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chinagreenelvis
QUOTE
Quickening: A magician who has learned this power can manipulate her sustained spells so that they sustain themselves, rather than relying on the magician for power. The magician must cast the sustained spell normally. While sustaining the spell, she takes a Complex Action and spends 1 Karma point per point of Force. The spell will then sustain itself indefinitely. Spells sustained in this manner are still active and may be tracked back to the magician, but they do not inflict a dice pool modifier for sustaining. Quickened spells add extra dice equal to the Karma used to quicken them for any tests they must make, including against dispelling (an initiate may even spend extra Karma on a quickened spell—up to the Force extra—to make it harder to defeat). If a quickened spell is disrupted (such as losing to an astral barrier), the spell will end. The magician can also end the spell at any time as long as she can astrally perceive it. Regardless, when a quickened spell ends it is irrevocable and the magician’s Karma points spent to quicken it are lost. The initiate is automatically aware if a quickened spell is dispelled or otherwise ended.


Expenditure of 1 Karma for every point of force for the self-sustainment of a single spell? Total crap.

Most spells are downright worthless unless they're cast at force 4 or higher. Who in their right mind is going to permanently expend 4 or more points of Karma just to avoid a -2 dice pool penalty? At that kind of price, this would be rationally used once or twice in the entire course of a character's lifetime. It would have to be reserved for the most awesome kick-ass spell that would hopefully last over many, many game sessions - in which case you could wind up spending almost as much karma as it cost just to get the damned metamagic in the first place. Seems like a waste of an initiation grade on something that could be a lot more fun if able to be used on a regular basis. Surely there must be a better way of regulating it?

Discuss.
Demerzel
Horses, pay good money to buy them hay and they just give you crap.
Summerstorm
While it is VERY, VERY... VEEEERY costly i regard it as one of the best metamagics.

First: You can make enchantments for/on OTHER people. If you are rich enough (and legal enough) you can get some quickened spell cast on you. For example you could get anchored reflexes (which work as wired ones without ANY loss of ANYTHING but money) or a permanent boost to attributes, shieldings, etc.

Second: if you cram them full of extra-karma they are pretty much indistructable. If you have a Force 6 spell with 6 extra karma it throws 18 dice to defend against counterspelling. And you could overcast it surely even harder without much problems.

Overall: Yes, one spell can easily cost as much karma as an familar (Ally Spirit) but rich, mundane people will always pay a lot for magical powers.
Piersdrach
I like Quickening. I guess it depends on 'how you play' whether or not quickening will be useful.

Combat Sense,, Increased Attribute, Increased Reflexes, Agony.... the list goes on. Again it depends on how you play that determines alot about what is useful.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jul 5 2010, 10:10 PM) *
While it is VERY, VERY... VEEEERY costly i regard it as one of the best metamagics.

First: You can make enchantments for/on OTHER people. If you are rich enough (and legal enough) you can get some quickened spell cast on you. For example you could get anchored reflexes (which work as wired ones without ANY loss of ANYTHING but money) or a permanent boost to attributes, shieldings, etc.

Which are disrupted your first trip through a warded area, which according to many on dump shock pretty much permeate the known universe. So that high class hotel you like? Warded. That wonderful doctor? Warded. Your Lawyer's office? Warded. Your Favorite clothing store? Warded.

QUOTE
Second: if you cram them full of extra-karma they are pretty much indistructable. If you have a Force 6 spell with 6 extra karma it throws 18 dice to defend against counterspelling. And you could overcast it surely even harder without much problems.
How much money do you think it costs to have an already karma starved mage cast that on you? They are making good money working for the corp anyway, and are not going to sacrifice the advancement of almost a complete grade of initiation just so you can have improved reflexes spell cast an your pampered behind.

QUOTE
Overall: Yes, one spell can easily cost as much karma as an familar (Ally Spirit) but rich, mundane people will always pay a lot for magical powers.

Now find a mage willing to sacrifice the amount of karma needed to produce an ally spirit so a mundane can feel a little more confident about himself? I'm sorry, but the costs associated with this are absurdly high, and no mage would likely ever agree to pay them for someone else's benefit, especially when a single event such as travel on a suborbital, or exposure to the background count many people also insist permeates the planet can and will destroy the spell, work, and karma put into it.

Caadium
One thing that is being overlooked here is the fact that not all spells have to be cast on a person (that may or may not run into wards and such).

You can use quickening to create some nasty permanent wards, illusions, etc. Think of it like the movie, "The Shadow" when they realize that the entire hotel has been hidden.
Wasabi
A force 1 quickened Spatial Sense is a great way to tell if there is a ward nearby.
(as the spatial sense has to beat the ward and at F1 it will consistently show a blank on the mental map.

That trick is great for anyone with quickened spells so they can tell when they may need to penetrate a ward before they do so.

Edge should always be used to uncap hits on something that may be quickened.
Demerzel
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jul 5 2010, 09:25 PM) *
Which are disrupted your first trip through a warded area, which according to many on dump shock pretty much permeate the known universe. So that high class hotel you like? Warded. That wonderful doctor? Warded. Your Lawyer's office? Warded. Your Favorite clothing store? Warded.

Quickening may be used on any sustained spell, not all of which must be targeted at a moving object that may pass a barrier. Want an AoE Orgy in that room forever, no prob, a few Karma and you're in business.

QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jul 5 2010, 09:25 PM) *
How much money do you think it costs to have an already karma starved mage cast that on you? They are making good money working for the corp anyway, and are not going to sacrifice the advancement of almost a complete grade of initiation just so you can have improved reflexes spell cast an your pampered behind.

Now find a mage willing to sacrifice the amount of karma needed to produce an ally spirit so a mundane can feel a little more confident about himself? I'm sorry, but the costs associated with this are absurdly high, and no mage would likely ever agree to pay them for someone else's benefit, especially when a single event such as travel on a suborbital, or exposure to the background count many people also insist permeates the planet can and will destroy the spell, work, and karma put into it.


People do mathematically idiotic things every day in real life (take the lottery for example). What makes the argument that it's not a good use of resources meaningful?
Summerstorm
Wards do not break your quickening... Your quickening breaks wards *g*. But true, only high level karma-enhanced ones of course.

And with the price: i would charge about 20.000 per Karma point maximum. But it is hard to pinpoint the costs. Maybe from 5.000 upwards, if someone REALLY likes you (You know the old, dying sorceror whose life you saved and wants to pass on some money before he dies).

So yes, people pay half a million for a super-spell. They also pay a million for some delta-move-by-wire, yes? Oh, make it more, a million is Wired Reflexes.

I had, for example in one of my campaigns one older gentleman, a CEO of a banking corporation. Who had a quickened spell cast on him, allowing him to feel if someone lies to him. He had it done, because he is rich and eccentric (he had a tick with truth). Hell, i wouldn't be surprised if people RESEARCH and design a spell exclusivly for one casting on one customer.

A Magician specializing in enchantments could invest time into magical goods (they costs just few karma to make) and his karma for quickening. I think it is a nice living he can make of it.
Wasabi
QUOTE (SR4a @ p194)
In some cases a focus, spirit, or even a character may be unintentionally forced into a situation where either they or the barrier must give. For example, a character who unknowingly walks through a mana barrier carrying an active focus, or a dual being in an elevator that passes through a ward on its way up. In this case, make the same Opposed Test described above (using Force x 2 for spells, spirits, foci, etc.). If the barrier wins, however, the item or entity still breaks through but is automatically disrupted. Disrupted spells immediately end and disrupted foci deactivate.
Whipstitch
Eh, I'm sure there's someone out there with a quickened Force 1 Orgasm and few regrets.
Makki
i'd quicken Force 1 Water Wall spells all over Africa because i'm a Magician without Borders! Ever lasting fountains that hurts a little...
other thought. what about a quickened Alter Temperature for my arctic research base?
A quickened Reinforce spell for even more armor and structure points on a vehicle of your choice, probably no problems with wards either..
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Jul 5 2010, 10:57 PM) *
Eh, I'm sure there's someone out there with a quickened Force 1 Orgasm and few regrets.

Or not, put it in your guest bedroom, and take your partners there?
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Demerzel @ Jul 5 2010, 10:39 PM) *
People do mathematically idiotic things every day in real life (take the lottery for example). What makes the argument that it's not a good use of resources meaningful?

Its called cost benefit ratio. Even the lottery costs little to play. The amount of Karma needed to sustain the high force spells people were talking about, with the additional Karma costs needed to reinforce them. That is a quantity no mage would be to eager to part with, and the quantity of money they would demand in return would be one that no one would part with easily either.
Wasabi
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jul 6 2010, 04:38 AM) *
Or not, put it in your guest bedroom, and take your partners there?


Two words: "Anchoring Focus"

;-)
darthmord
Never mind the fact that the spell can be tracked back to the mage...
Grinder
QUOTE (Grinder @ Jul 6 2010, 03:59 PM) *
Minor details. grinbig.gif

chinagreenelvis
I think that I would at the very least adjust the Karma cost to 1 for every 2 points of force. That seems more reasonable, given everything that has been laid out here. Right?
augmentin
QUOTE (chinagreenelvis @ Jul 6 2010, 10:31 AM) *
I think that I would at the very least adjust the Karma cost to 1 for every 2 points of force. That seems more reasonable, given everything that has been laid out here. Right?


Doubt it'll ever happen. It's been part of the mechanic since at least SR2.
Piersdrach
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jul 6 2010, 04:55 AM) *
Its called cost benefit ratio. Even the lottery costs little to play. The amount of Karma needed to sustain the high force spells people were talking about, with the additional Karma costs needed to reinforce them. That is a quantity no mage would be to eager to part with, and the quantity of money they would demand in return would be one that no one would part with easily either.

Except you are blurring the lines between "game reality"(used very loosely) with game mechanics.
DireRadiant
It's good to have choices in a game, especially choices that are not all equivalent. Gives options for all players, each of whom are different.

I have had players that use quickening, and some that don't. It would be a boring game without those choices.

Also keep in mind some options are great for NPCs. Nothing like a recurring opponent obtaining magical powers to get the PCs thinking.
Dr.Rockso
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jul 6 2010, 11:39 AM) *
It's good to have choices in a game, especially choices that are not all equivalent. Gives options for all players, each of whom are different.

I have had players that use quickening, and some that don't. It would be a boring game without those choices.

Also keep in mind some options are great for NPCs. Nothing like a recurring opponent obtaining magical powers to get the PCs thinking.

This
Ol' Scratch
The only time Quickening isn't a liability for shadowrunners is if the GM completely ignores everything about the magical side of the game world. Background counts, wards, dual-natured security critters, uppity spirits, astral perceivers, and so on and so forth will make walking around with a permanent, uncontrollable spell and signature tied to you a nightmare. It's not even about a GM focusing on you for having it, it's just a fact of the game world. It's a horrible, horrible metamagic technique for any kind of criminal. Not just for the repercussions of having a permanent spell active for all to see, but because at any time it can go 'pop' and you lose all the Karma you poured into it seemingly for no reason whatsoever.

If you could activate and deactivate it on a whim, like tapping a tattoo or something, then it'd be a very viable technique to know and use. But one major ward or a hefty background count, and you're screwed.

The only characters that would benefit from it (by reducing the crippling effects) would be those who already suffer all those problems, like Ghouls, Shapeshifters, or other dual-natured beings. You may as well go all out at that point since you'll need/want to avoid background counts and just fight your way through wards if you don't have Masking and Extended Masking anyway.

I honestly suggest approaching your GM (assuming you're not the GM) and asking for some means of deactivating/reactivating them along the lines of foci.
Lanlaorn
QUOTE
If you could activate and deactivate it on a whim, like tapping a tattoo or something, then it'd be a very viable technique to know and use. But one major ward or a hefty background count, and you're screwed.


You've described a sustaining focus wink.gif Considering the "up front" karma cost of wasting an initiation on Quickening you'd even have to cast a few quickened spells before even matching the karma price of the equivalent foci.
Ol' Scratch
No, I didn't just describe a sustaining focus. The biggest benefit of Quickening is having it placed on other people; to pay someone to have a spell quickened on you. And at only 2 Karma per Force, no, you're not getting some huge bargain. One pop-and-renew and you've matched its cost, but are still nowhere near its benefits when used solely on yourself. (Nevermind that sustaining foci are versatile, allowing you to sustain entire categories of spells without any additional cost.)
Piersdrach
Is Karma that big of an issue for groups?
Ol' Scratch
I dunno, is giving up advancing your character in exchange for throwing it around like candy a worthwhile investment for Karma?
chinagreenelvis
The highest rated sustaining focus would only cost 12 karma to bind. Unless you want to blow dozens of karma on one single god-like spell that will hold it's own against everything that comes against it (as well as advertise your presence to the entire world - hello, notoriety score), I'd say a force 6 sustaining focus is a far better deal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but can you not use a sustaining focus to hold a spell on an area, object, or other person? I'm under the impression that you can.
chinagreenelvis
QUOTE (Piersdrach @ Jul 6 2010, 05:26 PM) *
Is Karma that big of an issue for groups?


Generally, for each mission, we get rewarded about seven karma each - maximum. We only game once a week, and each run generally takes three or more game sessions to make it through. So unless you're playing Shadowrun several days a week, Karma is precious.

Not only that, but if you're getting enough Karma on a regular basis to justify spending it on sustaining spells (which is already clearly a risky investment), then your public awareness score is probably off the goddang charts!
Yerameyahu
I don't mind having non-optimal choices, though. I think that people are right, there are people who would pay costs similar to high-grade cyber/bio for equivalent effects. It's not a huge part of the economy, no, and streetwise (read: metagaming) runners wouldn't be the ones to buy (or, probably, sell).

Karma *is* pretty precious, and I feel like that's the norm. If a group is playing 'high karma', that's a special thing and a group decision.
KarmaInferno
Karma spent on quickening spells is karma not being used to advance your character.

Some people find that important.

My cybermage just keeps a force 1 Sustaining Focus for his Combat Sense. If it goes down it goes down, he'll just recast it later.




-karma
Ol' Scratch
Yeah, it works fine for legal characters. The only type of things they have to worry about are background counts, the occasional bored spirit, or wards they don't have permission to bypass. But if they have the cash to throw around for a spell or two, they have all those things covered through magical security and bodyguards anyway.

My personal view, though, is that if rules are thrown out there with the intention that players have access to them, they should at least be viable for the players' characters. There's plenty of things that are far more viable for legitimate characters to gain access to as appropriate that don't have associated rules because of how unlikely or outright absurd it would be in a player character's hands. And that sort of thing is perfectly fine. But when you throw something like Quickening out there and present it as a worthwhile metamagic for a shadowrunning character, it should be a worthwhile metamagic fo ra shadowrunning character. Quickening isn't.
chinagreenelvis
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jul 6 2010, 05:54 PM) *
Yeah, it works fine for legal characters. The only type of things they have to worry about is background counts, the occasional bored spirit, or wards they don't have permission to bypass. But if they have the cash to throw around for a spell or two, they have all those things covered through magical security and bodyguards anyway.

My personal view, though, is that if rules are thrown out there with the intention that players have access to them, they should at least be viable for the players' characters. There's plenty of things that are far more viable for legitimate characters to gain access to as appropriate that don't have associated rules because of how unlikely or outright absurd it would be in a player character's hands. And that sort of thing is perfectly fine. But when you throw something like Quickening out there and present it as a worthwhile metamagic for a shadowrunning character, it should be a worthwhile metamagic fo ra shadowrunning character. Quickening isn't.


I think it would be, if one or more of the following were true:

* Karma cost was dropped to something like 1 karma for every 2 points of force, or 2 karma for every 3 force
* The quickened spells could be turned off and turned back on again at no cost (apart from drain)
* Karma was eliminated from the equation and replaced by something like massive physical drain
* Dispelling the quickened spell or losing to a mana barrier would result in a temporary drop in the spell (sunrise/sunset) and permanently removing the spell would take some kind of super-high threshold extended test
Whipstitch
QUOTE
I'd say a force 6 sustaining focus is a far better deal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but can you not use a sustaining focus to hold a spell on an area, object, or other person? I'm under the impression that you can.


Sustaining Foci are limited by type, cost nuyen and even then your total foci will be limited by your Logic attribute, and logic isn't a primary attribute for many traditions. So, yeah, I'd say there's a niche available for limited use of quickened spells even if it isn't always optimal long term. Ultimately, I use Karma so my character is more effective on runs rather than think of advancement as an end in and of itself, so if I can get enough out of a quickened spell before it goes I don't really see much point in worrying about it. And while I agree that it's not a great metamagic for criminals, it -is- a good metamagic for "legitimate" NPCs.
Ol' Scratch
The second option, with the addendum that the person the spell is quickened to has to suffer drain when it's reactivated (maybe with a bonus equal to any extra Karma spent beyond the base price), would work wonders for making it a good metamagic technique. Sustaining foci would still be cheaper, easier, and more versatile, but quickening would allow for things a sustaining foci wouldn't in addition to the potential bonus drain resistance dice. It'd be a hard choice in a lot of cases, and hard choices are a sign of good game design.
Ascalaphus
I think Quickening certainly has its uses. You can use it to sustain a large number of low-force spells, for which multiple sustaining foci would be insane. Also, enchanting locations can be useful; that's less likely to run into Wards, after all.
chinagreenelvis
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jul 6 2010, 06:20 PM) *
The second option, with the addendum that the person the spell is quickened to has to suffer drain when it's reactivated (maybe with a bonus equal to any extra Karma spent beyond the base price), would work wonders for making it a good metamagic technique. Sustaining foci would still be cheaper, easier, and more versatile, but quickening would allow for things a sustaining foci wouldn't in addition to the potential bonus drain resistance dice. It'd be a hard choice in a lot of cases, and hard choices are a sign of good game design.


I think that combined with requiring an extended test to permanently dispell it would make the karma cost worthwhile.
Piersdrach
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jul 6 2010, 01:34 PM) *
I dunno, is giving up advancing your character in exchange for throwing it around like candy a worthwhile investment for Karma?

I dunno is there a limit to the amount of Karma your character will receive?

I dunno is giving up a little karma going to throw you far behind the optimal curve?

If I use Quickening on combat sense and it lasts for only 2-3 encounters, I survive because of combat sense, but the other mage hordes his karma and dies... Sounds like a worthwhile investment to me.
chinagreenelvis
Okay, here's where I stand currently:

I'm beginning to think that the karma cost for quickening spells would be worthwhile, provided at least one of two things, probably both, were put into the house rules:

1. The spell could be deactivated and reactivated at no extra cost other than drain equal to the force of the spell (perhaps with the dice pool modifier equal to the amount of "extra" karma that was spent when creating it).

2. A single success test against the spell (whether through counterspelling or a barrier test fail) would result in a temporary drop in the spell equal for a number of hours (or maybe even days) equal to the net hits on the dice roll and permanently defeating the spell would require some kind of high-threshold extended test. Something akin to [Counterspelling + Magic (Force x 3, 1 Day)]
Yerameyahu
There is a limit to the karma you receive per time, yes.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jul 6 2010, 10:54 AM) *
Yeah, it works fine for legal characters. The only type of things they have to worry about are background counts, the occasional bored spirit, or wards they don't have permission to bypass. But if they have the cash to throw around for a spell or two, they have all those things covered through magical security and bodyguards anyway.

My personal view, though, is that if rules are thrown out there with the intention that players have access to them, they should at least be viable for the players' characters. There's plenty of things that are far more viable for legitimate characters to gain access to as appropriate that don't have associated rules because of how unlikely or outright absurd it would be in a player character's hands. And that sort of thing is perfectly fine. But when you throw something like Quickening out there and present it as a worthwhile metamagic for a shadowrunning character, it should be a worthwhile metamagic fo ra shadowrunning character. Quickening isn't.


Though having 2 other metamagic will help in this regard... Masking and Extended Masking work wonders for keeping the obvious from being obvious, and you can attune to wards (which would include your own spells that are up and masked by extended Masking, or Sustaining Foci that are performing the same function... At least I would let that pass, as it is in keeping with the 2 terchniques described) so that you may pass through them without interruption or alert... Quickening is Useful for runners, just not as a 1st Metamagic... more like your 4th or 5th one in my opinion.

Keep the Faith
Adarael
Some things that make it worthwhile:

1) Masking or Extended Masking, depending on your edition. Not only can you phase through wards without trashing your spells, you can hide said spells from observers.
2) It's a stepping stone to tattoo magic. Now when your quickened spells get trashed, they regenerate. Pretty awesome.
3) Having a ton of foci will result in focus addiction. I do not believe quickened spells count toward this limit.
TommyTwoToes
QUOTE (Adarael @ Jul 6 2010, 02:58 PM) *
2) It's a stepping stone to tattoo magic. Now when your quickened spells get trashed, they regenerate. Pretty awesome.

?? ohplease.gif
Yerameyahu
Ha, I'd allow Quickening Addiction, though. You have to stave it off by decapitating people with Quickened spells.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Adarael @ Jul 6 2010, 01:58 PM) *
Some things that make it worthwhile:

1) Masking or Extended Masking, depending on your edition. Not only can you phase through wards without trashing your spells, you can hide said spells from observers.

Which is only worthwhile if your Grade is high enough to do the job (assuming you have other foci or effects you need to mask, too). Since you'd have to be at least Grade 2 and more likely Grade 3 in order to have all three metamagics, it's not that big of a deal. But then again, you have to be at least Grade 2 or 3 in the first place. That's a bit of a Karma sink in and of itself. Especially compared to everything else you're passing up just to be able to do what a sustaining focus can do with ease.

QUOTE
2) It's a stepping stone to tattoo magic. Now when your quickened spells get trashed, they regenerate. Pretty awesome.

Come again?

QUOTE
3) Having a ton of foci will result in focus addiction. I do not believe quickened spells count toward this limit.

Why would you have a ton of foci or a ton of quickened spells to begin with?
chinagreenelvis
My GM had some interesting ideas on what interesting things you could do with quickened spells...

QUOTE
For something like Increase Reflexes, it's worth its weight in gold. Like having the cyber/bio/adept power, but without having to pay essence.

Oxygenate would be a great one. Never having to worry about breathing again, barring a vaccuum. How about Detect Enemies? Stealth? Armor? Prophylaxis?

Or, if you really want to get stupid-- Magic Fingers has Duration S. So make your mage have a permanent pair of invisible telekinetic hands that can reach out and grab/manipulate anything he can see while being relatively undetectable to anybody else except other mages.

Levitate, so you're always just a LITTLE bit airborne--maybe not enough to notice most of the time, but you can control your own altitude at will. That might be just a little useful in the odd combat situation, or in combination with something like stealth, invisibility or hush to make yourself a mage-ninja.

Use it with Mana Barrier or Physical Barrier as part of a security scheme, to keep people out of a room or protect some kind of magical artifact.

How about with illusion spells like Entertainment or Trid Entertainment? This might have to be a GM call, but it looks to me like you'd be surrounded by a perpetual field of illusion--you dream it up and your permanent magical effect can make it real around you. Your clothes can change colors and shapes and fittings before people's eyes, your face and features and biometrics might shift and warp like a carnival mirror, and you might have a pet dragon sitting on your shoulder, which might become a pet faerie, a parrot, a small elephant, a gryphon, a miniaturized japanese schoolgirl or your favorite manga character sitting on that same shoulder from one second to the next.

Yerameyahu
Well, obviously you'd want basically dozens of spells quickened if it were possible. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 6 2010, 12:35 PM) *
Well, obviously you'd want basically dozens of spells quickened if it were possible. smile.gif


Karma not being an Issue, Who wouldn't? wobble.gif

Keep the Faith
Ol' Scratch
Well, with both you and the spirit limited to sitting there, what exactly would be the point? Especially considering how easy it is to summon in the first place.
Yerameyahu
Right. It's like saying 'there are many good cyber options'.

Basically, I feel like the problem is that no one wants to spend karma (possibly lots) on something that can (possibly without much difficulty) be destroyed. Permanent loss of karma should be harder than that. Money, sure, people understand that gear can break or be stolen; even then, dropping cash on drones that get mangled is pretty painful. biggrin.gif
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