Well if you can "An internal transponder (Signal 1) allows the camera to be slaved to the photographer’s commlink." to view and assense the photo why the hubub over a digital copy?

There is a leap between

and

You need mage sight to use assensing or cast spells with out directly looking at it.

The argument might be "then what else is the commlink supposed to be used for?"

Well you could use it to shoot the camera remotely, keep track of exposure times on a digital clock, and light reading if they have any affect on the image. The camera might even let you remotely view what you are about to take a picture of but only as mundane video.

You would need to get clever to use this camera on someone with out their knowledge. Hide and aim the camera where a guest will be seated at a meal or meating and then hope he does not get up to use the John.

Is it slaved for the purpose of viewing, or for controls/security/etc.?

It seems to make more sense for the 'photo' to be non-digital and non-visual.

Uh, why? How is that any different than just assensing the fool as he's sitting there, either directly or through a fiber-optic camera system?

Seriously, what is this huge "OMG THIS IS SO BROKENED!" nonsense coming from? Yeah, it's a bit too much magic-meets-machine, but not to the point of being traumatic to the setting or causing massive unrest the world over. Have any of you ever actually even seen the damn thing in use in the game? I have. Once. And it was for a paranormal hunter character of mine who liked to take snapshots for a book he was writing, and in which one case actually kinda-sorta helped out on a run by saving some time in describing a spirit's aura to another teammate (rather than, you know, just flat out telling him in words). Oooh, scary broken!

Did anyone say this was broken, scary or otherwise? Just wondering.

When you convert that Astral "Image" to something visual, you end up with a Visual Image... a Visual Image that can be duplicated... it is as simple as that in my opinion... I am not trying to work out the intricate little details that you seem to imply are there, because I do not care about those details... The book says that you can take a picture of the Signature (Physical Representation of a Psychic Sense) and then duplicate it and archive it...

At that point, I need nothing else to make it work in my game. I do understand your reservations, but I really do not really care about the ramifications of technology and magic interacting in the way that they have put forth. I am okay with Manatech... I am sorry that you are not, but I can understand the sentiment.

As for the Magic is not Science argument... Any Science that is sufficiently advanced may appear as Magic to those who do not understand it... I cannot remember exactly who said that, but there you go...

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Your opinion of whether it is a logical argument is just that, an Opinion... The book says one thing very specifically... You can duplicate and archive the image created by the Quicksilver Camera. It does not go into any detail about that after that point. Logically, I have used what is available in the technology that exists to fill in that void. You can say that you do not like it, and that you do not agree with it, but it is still JUST YOUR OPINION, just like it is MY OPINION. You don't like it, don't use it... Just do not tell me that I am doing it wrong because you do not like it. I have given my reasons for using my interpretation of the way I see it, and all you do is say that it is not logical... But you know what? It is logical, and you have yet to offer a counter example, using the technology available, to explain and reconcile what the book says.

Please provide me an argument that fits what the book says and also uses your interpretation and maybe we will have something to discuss... Just saying I am wrong solves nothing. I have been known to change my mind on occassion, when the arguments support one interpretation over another. From what I can see, The argument I use supports my interpretation of the technology of the 2070's (without breaking anything within the setting)... How about yours?

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Yeah, You are probably right there Chinagreenelvis... Thanks

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Clarke.

Thank You Yerameyahu... Much Appreciated...

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Yep.

Still not sure why though... Oh well...

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See the big text? That's what I have a problem with. First, it's not "logical" but whatever - who cares about that. You're blatantly adding in things that aren't there and then telling me that it's RAW. You want to add in your own thing and play it? I won't tell you that you're wrong to do so. You want to tell me that your crazy idea is RAW? I demand a serious argument.

Regarding opinion versus fact, I've been citing one fact constantly, and here it is: FACT: The rules say you must assense the photo to get any useful information from it and you admit that you can't assense any digital copies. Case closed, enjoy duplicating and archiving your pretty pictures.

Don't bother replying if you're just going to repeat the same blocks of text that you've been spamming before.

The logical problems it causes is why it is seriously borked power wise. If you can catalog astral pictures in digital format there will be a huge market for it on the runners side and basically mean death for the PCs on the corp/police side. Security mages cast a spell or you take a picture of them at lunch or whatever now you can sell it and all his wards are crap, Go to your fixer/talismonger and buy the astral imprints of the security mages and wow the astral security turned to crap. On the corp side they can distribute your digital image which can be used for ritual spells against you getting a huge number of bounty hunters and other crap on you tail. Before you had to worry about bob the security mage who might take the time to track you down but eventually give up. Now the entire planet has ritual materials on you.

Google search "Tymeaus astral signiture" because you pissed someone off at a bar, have a small to large bounty, hey now you are dead awesome. The problem is in this kind of case the corps don't even have to really do anything so its not a cost benefit scenario, they just upload crap onto photobucket and say hey here is the astral sigs of some sloppy ass shadowrunners who raided our facility have fun world.

I can see why you would assume digital but that's just it: it is an assumption.

I found videos of someone actualy going through the pocess of duplicating a photo by old fashioned means. That is how you make prints of film or make prints of slides or prints of large plate photos and so on.

The text could definetly be more clear. But I think it is more of a stretch to think that any copies means digital, rather than made in the same way described in the text, that is by using a quicksilvercamera.

Believe what you want Lanlaorn... There is a lot of things in the rules that you have to interpret to use (let me give you a hint... This is one of them)... You do not agree with me and that is okay... However, just saying that and then not putting forth any other effort does not help anyone here, especially you... I asked you for other options and you still obviously refuse to provide any. Because the book says one thing (and I use it as it reads), I am free to interpret that any way that I see Fit in the absense of HArd Rules... My Way is how I intend to do so unless something better comes along... YOUR WAY IS NOT BETTER!!!!!!! It is just sticking you head in the sand and going "LA LA LA LA LA"... How hewlpful is that? Not very...

As Far as Facts... I also used them... "You can duplicate and archive the image created by the Quicksilver Camera." Now... Interpret that for me... My guess is that you cannot... YOU CAN DUPLICATE IT AND THEN ARCHIVE IT... Case Closed... RAW... ARGUE THAT... How you choose to go about that is your own choice... I am going Digital, as that is what the world uses for such things, and is never contradicted in the entry for the archiving of the PICTURES created, duplicated, and then archived... You can use whatever you want, I really do not care one way or another...

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I think that you are reaching here... the fact that they could do this without the ability to catalog the astral pictures is pretty glaring... Think about it... if they really wanted to Kill you, they could, with no questions asked and little problem on their part... it is really quite simple actually, and I can think of many scenarios in which it would/could occur. Hell, I used to design such scenarios for the military on occassion. The fact is, it would be very easy to track down and eliminate every Shadowrunner in any given City, at any given time... Why has this never occurred? Because the Runners are a valuable commodity (and useful deniable asset). The Corps know that by the time they have tracked you down, their valuable prototype will already be in the hands of someone else. So it is not really something that they actively pursue... What they do is hire out shadowrunners to see if they can get whatever it is that you stole back.

I can guarantee that any given group of shadowrunners leaves enough ritual samples for an interested Corporate Mage to track you down and kill you, without the added inconvenience of your lingering Astral Signatures... and you know what? Finding that sample is relatively easy to do as well...

Now, if you read what I wrote... I never claimed (NOT ONCE) that the Corps could/would use your Duplicated and digitized astral signature to track you with ritual sorcery... What I said was that they could use that archive as a database of samples to tie you into whatever other jobs that you were in where you left an Astral Signature... eventually, they will have enough evdence, that when you are caught, you will go away for ever (unless you are willing to perform just one little favor for them, of course)... The same way that DNA evidence and Fingerprints are archived for just such purposes... The Digitized pictures are not useful for astrall assensing, so your worries are null and void at that point... all the scenarios that you posited are for naught... it will not work... BUT those pictures will STILL BE UNIQUE to you... so they can be used to set up a database...just like Fingerprinting and DNA evidence is used.

Notice that if you are never caught, then that preponderance of evidence will be of little use... you are just a number with a bunch of investigative files attached... and with the Data Balkanization that occurs everyday in Shadowrun, you may never even know (or care) about said evidence... Much like the governments set of FIngerprints and DNA samples that are onfile for me... they are of little use and no concern to me at all... BUT they DO exist for referential purposes.

I do not see this as a catastrophe... it is just another method that can be used to tie you (the criminal Mage) into a crime scene... that is all...

Pleasure discoursing with you Shinobi Killfist... Hopefully my position makes a little more sense for you...

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Oh No, It definitely is an Assumption... and of course, you can indeed go the Old School way of creating archival photos on Paper (I have done that a few times in my lifeactually, but not since we could digitize them), But why would you... We have the tedchnology in 2070+ to actually DIGITIZE EMOTIONS... how cool is that... Digitizing a simple photographic plate (even if it is ManaTech, and even if the book outright says we can duplicate and Archive them, but give no explanations) is a no brainer at that point...

Quicksilver Cameras take Astral Photos... Not photos of physical photographic plates... Just Sayin'

I feel confident in my assumption at this point... No one has actually put forth any reasons that have convinced me otherwise, though I guess that it could still happen.

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I think the rules are vague enough to allow for either interpretation.

Personally, I like the idea that copies are NOT digital and rather another plate. But that is strictly my opinion. But if one was to allow digital copies I don't think it would be the game breaker some think it might.

If one was to allow the digital copies in their game I would think that a huge database that can sort them would be out. I don't think a computer could make any logical sense out of the pictures. Most senses in the astral are tuned to emotion and state of being/health, etc. So sorting a signature that has a "red" signature would do what? Put it together with all the reds. Does that mean angry or embarassed? Or does it mean happy for one Mr. X and depressed for Mr.Y? You wouldn't be able to auto sort like that and get any real results. At BEST when uploaded the person who Assessed it could give a description and have the description as meta-tags, but I doubt that would be terribly effective either, leading to too many results with most searches. I think if a database did exist it would be sorted more by things like case number, physical location of picture, known info about the mage in question, etc.



As for the posting of signatures on the trix... I don't really see that as terribly bad either. Ok, lets assume that the situation is such that the corp can freely admit to having the run performed on them (not a great idea in most cases to advertise to the world that your new prototype is loose on the street and up for grabs, that your security has holes, that the run wasn't against something you need to deny the existance of, etc) ... So a corp puts up your signature and says this was a recent run against them.

Unless they put up camera footage of you or had some sort of positively identifying info on you, then the only people who could do anything would be someone who has already seen the signature and committed to memory. And if they had that positivlly IDing info then why not use it themselves? Ok, so LoneStar or another LEO maybe has some investigators that may have seen it? Fine, but what can they do? First off they need to know who the mage behind the signature is. Second, extraterritoriality works both ways and the crime in question took place outside their jurisdiction, and why would they hunt down criminals that they arn't getting paid to capture?

So that leaves who? NPCs with personal grudges. Well, if they already have a personal grudge against you, AND know your signature too since they need to recognize it, then what do they really get out of it? If they already know who you are they have more effective ways of tracking and messing with you. The most I see is knowing your involvement in the run and the opportunity to drop your name (likely fake too thanks fake SINs and street names) to that corp. This hardly seems game breaking to me. And this is all fairly true whether the picture is on the trix, or someone makes a hundred thousand copies and drops them out a zeppelin on the streets of Seattle.

That makes a lot of sense, and was something I tried to convey, obviously very badly over the last few days.

That being said... I do not see the "Digitally Archived" copies quite like you do, I do not think... It has been Canon for quite a while that an Astral Signature is identifiably unique... so my assumption is that the picture, that the Quicksilver Camera is capable of producing, is also uniquely identifying, even without the Astral undertones that you get from Asssensing (the emotional content fo the signature if you will). As such, the computer would be able to hone in on those "mundane" things that make it unique (like they do for fingerprints)...

I do agree, however, that the image is of little use other than as a "fingerprint" of your presence. And it would be used in exactly the same manner in my opinion.

Thanks for taking the time to put forth your opinion there Tagz... it was very well done.

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This is like talking to a brick wall.

Hello Pot...

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I just want to point out:
Does the cannon ever say that it is "identifiably unique" in ANY mundane sense? If all the cannon examples of it being unique are done via assensing and not a mundane form of observation then there is no way to say for sure that there IS any thing unique about them to mundane vision. An example of a unique sound to a deaf person is what I'm driving at. You probably know more cannon then myself (I know more rules I think n_n) so I'll leave that one to you.

I kind of like the idea of two investigators looking at a line up of digital images of signatures and the mundane just seeing blurry light every time while the awakened one points to one and says "he's our man". But I don't know if that's cannon or not.

Probably not... This is, after all, the first time a Mundane Image can be obtained from an Astral Signature... it may not be or it may be... it is left to interpretation (as I think it should be, to accomodate those that are uncomfortable with a solid, single interpretation, especially one where Magic and Technology are merged a bit)... I choose the route that it seems Shadowrun is going... the Integration of Magic and Technology is on the horizon (we already have some of it in game), and apparently a lot of Shadowrun regulars (if Dumpshock is any indicator, but then again, maybe not) are not happy with that... I, on the other hand, am looking forward to it... ManaTech is only the beginning. I do not see Manatech as the downfall of Shadowrun like so many others seem too...

As for your lineup analogy... the mundane will not ever be able to confirm "that he is our man"with 100% validity... you will still probably need assensing for that particular verdict... best you will get from the mundane is that "these two images are identical, and that [particular image] came from person #3, so I must conclude that he is the guilty party." Still a lot of work to do from there... that is the beginning of a trial, not the end. Again, the Astral Photograph is a tool for evidence gathering, not a jury in and of itself.

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I am just basing things on off what I'd do. If I could take a picture of someone and then his magical defenses become vary penetrable with just masking, I'd sell it to people who'd use it and I'd try to buy similar images. I suspect after a while there would be a fairly complete collection of security mage signatures on file for the criminal community. And for corporations and cops like I said the issue becomes there is virtually 0 investment on there end for the purposes of mass dissemination for if and when they want revenge. Normally the only thing stopping corps is a cost benefit ratio, in this case the only cost is possible loss of future use of the runner. And using the copies as links is expressly stated in the section on the quicksilver camera, so a single photo can royally screw you in the they can track you anywhere, no matter how many identities you burn or cosmetic surgeries you receive they can always find you. Though in the case of copies it is just a symbolic link, so it is harder.

If the copies are physical there is a realistic limit on how wide spread this information can be, which keeps it sane. I also just don't think you can have a digital copy of this due to how assensing works, but it isn't described so who knows.

Mad Alchemist:good news everbody, I just invented smishon.
Mundane:cool. Is that like a combination of smell and vision?
Mad Alchemist:Exactly! Smell and vision, and touch, and sound, and emotions, and a memory of the past; what you did and where you were and what you touched and what touched you and what you felt and how well you felt. That and how good you might be at casting a fire ball, and also whether or not you are so full of metal that you are barely alive, or so full of metal that you are not alive, in a way.
Mundane: I don't see any of that. It just looks like a photograph to me.
Mad Alchemist: Indeed it is also a photograph.
Mundane: It is not even in color.
Mad Alchemist: It is in color, lots of colors it is just that you can not see them.
Mundane: Well allright... Hey, do you mind if I fax this to my grand mother?
Mad alchemist: I don't see why not.

I do get where you are coming from, don't get me wrong...
And yes, I could see using the Copy as a Symbolic Link to the Caster... after all, it represents them in some fashion (and works a whole lot better than the Hamburger wrapper they use during lunch, in my opinion)... But the thing is, there is absolutely no lack of opportunities to obtain a link to someone (physical or symbolic).. I mean really, it is so easy it is not even funny... so I really do not see the issue here...

But you are right... they do not describe how it works, but they do describe duplication and archiving... I guess they did that so that the tables can structure it the way that they see fit... who knows... I know how I am going to use it, and I know how you are going to use it... and the cool thing is that neither of us are wrong...

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