So, How about a magician character that shapechanges into a great cat, and has conjured a possession spirit to possess themself?

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any rules or mechanics that this would violate. It's kind of twinkerifick. Also neat to RP.

I believe this thing would have no attribute caps.

The only real question I have about it is which skills would you get? for example, as a great cat, you would receive infiltration. The possessing spirit may not have that skill. So do you get the skills from: the cat? the spirit? yourself? all?

other important question: on the stats for a great cat it lists the damage for its unarmed attack as 5p. It doesn't mention str or anything. I'm wondering if that was for expediency. Surely its str/2 + claw/bite DV. But, this character might be capped at 5p damage.

Thoughts?

Interesting but I can see some form of orbital bovine launcher being used on the player. Also I'm not sure if a mage can sustain a spell on themselves whilse being possesed.

I am not aware of any rules that would forbid it. Even then, there would still be sustaining foci...

I've made several edits above the raise questions and issues.

ok further thoughts based on your edits,


Skills - You keep your own and dont get any extra ones from the spell. If you dont have infiltration you dont get it just because a real cat has (it had to learn it like all other animals), But as per the spell you do get the enhanced senses and any natural weapons

Attribute caps - Nope seems like their wouldnt be as the limiting factor will be sustaining plus the drain

Unarmed Damage - It would make sense to recalculate the damage based on the upped stats in my mind.


I'm still not down with the whole cast it to boost yourself then get possesed too. It seems so very very silly.

Once a body is possessed, the character is not in control, but instead the spirit is. Since the spirit is a different entity, they will have different motivations and tactics. If a player at my tables tries to use possession just to buff themselves then I will simply start taking control of the character any time its possessed.

Here is some food for thought: When you summon a spirit, if you pass out there is a chance it might attack you. Why would this potential level of animosity change just because the summoner had the spirit possess them? My take on it, to be honest, is that if a spirit possesses a summoner, you should treat the spirit just as you would if the summoner blacked out during summoning/binding. This means, if the spirit has animosity towards the caster, you've given an enemy control over your entire physical being.

I'm going to have to reread summoning and possession, but as I recall it, that would be my general approach. That being said, take the drain from shapechange, suffer the sustaining penalties while summoning and resisting drain, just to let a foriegn (possibly hostile) entity take control of your being. Go right ahead and have some fun with that.

I'm not sure I get why you're saying there's no augmented maximums with this combination. Is this some silly "critters don't have maximums" argument?

You should re-read those rules. It recommends letting the player roleplay the spirit in possession. For as long as the magician is owed services by the spirit, the magician is essentially at the helm.

Sustaining foci could probably take care of any sustaining issues.

Show me a rule where they do. Also take a look at the shapechange spell and the bonus attribute points you get for physical stats with each hit.

Its been a while since I read possession, it appears that if a summoner is possessed by a spirit he summons they remain aware and able to issue commands to the spirit possessing them. So, I guess that above post is moot. I guess I'm once again reminded that I'm lucky in that my players don't ever really force me look at them goofy and give a "here's why I'm going to say no" talk.

No, the burden is on you to show where the spell says you stop being a metahuman and where it says you can ignore your augmented maximums. Spell effects give specific exceptions to the base rules; meaning if it's not expressly written in the description, it's not an exception. They don't ignore all rules and only abide by the ones outlined in the description as if it existed in a bubble.

Yes, the spell changes you into a critter. No, it doesn't say you're no longer considered a metahuman. Yes, it changes your base attributes for the duration of the spell. No, it says nothing about ignoring the rules for augmented maximums.

Pixies, Centaurs, and Naga are all critters, too. They don't get to ignore the augmented maximums either. Nor do actual Shapeshifters.

Fair point. I will however point out that sapient critters like that are potential PCs, so they took the time to write attribute caps. I do wonder what the attribute cap on a great cat would be, had they bothered with writing them. I'm not entirely sure the metahuman attribute caps would apply. Shapechanging into a dracoform changes your caps.

It is pretty ridiculously twinkeriffic. However, it's not outside the realms of roleplayability. He's a shaman from Africa, he deifies Lions, and other great animals. When he shifts into their physical form, he also likes to take on the spirit of the beast.

Besides, if you put him in an urban environment he can't exactly be a lion the whole time. And if you twink him for lion form, his physical attributes will probably be fairly bad...i mean he'll have to have 4 body, but still.

A great cat is no different than a jaguar/lion shapeshifter, use those augmented maximum then.

My personal (subjective) recomendation: Critter attributes x 1.5

Just to take this one level of retardedness further: I see nothing stopping you from casting touch combat spells when you attack in lion form. You could do it, or the possessing spirit could.

Maybe. If we assume it's an "average" member of their species, than it'd be more like critter attribute X3. "average" human = 3, maximum human = 9.

That's why it's just a recomendation =)
If you want it more in line with the core rules, make it:

(Critter Attribute + 3) x 1.5

at the end of the day you would have to becasting the spell at force six or more to really be at risk of throwing the stats out of the range for augmented maximums for anything bigger then wolf / large cat. for something tiny like the rodents and such its more like anything above force four is silly but you get where I'm going with this.

A mage shaping himself into lion at force five is a pretty scary prospect

Honestly, I'm way more scared of a metahuman, but whatever you're into.

Lion as a base

B6 A5 R4 S5 with 2IPs

Upped by a force five spell gives you a mage

B11 A10 R9 S10 plus mental attributes which could be around
C3 In4 L5 W5 M5 Plus the 2IPs

Odds are that guy will go first in combat and can still cast in that form

That is pretty scary. A base line human would be B8 A8 R8 S8 at force five and only have 1IP which granted is still pretty worrying

I would suspect there would be a very good chance for the spirit to break free and keep the body. As I recall bound spirits are frequently honked off.

Yes. Very scary indeed. Add to that a force 4 spirit in possession.
B15 A14 R13 S14 C4 L4 W4 M4, and +8 hardened armor from immunity to normal damage.
This lion is now actually more powerful than a dragon.(not a Great Dragon)

Yes, but it's still just a big animal. The spirit's doing most of the work, and the metahuman would get that equally… and be able to carry guns.

Yeah, shapechanging into a metahuman may be better, since you could still wear armor. However, shapechanging into a metahuman just for the attribute boost seems far more lame than using a critter form, to me.

You assume the FAQ is correct about that.

Shapechange doesn't let you turn into a metahuman. It's very specific about turning the subject into a normal critter. Critters are not metahumans.

SR4A, p 292, Critters: "Critters refer in general to all non-human creatures that characters may encounter." There are also no metahumans listed in the sections for Ordinary Critters in SR4A or Mundane Critters in Running Wild.

This may boil down to if you take the FAQ as actually any use or not. The problem will come if you take the FAQ answer on one thing but not on another to me its all or nothing either it is correct or it is not. but each to their own.

FAQ is correct when it doesn't contradict the books.

I meant a 'plain old' possessed metahuman (armor, guns, etc.). Not a shapechanged one, heh.

Oh. I'm definitely more afraid of the lion.

A shapechanged Lion is scary for one on one combat but I find a similarly changed Hawk more scary if your going to still be casting alot

Cast at F5 you end up with physical stats of

B6 A9 R8 S6
get low light vision and the ability to fly

Never underestimate the ability to be a very small, mobile target

^^^^ This...

Keep the Faith

This would rule. So would the lion.

The anti-Possession argument (i.e. not in control) is not taking Channelling Meta-Magic into account. This totally throws any question about who's in control out the window

...and if I was too vague in my post - the Channelling metamagic talent puts the summoner in full control of his own body during the possession.

Hmm. this is getting weird.

So, If I as a magician decides to have myself possessed I am still fully aware but cannot control my body.

Which means I could potentially handle the situation like a rigger possessing a drone - except I can actually cast spells after I have told my spirit what to do.

1: Order spirit to give covering fire with my assault rifle.
2: Use my bodys senses (sight) to target the hostiles my spirit is shooting at and fling spells at them.

I should even be able to do this while shapeshifted and possesed.

I would give a minus to dicepool since I would (obviously) be a bit distracted by my spirit controlling my body.

I always thought of the FAQ as "good base for possible house rules, if the need arises", not as "rules as written". At the very least, at one point the FAQ opposes the original rules and I find the the whole "you can shapechange into a human, but not a metahuman"-thing rather... strange. In my book, paracritters still posess a magical attribute, which most metahumans don't.

This. Shapechange grants you a few higher body attributes while (most of the time, see monkeys) taking you the ability to use equipment designed for metahumans (armor, for instance). That's always been the deal. Possession always raised those attributes, too. So where's the big deal in here?
You could easily shapechange a force 6 materialization fire spirit into a black bear, too. It would gain high strengh this way. All you have to do is learn the spell, cast and sustain it.

I don't buy the argument that you escape your augmented max by switching forms. You're still in your own flesh and your flesh has limits. I've also held in the past, that shapechange doesn't escape you from the limits of your native form.


Also completely forgotten is this little chestnut. The form chosen must have an average body score within 2 points of yours. As soon as you possess yourself... your body score changes so far up to the augmented max that only things like elephants, whales, and the like have usable scores. Since the RAW never handles it... it's up to the GM how he plays it.

Same goes for things like lack of attribute caps... given the absolute twinkness that is high force spirits and especially that is possession mages I can't see myself going along with this.

I REALLY wish that they would throw the Possession rules out the window. As was said in other threads, Mages get enough love. Stop making them able to be a tank.

Also I REALLY hate the fact that the spirit doesn't have a say in what the person does with THEIR "body".

If I was GMing and some player did this I would have the spirit go along once or twice, but I would have the spirit getting angry, when the player goes overboard again, I would bring the hammer down.

Depending on how you view spirits you could always twist the mages order.

If the mage orders the spirit to possess him and attack the enemies they face would the mage control EVERYTHING the spirit does or would the spirit be able to interpret the orders to "handle things at your discretion" - thus giving the spirit a way to bend the orders a bit.

Like making dumb decisions in order to get disrupted and get some rest for 24 hours...

Nope... Average Troll Strength is 7, Their Augmented Cap is still only a 15, not a 21...

EDIT: OOOps, just realized this topic has been Necromancied. Sorry...

Getting disrupted is described as fairly traumatic from what I read. When it happens to a free spirit they loose a point of force, which if it happened to a summoned spirit with they way they are stated it would be like loosing a point in every attribute including edge, magic, and essence. With summoned spirits I think they are protected from that but it still is probably very unpleasant.

It is a tough call how often you need to expend services to get the spirit through the run while being useful. Assist my team mates might mean noncombat help and support abilities. Then when combat rolls around another service to have the spirit join combat and not just buff allies. Then after combat another service to have it continue aiding allies in whatever way seems reasonable. It is hard to say but the spirit is supposed to be on your side for the most part. Even when hostile it may be to teach you a lesson or at least not lethally hostile.

Anyway I always thought the stats for most critters were way to low.