By making clever use of chameleon cloaks and projectors, can using [Perception] as a knowledge skill allow you to screw with the depth perception of the enemy enough to qualify as a cover bonus in addition to the -4 they get for the chameleon cloak?

I don't understand exactly what you're doing here. Do you mean holographic projectors?

I thought the whole point of knowledge skills was that they were not allowed to translate into any sort of active bonus, as that is the purview of the Active skills. If it were possible to do what you are implying, everyone would do it for free defense.

I would say "no" because the cover bonus is some object between you and a gun that's absorbing lead. A virtual hologram doesn't absorb lead.

Yes, I do mean holographic projectors. They force a [INT+Perception](2) test to tell that they are not real. The reason I argue for a cover bonus is because of how the brain works. Let me try for an example:

$_imon is wearing a chameleon cloak and has three holographic projectors. He is sneaking up on a Firewatch team, and knows that the -4 dpm his gear applies to the Firewatch team's [Perception] check won't cut it. He gets LOS on the combat heavy and projects a carefully selected and ranged triplet of images of himself to the heavy. One of the projections is very small and moving slowly, giving the impression that it is far away. One of the projections is slightly larger than he would normally appear to be at his distance from the heavy, and moving quickly, giving the impression that it is much closer to the heavy than $_imon actually is. The last projector gives all three images of $_imon a glitchy look, only showing slices of them at any given point in time, and slightly to the side of where the other images actually are.

The point of this is to confuse the unconscious perceptions of the heavy, so even if he pulls a bead on the correct $_imon, his brain won't let him line up the shot correctly since it doesn't know what range to fire at. The better a shot the heavy is, the less likely he is to actually hit $_imon with any of his shots because he is unable to not aim at the wrong place.

Optical illusions are neat, and make the brain do dumb things.

From my experience, depth perception is irrelevant for ranged combat. So, no.

This is a use of Disguise and/or Stealth Group skills.

What it does mechanically is simply a -4 dpm on the attacker which that equipment does anyway last I checked.

...I am aware that the Chameleon cloak gives a -4 Perception Test modifier to the system attempting to detect the wearer.

Here are a bunch of pages on Optical Illusions that might give you some idea of what I'm trying so incompetently to say:

Subjective Objectivity
Pi Motion
Ponzo Illusion
Depth Illusion
Necker Cube Illusion
Edge Enhancement Illusion
Blind Spot
Organization as Primary Characteristic of Perception
Hermann Grid Illusion
Adding Depth to Illusions

Chameleon cloaks just bend light around the wearer, an active optical illusion system would give the person shooting at you a false visual gestalt that simply screws up targeting. Consider it a type of Basilisk Hack.

I see what you're getting at, real brain hacking. Subverting the way they expect a situation to be handled and use their own perception against them.

I could see it giving you a bonus, but I don't know about cover; and if that only for the first pass. If a player at my table tried this I would definitely give them a initiative bonus and a surprise round to use it in.

I'd probably award an initiative bonus or a surprise round as the victim tried to sort out what was going on. I can't remember where I read this, but I distinctly remember one source-book or another stating that no matter how advanced holograms look, they are still obviously holograms and not real. And, like others have said, holograms don't stop bullets. It's a really interesting idea, though.

That's all covered by the abstraction of the base rules being used. It's just a matter of describing it however you want.

What you're basically asking for is Complimentary Skills, which would apply in any number of different situations with various skills and abilities. For example, using the Ballistics knowledge skill to augment your use of Firearms. There used to be rules for that in previous editions, but they don't exist in 4th Edition simply because they were just unnecessary power creepage. No matter what idea you can think of to use a Complimentary Skill, there's almost always a counter option available. Thus your +X to attack is neutralized by their +Y to defend... but only if they bother to waste the energy to think of a counter or choose to use one at all, because of how stupidly munchkiny it is.

In other words, no. You shouldn't be allowed to bullshit your way into getting bonus situational dice.

I imagine a clever program could force the Perception check a few times. For instance, using a projector and a Chameleon Cloak to make an image of yourself that is shifted to the right or left by 1/2 of your body, so your right side appears on your left side, and your left side is a step to your left. Shift this one around a few times at various angles, and then have your body and image bolt in opposite directions.

There we go. Even so, it would take a real botch not to make that perception check. I would still rule that the whole hologram thing would essentially be a time-buyer/confusion technique rather than actual cover.

I wonder what it would do to make the chameleon suit display an image of you? I'm guessing form the description that the images on the suit and the projectors are not perfect. But if they are similar enough you now have a three dimensional image of yourself, that just happens to have you inside of it, surrounded by more images of yourself.

At this point, what you're trying to do is sounding more and more like an Active Skill than a Knowledge Skill, anyway.

If you have holographic images around you, you are no longer reaping the full benefits of being cloaked. It seems like a viable option, but I would not think that it would stack with the chameleon cloak.

A further use of the [Psychology] Active Skill with the [Perception] Knowledge skill for background information? Would that be a [LOG] or [INT] linked use, do you think?

I'd think [LOG]. It's booksmarts. And I can see that working out. But, as DamienKnight said, I'm not sure this would stack with being cloaked.

Now hold on. Chameleon cloaks bending light around the user? Basilisk Hacks? That's Eclipse Phase. In SR the Chameleon Suit displays an image of the opposite side of the wearer. Bending light is done by Improved Invisibility.


Also, Psychology is an Active Skill?

Eh, some GMs allow things like Chemistry as an active skill, which is essentially anything non-academic you could do with Chemistry.

But Chemistry an actual listed active skill.

That also works.

Yes, [Psychology] is an active skill. Dice pool is [INT+Psychology]



You are correct, it is a chameleon suit, not cloak. And you are also correct on it being a digital image, not a bending of light. Although, if fiberoptics are being used, then the semantic difference is meaningless.



You were correct on 2/2 points. Congratulations; ten points for Gryffindor.

i would give you a bonus as long as you take an action to activate your holograms. i think it was 3rd edition where the camouflage suit gave you a bonus to your dodging because the patterns break up your outline and make you harder to track. this sounds somewhat similar to that, and i don't think it would unbalance things any since you'll be sacrificing your first, and usually most crucial, initiative pass.

edit: of course, using both the projectors and the chameleon suit would nullify the stealth bonus you get from the suit, since three of you is a lot easier to see than one of you.

And if you let some music imaging software to go with some blaring techno, you can give your opponents synesthesia.



I agree that you would not be using [Infiltration] in this scenario, you can use the imperfect quality of the images to your advantage. As you move rapidly, the sensors on the chameleon suit will not be able to keep up and the image will start to tear. The holographic projectors either act the same way, or they can be programed to behave that way. The chameleon suit static helps break up your silhouette while not giving the opponents senses any depth to latch on to to properly organize the visual input it's getting. Perhaps you could make a [LOG+Palming] check? Sleight-of-hand tricks always use the most optical illusions.

i would make it a logic + computers tests to program the hologram projectors to project the images a certain way, with optical illusions as a complementary skill. you'll probably want to apply a flat bonus should such a test succeed rather than a variable bonus based on the result of the test in order to keep it from getting too out of control.

all in all, i think this is a pretty cool and clever tactic for a character, but one he should only employ infrequently - no one else is gonna be pulling a stunt like this, so if you do it all the time, it'll make you much easier to identify and track.

All in the name of Notoriety, neh?

No, it does not (otherwise, wearing one would leave you blind). Cameleon cloak colour-changes to adapt you to your surroundings.

If I had two characters trying to use Chemistry Active Skill and Chemistry Knowledge Skill, I'd argue that the knowledge skill could identify chemicals, while the active skill involves the safe and accurate manipulation of chemicals. It's one thing to know that combining one part of A with two parts of B over a 120°C flame will bring results, but it's another thing to actually do that without stuffing up.

So in the case of the holo-projectors, I'd say that a knowledge skill isn't sufficient to perform the actual visual manipulations. Computer + Intuition would make more sense to me.

How does that logic apply to other purely cerebral skills like Software or Etiquette?

As needed. Basically, Active Skills are the only things that ever let you 'do' things: program software, or make social Tests.

Knowledge skill versions of each of those would let you, oh, recognize the manufacturer of a program by its style alone, or (maybe?) realize these men are Yakuza by their body language. I'll admit, it gets a little iffy there.

I don't see how it wouldn't. Care to clarify?

The use of Chemistry as an active skill is an optional rule IIRC. As every thing it dose is doable with it as a knowlegde skill its just "slightly" unblanceing to get the ability to trun out large abouts of K-10 and such for next to no BP/karma.

I tend to rule any Active Skill contains its knowledge skill. Other wise you get silly skill creep also the insane max amount of knowledge skills rule might actually come in to play if you needed both.

Actually, In SR4A, Chemistry is an Active Skill... and not optional any longer...

Keep the Faith

There are no limits to the number of Knowledge Skill sthat you may have except for Character Creation (No more than Double the Points you started with)... after that, you may have as many Knowledge Skills/Languages as you like...

Keep the Faith

What he meant was that suddenly you have to take the Pistols active skill and the Pistols knowledge skill in order to both use and talk about hand-held ballistic weaponry.

I consider Active Skills to include a knowledge skill counterpart, for the most part. It's all a matter of game balance, imho. I wouldn't want my players buying eleventy billion knowledge skills in order to pull shenanigans for cheap amounts of karma.

No, if you actually look at what he said he is referencing (and I again Quote):



Which only exists for Character Creation (2x starting Knowledge skill points at Creation)...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

Ah, I see what you're each saying. I didn't mean that the Active Skill *didn't* contain the Knowledge. I meant that the Knowledge didn't contain the Active.

Indeed.... No problems Yerameyahu...

Keep the Faith

Nah, thats what the fire-arms or even weapons knowledge skill is for.