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Yerameyahu
And there are mods in both directions, and it's only for Intimidation. smile.gif
Glyph
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jun 25 2010, 10:28 PM) *
Not really, I think it was to prevent the using of Charisma and Social skills as a dump stats but then abusing the social modifiers. For instance, suppose a cybered troll has a Charisma and Intimidation of 1 and is interrogating someone. If this cap wasn't in place this bumbling, mumbling troll could easily get:

+3 for being physically intimidating
+2 for holding a baseball bat
+2 for having a pal along
+2 for punching the subject in a prior round

A dice pool of 11 yet the troll is socially inept.

I dunno, if that was their intention, then it only makes other characters even more helpless against pornomancer builds, since it would cap their bonuses for ludicrous situations where Joe Average should be able to say "no" to even the smoothest face. All in all, I think the caps solve a nonexistent problem (the pornomancer was purely a dice pool exercise that needed lots of conditional modifiers to be effective) at the expense of creating a lot of illogical situations.
Ol' Scratch
A lot of the limitations like that in 4th Edition exist simply for the sake of existing. They don't actually fix or balance anything worthwhile. This is especially true with most of the character creation limits, like the max points of attributes (who cares if someone wants to waste all their points in just one area of their sheet when they're going to suck elsewhere?), the max number of knowledge skills (one that I never knew about because no GM in the history of the universe has ever thought that was an actual problem, so it's never once came up), and so on and so forth. So a pointless limit on social modifiers that only benefits people cheesing the system anyway isn't really all that surprising.
Yerameyahu
The GM is supposed to always allow that hard 'no' when it's appropriate, regardless of DP.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 26 2010, 09:25 AM) *
(who cares if someone wants to waste all their points in just one area of their sheet when they're going to suck elsewhere?)


I didn't notice that either. Ah well, I never much liked the knowledge and language rules anyway, so at least I'm ignoring things consistently.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (fistandantilus4.0 @ Jun 24 2010, 11:40 AM) *
I'm not as much a fan, because I don't like people doing things like Talisman ("I can only Traceless Walk while wearing my ninja suit!" ) or doing it at night, then using those on powers that you'd likely only use on the infiltration aspect a run.

There was one that I saw that was a really interesting idea, but was still really cheesy.
Adept Centering : Looking Cool in Shades, or Improved Ability - Pistols - Talisman: Sunglasses , etc
Basically your John Woo styled dual pistols gunslinger in sunglasses. The idea in its self was just so novel that I couldn't help but smile though. I just hate seeing a character keystoned off one item that makes or breaks them (and it being sunglasses).


I personally like the one my Ninja uses for his abilities...

He is required to perform a Complext Ritual from 10 Minutes before Dusk to 10 minutes after dusk including expenditures of Incense and Blood (1 Mandatory point of damage) to honor and thank the Kami for their gift of Power (He is a Shinto Kannushi Adpet). If he misses the ritual, Geas is broken and the Kami withhold their blessings. I have actually missed it a time or two; fortunately, I am fairly competent without my abilities...

Keep the Faith
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 26 2010, 11:45 AM) *
I personally like the one my Ninja uses for his abilities...

He is required to perform a Complext Ritual from 10 Minutes before Dusk to 10 minutes after dusk including expenditures of Incense and Blood (1 Mandatory point of damage) to honor and thank the Kami for their gift of Power (He is a Shinto Kannushi Adpet). If he misses the ritual, Geas is broken and the Kami withhold their blessings. I have actually missed it a time or two; fortunately, I am fairly competent without my abilities...

Keep the Faith


They remind me too much of the battlesuit characters in a Champions/Hero game. You take Obvious, inaccessible focus on half your stats and all you powers saving like 25% cost on everything. Now most of the time it just isn't limiting you and you are basically getting free points. Then every once in a while the GM has to come up with a part in the story where it does effect you so it is worth points. And during that time all too many characters are not like your and just suck so its fun for no one. I just don't like things that are usually not a limit but they sometimes hit you when the GM remembers to deal with it. Since it really isn't a limit since the vast majority of time you get to use the powers why does it exist in this form, its just a free 25% discount. It should be a flaw in the qualities section not a limit on the powers if people want the flavor for it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jun 26 2010, 09:58 AM) *
They remind me too much of the battlesuit characters in a Champions/Hero game. You take Obvious, inaccessible focus on half your stats and all you powers saving like 25% cost on everything. Now most of the time it just isn't limiting you and you are basically getting free points. Then every once in a while the GM has to come up with a part in the story where it does effect you so it is worth points. And during that time all too many characters are not like your and just suck so its fun for no one. I just don't like things that are usually not a limit but they sometimes hit you when the GM remembers to deal with it. Since it really isn't a limit since the vast majority of time you get to use the powers why does it exist in this form, its just a free 25% discount. It should be a flaw in the qualities section not a limit on the powers if people want the flavor for it.


Each and everyone has their own opinions on what they claim is fair... I personally think that the Limit I described above is limiting, becuase I personally make it so... I could indeed ignore the whole thing until my GM made a point of it; but rather than that, I make it a part of my character and his flavor. I penalize myself so my GM does not have to do so in my stead... If I miss the ritual, so be it, and I lose those abilities until the next night fall. It is a limit because I make it so... We have had 4 -5 Sessions so far, and I have been impeded in at least two of them...

Keep the Faith
sn0mm1s
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 26 2010, 05:37 AM) *
I dunno, if that was their intention, then it only makes other characters even more helpless against pornomancer builds, since it would cap their bonuses for ludicrous situations where Joe Average should be able to say "no" to even the smoothest face. All in all, I think the caps solve a nonexistent problem (the pornomancer was purely a dice pool exercise that needed lots of conditional modifiers to be effective) at the expense of creating a lot of illogical situations.


Well, most characters are helpless against specialist builds.

Assuming the target character isn't acting first.
Most characters will never see a specialist infiltrator.
Most characters will die to a specialist mage.
Most characters will die to a specialist sniper.
Most characters will believe a specialist face.
Most characters will die to a specialist melee character.

The pornomancer was lame as far as the modifiers (and later errata toned it down as well) but I have made a Commanding Voice Adept that had a starting dice pool of 25 - with no social modifiers one way or the other.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 26 2010, 12:28 PM) *
Each and everyone has their own opinions on what they claim is fair... I personally think that the Limit I described above is limiting, becuase I personally make it so... I could indeed ignore the whole thing until my GM made a point of it; but rather than that, I make it a part of my character and his flavor. I penalize myself so my GM does not have to do so in my stead... If I miss the ritual, so be it, and I lose those abilities until the next night fall. It is a limit because I make it so... We have had 4 -5 Sessions so far, and I have been impeded in at least two of them...

Keep the Faith



Yours is in many ways a bigger limit than what many people have. Things like what you wear especially when it is a concealable item are so rarely limiting I don't see them as limits, unless the GM goes out of his way to make it so. a lot of the times it works out to be I lose my powers when captured and when I would have lost the freedom to use my powers anyways. I probably should have picked someone else to quote, but your was the last in the chain. The thing is 25% off is about what I think many of the powers should cost anyways so I'm normally willing to give this as a freebie.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jun 26 2010, 10:42 AM) *
Yours is in many ways a bigger limit than what many people have. Things like what you wear especially when it is a concealable item are so rarely limiting I don't see them as limits, unless the GM goes out of his way to make it so. a lot of the times it works out to be I lose my powers when captured and when I would have lost the freedom to use my powers anyways. I probably should have picked someone else to quote, but your was the last in the chain. The thing is 25% off is about what I think many of the powers should cost anyways so I'm normally willing to give this as a freebie.


I can definitly agree that some examples of a Power Geas for Adept powers needs some attention by the GM. The GM can say "No, try again", and should (in my opinion) if the power is limited because you must be wearing a cool pair of Raybans. But that takes work on both sides of the screen. If I let something in like that without actually looking at it, then I deserve what I get. GM's have as much responsibility for the character creation process as the player does..

As for the Costs of Adept Powers... I generally do not have any real problems with the cost... some things are pretty cheap, and some things are a little overcosted in comparrison to 'Ware... I think that is a good thing actually, as it forces choices... Do I take the 2 Levels of Synaptic Acceleration? Or do I stay pure and fork out the 2.5 points for the Improved Reflexes 2 power? neither is wrong, and it creates 2 very different characters in teh end... One is willing to compromise his magical integrity, while the other is not...

Keep the Faith
Yerameyahu
I like the Ray-ban geas, specifically, but I think we all know geasa in general have to be legit. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 26 2010, 11:02 AM) *
I like the Ray-ban geas, specifically, but I think we all know geasa in general have to be legit. smile.gif


Geasa appeal to people differently... wobble.gif
In previous editions, Talismans required three distinct and identifiable traits that tended to make the Talisman something unique. So the Raybans had to be unique among the group of Raybans. This was to limit the sillyness of just having them break and going out and getting another pair of the rack. AFB currently, but it should still be that way in my opinion...

Keep the Faith
Yerameyahu
Well, obviously it's a specific pair of Ray-bans.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 26 2010, 11:19 AM) *
Well, obviously it's a specific pair of Ray-bans.


Of which, when they become broken, lost, or stolen, his powers will no longer function at all, which is the risk of having a Talisman Geas rather than some other, like a Time Geas or an Action Geas. Which is why I really discourage such Geasa unless teh player absolutely demands such. That being the case, though, if he at some point in the future loses or has his Talisman stolen or destroyed, I do not expect him to come back and whine to me because of it. An informed Choice is binding for me at that point.

I do believe that you can re-aspect your Talisman Geas in that instance (I know you could do so in previous editions with some effort), but it would not be an easy endeavor in my opinion, as you have lost the one crutch that let you actually practice your magic. Without that crutch, you have no basis (of magic) to stand on any longer in my opinion.

Keep the Faith
Yerameyahu
Right. That's how the rule works. It's supposed to be a dangerous trade-off. You can always replace a Talisman, it's just a pain. Also, you don't have to bind up *all* your Magic in the geasa, right? So you're choosing to gamble bigger and bigger, but you're *choosing*. smile.gif

Honestly, 'pray to the sunset' is the easiest kind. biggrin.gif
Nifft
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 26 2010, 01:08 PM) *
In previous editions, Talismans required three distinct and identifiable traits that tended to make the Talisman something unique. So the Raybans had to be unique among the group of Raybans. This was to limit the sillyness of just having them break and going out and getting another pair of the rack.

So: prescription Ray-Bans.
Yerameyahu
Haha! Anyway, the point is that there's absolutely zero abuse unless the GM causes it.
Ol' Scratch
No, I'm pretty sure that I recall reading something about truly unique talismans (such as a lock of your cremated wife's hair) that cannot be replaced. You have to track them down instead. For some reason they don't have any additional benefit, so naturally few people choose that option and instead just go with three simple and common descriptors for the talisman.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 26 2010, 11:31 AM) *
Right. That's how the rule works. It's supposed to be a dangerous trade-off. You can always replace a Talisman, it's just a pain. Also, you don't have to bind up *all* your Magic in the geasa, right? So you're choosing to gamble bigger and bigger, but you're *choosing*. smile.gif

Honestly, 'pray to the sunset' is the easiest kind. biggrin.gif


Actually, it is harder that you might think when you have a very specific location that you have to be in, and a very specific time, alonmg with very specific actions that are required while you are perfroming your ritual. As I said before, I have missed it, and had to suffer the loss of powers for 24 hours. It happens, and I deal with it so my GM does not have to do so. wobble.gif

And no, you do not have to bind up all of your powers with a Geas (or multiple geasa). That is very true indeed.

As I said earlier, the line where Talisman works varies greatly among tables. smile.gif

Keep the Faith
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Damn Multiple Posts
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Double Damn Multiple Posts...
Yerameyahu
Well, all those 'very specifics' are up to you and the GM, of course. smile.gif It's very possible you're handicapping yourself extra. wink.gif
Critias
Just because I feel I should clarify something, here. I played in the same campaign as the Ray-Ban guy, for games lasting us well into the two-to-three-hundred karma region (IE, a long time).

His specific talisman-item sunglasses had been the first thing he purchased (in backstory) in his attempts to look appropriately well-off as a made man, with his first money from doing a job for his local Don. They were a specific set, and by the end of the campaign they'd sucked up a lot of his money. He'd dikoted the lenses just to be a money sink (and to keep them from scratching up), in later games he swapped the lucky old lenses over into an orichalcum-laced frame and bought them as a Centering Focus (that cost a buttload of money), that sort of thing. They weren't just a throwaway pair of sunglasses that he had to occasionally wear. They were his lucky shades, and had been his characters "trademark" from his earliest days as a mafia hitman, before entering the solo life of a Shadowrunner. He still went by "Shades" with all his mob connections, and they'd been central to the character for a while.

There were also situations where "Look Cool In Shades" wasn't possible, like when he -- and this happened a lot, and continues to be a running gag -- flubbed a combat roll and the bad guy did well, so he got knocked to Serious damage in a single attack from some no-name mook that he should've walked all over. To be clear on this, he got routinely kicked in the stomach so hard ribs broke, from guys that had no right to be kicking anyone in the stomach that hard, just because his dice hated him. He had to be looking cool to get the Geas; doing well in combat, dressed to the nines outside of combat, that sort of thing. The way he'd worded it left it very open to the GM to sometimes say "Sorry, not looking cool," and he was always a good sport about that. In addition to that, there were times we GMs gave him perception modifiers, required he activate Adept senses to see indoors, or gave him social mods for wearing sunglasses at inappropriate times.

They were a pretty integral part of his character, linked solidly to his backstory, with a heavy emotional and financial investment in-game...and they cost him some penalties here and there aside from the "all or nothing" level of having his talisman. They worked, in other words, and did so a lot better than it sounds at first blush. As a guy that plays a lot of Champions, too, I can safely say they complicated the character's life and earned him his Geasa points, a whole lot more often than the average OIF (or even OAF) gear-based superhero.

Just for the record.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 26 2010, 11:40 AM) *
Well, all those 'very specifics' are up to you and the GM, of course. smile.gif It's very possible you're handicapping yourself extra. wink.gif


Again with the Handicapping (Gimping by another name), though I know that you are not the worst offender for that...

The Limits upon my character's magical abilities are not a handicap... They are a limit that have been placed upon a character for more depth. They are something that I chose to do, and the character does not see them as anything but positive... AND, it makes the character stand out from the many cookie cutter Ninja Adepts that are out there... Who are you going to remember first... the faceless, cookie cutter Ninja with the same old powers, or the one Ninja that had something unique and interesting about his relationship with the forces that powered his abilities? Abilities that may be cast in a somewhat unique POV because of that relationship.

I, for one, prefer the latter to the former.

Keep the Faith
Yerameyahu
Handicap *means* 'limit', 'chosen', etc. in this context. Handicaps are exactly what geasa are, and the more limiting, the more they're handicaps. Don't get all sensitive. smile.gif My example was 'pray to sunset', not your personal thing. If, to you, 'depth' means handicaps, that's 100% fine. My comments refer only to the suggested geasa in the rules; going beyond what the rules suggest isn't a problem, but neither is it better. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 26 2010, 11:54 AM) *
Handicap *means* 'limit', 'chosen', etc. in this context. Handicaps are exactly what geasa are, and the more limiting, the more they're handicaps. Don't get all sensitive. smile.gif My example was 'pray to sunset', not your personal thing. If, to you, 'depth' means handicaps, that's 100% fine. My comments refer only to the suggested geasa in the rules; going beyond what the rules suggest isn't a problem, but neither is it better. smile.gif


Indeed it does, but many here on dumpshock use that to mean Gimped... which does indeed annoy me. Sorry for the Sensitivity... smile.gif

And no, going beyond the standard is neither better nor worse... I can agree with that. wobble.gif

Keep the Faith
Whipstitch
All of this talk of highly specific geasa reminds me of one of the more fun characters I ever had: a latent Awakening melee PhysAd who I didn't get to control the development of. Instead, the GM just kept giving me powers for free but they were all highly situational and/or useless, often to the point that they'd never be seen again. For example, I had Pain Resistance, Counterattack 4 and Elemental Strike (Light) for a while, but only after my PC nearly died in a fight to a guy who kept ordering me to call him the master. I miss that GM sometimes.
toturi
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 27 2010, 02:47 AM) *
Who are you going to remember first... the faceless, cookie cutter Ninja with the same old powers, or the one Ninja that had something unique and interesting about his relationship with the forces that powered his abilities? Abilities that may be cast in a somewhat unique POV because of that relationship.

I, for one, prefer the latter to the former.

Keep the Faith

I prefer the latter to the former. I try to stay true to the concept both IC and OOC. A ninja is not supposed to be remembered. If having cookie cutter powers means he gets remembered less even OOC, I'd go for that concept first.
DrZaius
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Jun 26 2010, 05:19 PM) *
All of this talk of highly specific geasa reminds me of one of the more fun characters I ever had: a latent Awakening melee PhysAd who I didn't get to control the development of. Instead, the GM just kept giving me powers for free but they were all highly situational and/or useless, often to the point that they'd never be seen again. For example, I had Pain Resistance, Counterattack 4 and Elemental Strike (Light) for a while, but only after my PC nearly died in a fight to a guy who kept ordering me to call him the master. I miss that GM sometimes.


Sho'nuff!
Whipstitch
That GM really only did one shots though, for the most part. Busy guy, seemed to like introducing people to games more than building worlds. Fun stuff though.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 26 2010, 05:37 PM) *
I prefer the latter to the former. I try to stay true to the concept both IC and OOC. A ninja is not supposed to be remembered. If having cookie cutter powers means he gets remembered less even OOC, I'd go for that concept first.


I was not referring to being remembered in game by those whom he works against, but by those who actually play with the player... I have seen a LOT of cookie Cutter Ninja Adepts in my time, and they were all pretty much the same type of character... My point is that as a Player I would rather see a character that stood out from the pack than just another copy of what has come before, both in design and play...

Keep the Faith
Yerameyahu
Haha. Stay true to a concept OOC? biggrin.gif Srs bizness!
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 26 2010, 10:03 PM) *
Haha. Stay true to a concept OOC? biggrin.gif Srs bizness!


Indeed...

Keep the Faith
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