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Jpwoo
In another thread about knowsofts someone said something to the effect of "you just know the information like you know your own name."

I just read a short story where a girl was worried because her mother converted to Islam, and she thought that her Mom might convert her through her neural implants, or use libido filters on her.

Now SR isn't really at that level of tech yet, but the next time that the characters buy discount knowlage softs, It might be interesting to slip a Shinto religion:3 skill in on the Japanese launguge:6 chip. Or Crazy militiaman conspiracy theory:5 bundled with Firearms B/R:4

I don't even know if the rules allow for it, but it would be an interesting peice of flavor in the game.
Backgammon
Yay, I spawned a sub-thread biggrin.gif

I think making multi-program chips is possible, because when making an Instructor chip, you have to chose an Instructor Rating, and then the Skill rating.

However, an Instructor chip isn't a knowsoft, and canon-wise I don't think split-skill chips have been touched. That said, I don't see why it couldn't be done. It might affect game balance a bit, but since multi-slot jacks are dirt cheap anyway, that still doesn't seem to be a problem.

So yeah, I like your idea.
Nikoli
Just add subversive ASSIST technology from the CC. This is very similair to the Dream Chipper module.
BitBasher
the problem is that if you buy a rating 4 system, it can only use a skill value at one time equal to its rating. A japanese(4)/shinto(3) chip will ignore one or the other, as it can use only 4 points at one time. Someone would definitely notice if they chip a Korean (2)/Bhuddist(2) chip and expect 4 rating points of a skill and only get 2.
Reaver
QUOTE (BitBasher)
the problem is that if you buy a rating 4 system, it can only use a skill value at one time equal to its rating. A japanese(4)/shinto(3) chip will ignore one or the other, as it can use only 4 points at one time. Someone would definitely notice if they chip a Korean (2)/Bhuddist(2) chip and expect 4 rating points of a skill and only get 2.

Unless the skills are pluscoded to reduce the size of the program the ASIST see's. biggrin.gif
Siege
Interesting thought -- knowledge chips don't require skill wires to process.

Emotional programming chips -- mood, behavior, personality don't have an Active classification.

Could you combine an Active chip with a Knowledge chip? Or behavior/emotional modifier program?

So you buy Handgun 4 but, unless you scan the chip and wonder why the file size(s) are so much larger, you probably won't notice the: Aggression 4 or Homicidal Impulses (4) commands...

-Siege
Jpwoo
Well it wouldn't technically be two separate skills. the second skill that would be piggybacked would be from the bias of the author of the chip. So if you get a Macroeconomics chip from a liberal university it is different than a Macroecon chip written by conservative talk radio hosts.

This wouldn't apply all the time, just another curve that a GM can throw at a character when they try and save some money.

I would agree that the whole thing would be kind of broken from a game balance point of veiw. I just like the idea of someone buying a Auto B/R chip and suddenly calling trucks lorries.
Zazen
I think it's a great idea, and I think you're right that it shouldn't be a seperate skill.

Just when does a character roll his Homicidal Impulses skill, anyway?
Siege
QUOTE (Zazen)
I think it's a great idea, and I think you're right that it shouldn't be a seperate skill.

Just when does a character roll his Homicidal Impulses skill, anyway?

I included two examples:

Aggression 4 which functions as a skill. When presented with a situation, the chip rolls it's dice against the host's Willpower. If the chip scores 1 or more successes, the host responds in an aggressive manner. The more successes, the more aggressive the response.

The form of that aggression is subject to the GM -- it would take a lot more successes to make a Girl Scout reach for a knife than, say, a samurai pull his gun and start firing.

Homicidal Impulses (4) is an emotional command chip that embeds thoughts or actions in the host's subconscious. When presented with a trigger that could be pre-determined: see women alone or Renraku logo, the character must make a Willpower check against the TN of the emotional command chip. The trigger could simply be open-ended: whenever thwarted or frustrated or simply "right the frag now", meaning the character has to make regular Willpower checks _not_ to feel the need to kill.

If the character fails the check, he or she feels the overwhelming urge to act upon this thought/need/impulse in his or her head. Depending on the chip, the host might be compelled to do everything in his or her power to destroy the object of their ire or simply go on crazed killing spree.

Rough ideas off the top of my head, sorry.

-Siege
Jason Farlander
Knowsofts links and chipjacks don't have a rating. With the purchase of the basic version of either you can use any rating of knowsoft.

I'm not so sure I like the idea of having multiple softs on a single chip, as it does render the idea of a multislot chipjack somewhat worthless. Also, softs that emulate skills (knowsofts and activesofts) are generated from the knowledge/activities of a large number of subjects that possess the skill, so its unlikely that bias would remain in the recording unless that was the intent of the recorder - which would probably be rare insofar as the chip would become less marketable.

I think the idea of philosophically-biased chips is a valid one, but a shinto-biased language chip wouldnt necessarily teach the user anything about the shinto religion - you would just be inclined to agree with those sorts of Shintoish statements made in Japanese.
Siege
It can be argued either way:

The chipjack/datajack is only capable of reading one source of information at a time which seems a little silly in the case of a datajack

-or-

Since the same type of chip can store Handgun 2 or Handgun 10, you can combine knowledge skills but at a much higher cost to the PC.

Truthfully, I rather like the idea -- it helps expand the idea of p-fix chips.

Although your point about game balance is well-founded. Multislot chipjacks would still have their uses because Active skills do have ratings and if you've invested in skillwires, odds are you're not gonna stop with one Actively chipped skill.

-Siege

Edited: To restructure the sentence and remove the double "although".
Jpwoo
QUOTE
Also, softs that emulate skills are generated from the knowledge/activities of a large number of subjects that possess the skill, so its unlikely that bias would remain in the recording unless that was the intent of the recorder - which would probably be rare insofar as the chip would become less marketable.


Well the idea is that these biased chips either come from discount providers or people with an agenda. There shouldn't be a bias in most commercially available chips.
Arz
QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
I think the idea of philosophically-biased chips is a valid one, but a shinto-biased language chip wouldnt necessarily teach the user anything about the shinto religion - you would just be inclined to agree with those sorts of Shintoish statements made in Japanese.

I think in the case of languages it's much easier than this. Just look at the dialect list. You can just have him speak like a priest. Since my nihongo is rusty I'll give you a reverse example.

Johnson: Do you understand?

An asian-looking chipper(in a brogue): Don'cha know it'll be terminated, boyo. In the name of da fadder, da son, and da holy ghost.

The Johnson looks away slightly while all the runners make language skill rolls to see what he said.

Lantzer
Minor biases would be encoded into the skill, by the choice of what information to include and how to weight it - but the only thing that would be biased is the knowledge from the chip.

Anything outside of such a limited bias would probably fall under the catagory of personafix BTLs (mood chips, agression chips, etc).
moosegod
There are chips in M&M that do that already, aren't there?
Jpwoo
There might be?
Glyph
I don't think other skills should be piggybacked on knowsofts, but I do like the idea of a knowsoft having an "author" bias, especially in fields where there is no consensus. If someone slots a psychology or economics chip, he/she will be likelier to get one that has built-in biases (for or against supply-side economics, etc.). For cheaper chips, you could do a lot worse. Imagine slotting a sociology chip and finding yourself saying "There would be a lot less overcrowding if they'd euthanize all those damn trogs".
moosegod
QUOTE (moosegod)
There are chips in M&M that do that already, aren't there?

There is not. I was thinking of BTL's
simonw2000
QUOTE (Glyph)
I don't think other skills should be piggybacked on knowsofts, but I do like the idea of a knowsoft having an "author" bias, especially in fields where there is no consensus.

Don't let a megacorp hear you say that!
Siege
I think it would add some flavor to skillchips in general and make PCs wary of buying cracked or illegal copies from the local street vendor.

Alternatively, nasty deckers could contaminate chip batches, forcing recalls of chips...which are slated for destruction, but end up getting liquidated on the street instead. And in the hands of PCs...or their dependents.

For those of you who dislike the piggyback idea -- are you voting against it because of game balance or you just don't think the idea would fly?

-Siege
simonw2000
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Just add subversive ASSIST technology from the CC. This is very similair to the Dream Chipper module.

Read that. Pretty good stuff.
Siege
QUOTE (simonw2000)
QUOTE (Nikoli @ Feb 27 2004, 04:10 PM)
Just add subversive ASSIST technology from the CC.  This is very similair to the Dream Chipper module.

Read that. Pretty good stuff.

Sort of -- although the chips from "Dreamchipper" didn't require skillwires, if I remember correctly.

Although p-fix chips of "Cleopatra" or "Ultimate Seductress" or "James Bond: Man of Mystery" would have to be abound somewhere. "Paco, the Cabana Boy"? "Jack the Ripper" or "Jason with a Chainsaw Fetish."

Read "When Gravity Fails" by George Alec Effinger. That'll put p-fix chips in a whole new light.

I'm still debating on bio-stimulus chips -- they'd be nixed on game balance issues alone, but it's a neat idea.

-Siege
moosegod
Siege-

I'm not so much voting against it as wondering how it would work in game mechanics terms.
Siege
QUOTE (moosegod)
Siege-

I'm not so much voting against it as wondering how it would work in game mechanics terms.

Sorry Moose -- how what would work in game terms?

-Siege
simonw2000
QUOTE (simonw2000)
QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 29 2004, 01:56 AM)
I don't think other skills should be piggybacked on knowsofts, but I do like the idea of a knowsoft having an "author" bias, especially in fields where there is no consensus.

Don't let a megacorp hear you say that!

And my warning STILL stands!
simonw2000
QUOTE (Arz)
QUOTE (Jason Farlander @ Feb 27 2004, 12:21 PM)
I think the idea of philosophically-biased chips is a valid one, but a shinto-biased language chip wouldnt necessarily teach the user anything about the shinto religion - you would just be inclined to agree with those sorts of Shintoish statements made in Japanese.

I think in the case of languages it's much easier than this. Just look at the dialect list. You can just have him speak like a priest. Since my nihongo is rusty I'll give you a reverse example.

Johnson: Do you understand?

An asian-looking chipper(in a brogue): Don'cha know it'll be terminated, boyo. In the name of da fadder, da son, and da holy ghost.

The Johnson looks away slightly while all the runners make language skill rolls to see what he said.

I burst out laughing from reading this! Good stuff!
A Clockwork Lime
You guys are just talking about a low-rated Personafix with the desired behavioral patterns/biases clustered with the desired Knowsoft or Activesoft and any additional Knowsofts that you feel would belong with the chip. It's entirely game-legal and covered by the rules. CC p. 67, "Cluster," states as much.

As others have pointed out, only ActiveSofts require skillwires; all others skillsofts, including BTLs, can be of any rating desired. If the soft is being manufactured by someone with an agenda, they'll simply swallow the extra costs and sell it as a standard skillsoft; the extra memory and data on the chip would only show up if the chip was checked out beforehand, and CC has rules for that as well.

For example, a standard Rating 6 Pistols skillsoft with a Clint Eastwood sneer and voice pattern (Personafix 2ish) clustered into it would cost 16,320 (10,800 for the Pistols 6 and 80 for the Personafix 2, multiplied by 1.5). If the character selling it were trying to hide the Personafix, they'd just have to swallow the extra 5,520 for the clustered Personafix. Regardless, the chip would still only have an ASIST 6/Pulse 108 demand on the user's Skillwires even though the chip holds more data than that simply because Personafixes don't require Skillwires.

I guess I'm just a bit confused about why this is being overcomplicated or seen as a game-balance problem.
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