wasn't me.

My point (back on page 1), was that having the full gamut of cyberlimbs obviated bodyware without capacity ratings, such as wired reflexes, dermal plating, and muscle replacement.

In fact, what I wrote was "Where things get a touch hinky is the torso and the skull, since those are understood to simply be shells, and not a full-on replacement. Getting a cyber-torso doesn't eliminate your internal organs. Getting a cyber-skull doesn't eliminate your brain (obvious jokes aside)."

So what are we disagreeing about?
Ol' Scratch
Wired Reflexes in particular (specifically because it's little more than neural and adrenalin boosts). I don't have any problem with Dermal Plating or Muscle Replacement either, though. Course, I don't see much of a point of bothering with Muscle Replacement since you won't get any benefit out of it whatsoever. Like you said, they're still treated as cyberlimbs, and cyberlimbs specifically state that you only use the limb's rating for Attribute Tests with Body, Strength, and Agility.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (JesterZero @ Jun 23 2010, 01:06 PM) *
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "those aren't replaced." For 1.5 essence and 0.75 essence, you're definitely replacing SOMETHING. It's certainly not just a breastplate and a helmet glued to your skin. The fact that the description lists them as "shells" simply means that they do not come with cybernetic organs and cybernetic brains the same way that your cyberleg comes with a cybernetic femur (or whatever). We could sit around and debate exactly how deep the shell goes...subcutaneous? Sub-muscular? Sub-skeletal? Intraskeletal? And you know what? Neither of us could ever be 100% sure because the books just plain doesn't say. But that doesn't mean that nothing makes sense ever again.


EDIT: Sorry, Never Mind...

Keep the Faith
JesterZero
I see.

Well, like I said earlier, if a player came to me and somehow had six cyberlimbs and wanted to boost their initiative with 'ware, I wouldn't say no. Purely given the fluff text for wired reflexes vs. synaptic boosters, I might point them towards the synaptic booster, but we're into houserule territory there. RAW, neither is acceptable. Wired is out because it doesn't have a capacity rating, and Synaptic is out purely because it's bioware. Considering that we both agree that no matter how many cyberlimbs you have, your central nervous system is still intact probably has a lot to do with why we both object to RAW when it comes to that.

The issue I have with dermal plating/muscle replacement interacting with cyberlimbs comes down to the basic idea that cyberlimb enhancement is dermal plating/muscle replacement. When you have skin and you start bonding metal and plastic plating all over yourself, we call that dermal plating. When you do the same thing with a cyberlimb we call that a rating x body enhancement to said cyberlimb. For muscle replacement, it's slightly more convoluted because in reality what passes for muscles in a standard cyberarm vs. a delta-ware cyberarm is probably significantly different. But at the end of the day, when we do whatever it is we do to be stronger/faster to a non-cyberlimb, it's muscle replacement. When we do the functionally-same thing to a cyberlimb, we call it a strength/agility enhancement.

Where I get annoyed as a GM is figuring out the middle ground, but that's a different story.

As you correctly pointed out, there's just no need for certain bodyware on a player who has taken a cyberlimb fetish to the extreme. If a player has somehow gone to the absolutely enormous trouble of replacing most of themself with machine parts, then their avenue for improvement is to get better machine parts. Applying enhancements to the meat just isn't an option anymore, because the meat is gone.

Like I said, I think we agree. smile.gif
Caelwyn
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 24 2010, 11:46 AM) *
Wired Reflexes in particular (specifically because it's little more than neural and adrenalin boosts). I don't have any problem with Dermal Plating or Muscle Replacement either, though. Course, I don't see much of a point of bothering with Muscle Replacement since you won't get any benefit out of it whatsoever. Like you said, they're still treated as cyberlimbs, and cyberlimbs specifically state that you only use the limb's rating for Attribute Tests with Body, Strength, and Agility.


But its extremely unlikely you'll ever have the essence to include all of those even if the gm let you. Particularly wired reflexes (especially at its maximum level). Synaptic Booster is much more likely (essence wise) and more understandable implanting wise.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Caelwyn @ Jun 23 2010, 07:15 PM) *
But its extremely unlikely you'll ever have the essence to include all of those even if the gm let you. Particularly wired reflexes (especially at its maximum level). Synaptic Booster is much more likely (essence wise) and more understandable implanting wise.


Actually, you can get a total of up to 30 Points of Augmentation and still have a functional Essence Rating (Above 0 that is)...
THings like Adapsin, DeltaWare, and Biocompaibility, as well as having a Custom Designed Suite (Yes, I know, it is generally Mass Production that provides a Suite bonus (they are generally not Custom Made), but there you go (They CAN be made into a Custom Suite, it is just very expensive to do so on that level))...

HAving put together such a system, it is VERY expensive (8 Millions Nuyen+), but there is still Essence remaining (Essence Modifier for the Suite + Other Factors was .2)... I belive that I am not the only one that has done so either, as I have seen similar packages put together...

Keep the Faith
JesterZero
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 23 2010, 06:23 PM) *
Actually, you can get a total of up to 30 Points of Augmentation and still have a functional Essence Rating (Above 0 that is)...

Ok, the math nerd in me awakes...

Wouldn't that give you 30 points of augmentation on the nose? Even using Shadowrun Developer Math ™ you get Deltaware (.5) + Adapsin (.1) + Biocompatability (.1) + Suite Bonus (.1) = .2

6/.2 = 30

What do you know that I don't? smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (JesterZero @ Jun 23 2010, 07:29 PM) *
Ok, the math nerd in me awakes...

Wouldn't that give you 30 points of augmentation on the nose? Even using Shadowrun Developer Math ™ you get Deltaware (.5) + Adapsin (.1) + Biocompatability (.1) + Suite Bonus (.1) = .2

6/.2 = 30

What do you know that I don't? smile.gif


Sure... it would be 29.9 or thereabouts if you wanted to stay playable (with a 0.1 Remaining), not sure if you could get below .2 Cost, but at that level, who really cares?

Keep the Faith
JesterZero
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 23 2010, 06:51 PM) *
...not sure if you could get below .2 Cost, but at that level, who really cares?

Amen.
Jaid
QUOTE (JesterZero @ Jun 23 2010, 10:29 PM) *
Ok, the math nerd in me awakes...

Wouldn't that give you 30 points of augmentation on the nose? Even using Shadowrun Developer Math ™ you get Deltaware (.5) + Adapsin (.1) + Biocompatability (.1) + Suite Bonus (.1) = .2

6/.2 = 30

What do you know that I don't? smile.gif

whichever category costs less essence costs half as much?
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (JesterZero @ Jun 23 2010, 07:29 PM) *
Ok, the math nerd in me awakes...

Wouldn't that give you 30 points of augmentation on the nose? Even using Shadowrun Developer Math ™ you get Deltaware (.5) + Adapsin (.1) + Biocompatability (.1) + Suite Bonus (.1) = .2

6/.2 = 30

What do you know that I don't? smile.gif


Actually the peak possible is 28.95 due to the need for the adapsin treatment, which leaves you with .05 remaining essence.
HentaiZonga
Well, since we're pretty much forced into house-rule territory anyway, how does this sound:

Hentai's Advanced Cyberware Rules for Shadowrun 4E
Several items which are normally purchasable only as full-body augmentations do not make as much sense when purchased with Cyberlimbs. The presence of one or more cyberlimbs modifies the effects of certain Cyberware as follows:

Reduce the essence cost of all cyberware listed below by 15% per cyber-arm, 20% per cyber-leg, 25% with a cyber-torso and 5% with a cyber-skull. Unless specified, the nuyen cost is unaffected. If the listed cyberware has a capacity cost, this capacity must be placed per limb.

Muscle Augmentation and Bone Lacing: Reduce essence cost, but not nuyen cost. Attribute augmentations do not affect cyberlimb stats.

Dermal Plating: Reduce essence and nuyen costs. Armor rating does not apply to cyberlimbs.

Dermal Sheath: Capacity 1 per limb. Reduce essence cost, but not nuyen cost. Armor rating does not apply to cyberlimbs, but augmentations such as chameleon modification or wet-sheaths do.

Smart Articulation: Capacity 1 per limb. Reduce essence cost, but not nuyen cost. Bonuses apply to all limbs, including cyberlimbs.



Yerameyahu
Just crib the old rules from SR3. smile.gif
Stahlseele
QUOTE
Dermal Plating: Reduce essence and nuyen costs. Armor rating does not apply to cyberlimbs.

aaagh!
no no no no no!
too much hit-locations-hassle . .
Mäx
QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ Jun 26 2010, 08:08 AM) *
Dermal Plating: Reduce essence and nuyen costs. Armor rating does not apply to cyberlimbs.

So Dermal Plating get's better and better implant, the more you have cyberlimbs as you get the same amount of armor for cheaper without any thrawbacks as SR doesn't use hit locations.
So if i have two cyber arms and legs i can get a alphaware dermal plating that gives me a cumulative bonus of 3 to bot armor types for 0,15 essence and 9000 nuyen.gif
if i also had a cyber torso that would be 3 armor for 0 essence and 1500 nuyen.gif love.gif
Yerameyahu
SR3, Man & Machine:
QUOTE
Bone lacing, dermal armor, dermal sheaths, muscle augmentation, muscle replacement, and orthoskin are not compatible with cyberlimbs, though they can be used to enhance the durability of the remaining natural parts of a person's body. If installed in a character with cyberlimbs, reduce cost and Essence cost of these items by 10% per cyberlimb (5% per partial limb) to reflect the fact that some necessary systems have already been implanted.

The more replacment parts a character has, the less bonus he recieves from protective implants, because there is less flesh to protect. As a rule of thumb, characters can recieve two complete cyber replacements and still gain armor and Body bonuses from any of the cyberware listed in this section. For characters with three cyber replacements, subtract 1 from the armor/Body bonuses of each item; for character with four replacements, subtract 2 from the armor/Body bonuses. A character with more than four replacements receives no armor/Body bonus from the cyberware listed in this section. (For purposes of determining how many limbs have been replaced, count one limb and the torso as a single replacement and the skull and a partial limb as a single replacement.)

So, that's 10% (5%) discount per full (partial) limb;
2 limbs = full effect
3 limbs = -1 armor/Body of each item
4 limbs = -2 armor/Body of each item
5+ limbs = no bonuses.

I think these are still good rules, when used by a good GM. 10%/5% is a significant but not overwhelming discount on cost *and* Essnence, and the -1/2/none is similarly a big penalty without instantly destroying all combinations.

Other SR3 compatibility rules:

• Enhanced Articulation: doesn't apply if you're using the Agility of a cyberlimb for a test; EA has no effect at all if you have 2+ full/partial limbs.

• Muscle Aug/Toner: as quoted above.

• Orthoskin: as quoted above.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ Jun 23 2010, 09:30 PM) *
Actually the peak possible is 28.95 due to the need for the adapsin treatment, which leaves you with .05 remaining essence.


Which is a Ton of 'Ware...

Keep the Faith
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