The rule reads: "Effects depend on the drug payload, but to successfully deliver the payload and penetrate armor, the attacker needs two net hits on the Ranged Combat Opposed Test."

The AP for both the Parashield Dart Pistol and Rifle is -2, as is the damage for both "As Drug/Toxin".

Lastly, for this example, let us select Narcojet, with a power 10 and penetration of 0.


So, my attack scores 4 hits with the Parashield Rifle. My target would get to react (Reaction) or dodge (Reaction + Dodge) to reduce my hit to 1 or less to negate my attack. If my attack retains 2 or more hits, would my target would then get to resist damage, as they would with a normal attack? This assumes that damage of the attack, when listed "As Drug/Toxin", is the same as the power, in this case Narcojet. I have to assume since the rules never flatly state that damage and power are synonymous, but I am of the opinion that this is a safe assumption.

So, does my target now resist the 10 power and net hits of my attack with Body and Impact Armour Rating? Do they receive any bonuses from toxin resistance for this test, or is there a follow up Toxin Resistance test if the damage isn't reduced to nothing? If there is a follow up test, is the power of the toxin the original amount, 10 for Narcojet, or is the power value equal to the remaining damage from the damage test previously?

Since the injection dart has no inherent damage value, and the book never states that damage and power are the same; I have to assume the system required to resolve the action. Is there printed errata? Is there previous intent? Can you help, please?

I believe you then apply the toxin as it had been injected. So use rolling body+toxin resistance. However I wouldn't count me on that I've never used them.

Alright, Gamer, How would you resolve the weapon's AP of -2?

Please, I am asking for suggestion, not a reprinting of the rules. I understand what you have posted, but it doesn't answer my question.

Thank you Dumori, but does the Power reset or is it reduced from the damage resistance test? In you responce, was there a damage resistance test at all?

Alright.....I see the answer now, sorry Gamer.

No no damage resitance test this dose may the AP pointless unless it apples to the toxin resistance test though.

Sorry I forgot the commentary with the re-post of rules. Best as I can tell, the -2 AP on the Parashield weapons is pointless and doesn't enter into the equation. If you succeed on your Ranged Attack test with 2 net hits, the victim them must resist the drug's power rating as if it were DV, using Body + any toxin resistance gear rating. Each hit reduces the power of the drug by one. If the power is reduced to zero, the drug has no effect. As best as I can tell, this includes any secondary effects like disorientation, nausea, or blindness.

Could the -AP apply to toxin protection from armor? Ie its a way to reduce the effectiveness from the toxin protection.

I almost feel like you should roll armor; doesn't that make sense? If I shoot someone with a dart gun, it's got to get through their armor jacket before the poison hits them. Unless you're negating armor by calling your shot. So that's what I think the "-2 AP" for the Dart Rifle is for. I don't have my book at the moment, so I could be way off on this.

-DrZaius

Yeah... Impact Minus 2 makes a lot of sense to me... Of course, if it was me, I would just use a called shot to negate the armor all together...

Keep the Faith

So in game terms, you'd roll reaction (to avoid the dart hitting you), Impact armor -2 (to see if the dart got through your armor), then Body + Toxin Resist to resist the poisons effects. That's how I'd call it.

-DrZaius

Better playtest it a little.

Seems Logical, But Yerameyahu is correct, this might need playtesting...
Of course, if you are shooting someone who does not know you are there, then Reaction is right out, and all you have to do is either avoid armor, or see if it penetrates.

Keep the Faith

I never even knew about 'must have 2 net hits'. I always thought it was 'must do 1 box of damage after soak'. I see now that I think about it (because I never have) that that doesn't really make any sense.

How ever as it dose no damage. Any armour will stop the dart.

Whcih is why it pays to avoid the Armor, or know that the target is wearing armor that only provides 2 points of impact value (which the dart will penetrate easily with the -2 AP) as the dart will ignore it completely.

The other option is to treat it as a weapon that does 0p damage that stages with Normal Net Successes and has an AP -2, and then resist the damage normally... if at least 1 physical point gets through, the toxin is delivered.

Keep the Faith

Well, if you're going that route, 0P isn't fair. 1P at the very least (literally), and probably more for a rifle dart.

Why? Rifle Darts do not cause any level of real damage to the targets they are intended to affect. It is like getting stung by a bee or wasp. It may Hurt, but no damage is really inflicted (unless you are allergic, of course). They are generally a device for intramuscular delivery of a toxin.

Keep the Faith

Because, no one is going to get 14 net hits with their dart rifle! It's that, or change the -2 AP.

The problem with that is if you don't do enough damage, then the armor makes the damage Stun.

Which is really okay in my opinion... After looking at it, Any damage should impart the Toxin... I can pretty much guarantee you that when you get a Flu Shot you are not taking any Physical Damage (or Stun damage for that matter) at all... a small sting and you are done.

Same Principle here...

Keep the Faith

Well, as I said, I *don't* think the 'must do at least 1 damage' rule is correct or good.

How about give the dart a damage code, add in the net hits, and if it is greater than 1/2 impact armor after AP modifier then the dart deliver's the toxin. Go directly to Toxin Resistance Test.

This way there isn't an extra roll.

But it does work... if a little wonky...
Personally, if you just use what is in the book, all you need is 2 Net hits to deliver the toxin... Move directly to Toxin Resistance... Do not pass Go, and do Not Collect 200 AS the Dart will, at that point, bypass any of the Armor, an Armor based Toxin Resistance will no longer apply (Dart penetrated the Armor and is embedded in Skin)

Keep the Faith

I think we're looking at why it doesn't really work. Against basically any target, you need 6 net hits? Better off calling the shot to bypass armor.

Nope... Against any Target, you only need 2 Net Hits... that is what the rule states.

Keep the Faith

… You're messing with me, right? We're discussing two wholly different rules: (1) Need 2 Net Hits, (2) Need At Least 1 Damage. We've *been* having this conversation. You were there!

I was and am...

1. I stand by the Need 2 Hits Ruling... 2 Net Hits and the Toxin is delivered...

2. The "Need at least 1 Damage" is a mechanic for those that dislike the 2 Net Hit Rule, and is nothing more than a Houserule at best (and one that I really do not like all that much, especially since the concept of a Dart causing Damage is ludicrouse to me)... But I did suggest it as a alternative/compromise to the 2 Net Hit Rule that is in the Rules.

Keep the Faith

But I just specifically stated that the 'Need 1 Damage' house rule, which I *introduced* as wrong, is no good. Why are you disagreeing?
See? You're crazy. My whole point was that, no, it doesn't work, it's SUPER wonky.

Yet there are tables that use it... which is why it works, though a little wonky...

We, however, use the rules in the book (2 net Hits)...

Both are viable, though one is a little wonky (or in your words, Super Wonky)
We are obviously in agreement... I think...

Keep the Faith

Right, except it's definitely SUPER wonky. You'd need a crazy number of net hits, and isn't that also an Exotic weapon? So you wouldn't even have the skill ranks needed. Yuck!

Back to the real issue: if 2 net hits is too 'easy' for injection darts, just make it 3 net hits. That's a nice 3-4 dice pool difference, if your players are 'cheating' and drugging all the Red Sams.

Indeed... a simple fix, if it gets out of hand... Though I have yet to see it in any game I have played in...

Keep the Faith

The AP makes me think they had another rule in mind for how this worked and then changed it at the last second. Or the rules are missing a sentence, like must make a called shot to remove remaining impact armor.

That would not be that bad IMO. Lets say you have an impact armor or 6-2=4 so a called shot of -4 dice and you need 2 net hits. Easy peasy to do from an ambush which is how dart guns should mainly be used IMO, but crack shots can still do it in a fight regularly.

Or 1/2 Impact armor minus AP net hits, so armor does something.

That might be much much compensation: typical Impact armor of 8 or 6 quickly becomes 2 or 1 net hits (already less than the '2 net hits' rule).

The implanted dartgun from augmentation has the rule of "at least 1P damage for the toxin to take effect". But those darts have a base damage of 3P.

Mentioned it just to compare.

Also do not forget that Mil-Spec armor is immun to dart attacks.

Maybe that's where I got it in my head, thanks! Hmm, it still seems tough to get that dart into the typical target, though, and with an Exotic, right?

Whilst I like the dart gun for fluff reasons I find DMSO and Slab fired from a normal gun (which isnt a exotic weapon skill) far more useful although it is far more expensive

Slab REALLY needs a published onset time. If Slab took 5min to take effect it wouldn't be nearly so broken.

It should at least be at the end of the Initiative Pass. There is no reason medical drugs could be faster than any combat toxins.

The book states that drugs always take effect at the end of a combat turn, not an IP.



As for the non-combat drugs like Slab, I'd say it's up to the GM based on the description in the book. Personally, I'd rule Slab would take about 5 minutes for a full effect, similar to current anesthetics used for surgery.

My bad, I got the terms confused. But well, you get the idea

I am a big fan of of DMSO/Narcojet myself... Pretty expensive though...
Or DMSO/Shade to send the Target to the Astral where your Mage and his spirit buddies are waiting for him... WAY to expensive though...

Keep the Faith

The slab idea is for a bounty hunter concept I'm toying with, If they absolutly have to be turned in alive then pop some slab into them from a distance and follow them down while the drug takes effect. Also will help out on extractions and such although a 180 a shot is pricy and to justify him being able to make the rounds himself the costs of taking some chemisty and a drug dealer as a contact made it a more expensive part of the build then I first thought but does seem viable as a tactic for anyone not wearing a full chem suit

I would comment on the time it takes to effect you by refering to one of the bits of fluff (as I cannot see the rule on the actual time)



My interpratation of this is its a very fast working drug even in inhalation form. If shot effectivle straight in the bloodstream I would have thought it would be the same if not faster.

I think it makes more sense for Slab to work slow-ish.

Why?

Are you comparing it to current anastetics?

A R10 Tranq patch will put someone unconcious in as fast as it take to tell them they have been patched, by this I mean there is no rule saying it takes any length of time to do why would slab be any different?

Given the medical technology is it really that much of a jump to believe that a drug like slab can be absorbed and react in about three seconds?

Gamma Scopolamine is a immediate working toxin which has a similar main effect (paralasis) can slab be that much different?

Pointing out that there's a problem with tranq patches isn't an argument that there's no problem with Slab.

As I said, it makes more sense to me for Slab to not be instant. It doesn't need to be, and it creates the many-times-repeated game balance issues.

Gamma is different. Why not? (14F, by the way.) Rule whatever you want at your game.

I have a question about the Injection dats and 2 net hits.

If I have a Troll:

1 natural armor
FullBody Suit
Chameleon Suit
Orthoskin
PPP system
Gel packs

2 net hits? and i get injected with a dart through /all/ that armor?
How does the stuff even get into my skin.
Doesn't it need to 'puncture' through my armor/skin/boneplating?

IIRC the old narcojet pistol (SR2) required the attacker to achieve a number of hits > the impact armor of the target. That may be a plausible solution.

IE you need to get a number o net hits equal to the impact armor of the target (modified by the AP). I don't see heavily armored characters being suceptible to this all that often--and this solves it.

RAW in this case seems incomplete/goofy.

That's essentially just doing a Called Shot to bypass armor. The number of hits required is *pretty* high, as we said earlier in the thread; probably too high? If you want armor to be a very effective protection against darts in your game, then this would certainly be a way to do it.

The blowgun in arsenal requires a called shot to bypass armor to be effective.
Granted that is powered solely by your breath and not more powerful means of propulsion like what the dart rifle uses.

You guys may be over thinking this.