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CanRay
How does your crew ensure that the Johnson that just hired you isn't tracking you through the nuyen.gif (s)he just paid you?

Black Bank Accounts? Legitimate Businesses? Purchases of easily pawned goods? Only taking payments in solid cash/bearer bonds?
Yerameyahu
Unwired, p93: Numbered credit accounts, Escrow services, One-time Disposable credit accounts…
CanRay
That's what the rules suggest. What other options have the groups come up with?
Yerameyahu
Ah, sorry. smile.gif I feel like that pretty much covers it, though.
CanRay
More than that is available.
Yerameyahu
No doubt. I was just giving my two cents. smile.gif
kzt
We ignore it, as the entire setting explodes when you look and think deeply about banking in SR.
Yerameyahu
Heh, that's kind of the case with everything in the setting, really.
hermit
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 11 2010, 05:25 AM) *
How does your crew ensure that the Johnson that just hired you isn't tracking you through the nuyen.gif (s)he just paid you?

Black Bank Accounts? Legitimate Businesses? Purchases of easily pawned goods? Only taking payments in solid cash/bearer bonds?

Taking the money out of the system and reintroducing it. Being paid in Checksticks, exchanging them for goods, and selling the goods someplace else (BTLs, diamonds, applicances).

the trick is to take the money out of the system for some time, that kills the data trail.
Xahn Borealis
And nuyen isn't the only payment around. Everyone has stuff they want to spend money on, but that takes time too (Availability rolls). What if Johnson can come up with the goods himself? And obviously you scrub that drek to within a inch of it's life with tag erasers and whatnot.
hermit
I'd not trust the Johnson with goods. Nuyen is less easy to tag. But I'd exchange nuyen for goods soon after J gives them to me.
Xahn Borealis
I remember reading somewhere that one of the best things, besides currency, for Johnson to pay with, something everyone can use, information. Info on the prison your brother's being kept in, the Matrix address of a black node (as in secrecy as well as IC), the secret password to get you in that nightclub. Tbh, there's no payment option available that doesn't have SOME downside, as far I can see.
hermit
Information requires a hell of a lot more trust into the Johnson's relative honesty than certified cred, though.
Daylen
Only take payment in gold, silver and copper coins.
AStarshipforAnts
Gold Doubloons or livestock.
hermit
Uncut blood diamonds? And lose the payment fast when the run is over, so when Johnson tracks it down magically they find someone else.
LurkerOutThere
Payment held in escrow and laundered by such service per the terms of the original contract.

Daylen
QUOTE (AStarshipforAnts @ Jul 11 2010, 04:12 PM) *
Gold Doubloons or livestock.

I like it!

Johnson: how much will it cost to have subject A have a serious but not fatal accident?

Face: well all things considered I don't think my team can do this for less than 1000 head of goat and 2000 llamas.

Johnson:starts punching numbers on his credstick then stops and looks up wait...what?!
MortVent
Had a hacker that worked for source code. In time he had quite a collection of source code software that he would burn to chip and sell blackmarket.

Sure it was little programs and such, but sell a dozen rating 4 OS (system/firewall) programs.. and that's not bad money for the cost of a few chips
Yerameyahu
I dunno if there's rules for selling duplicate pirated warez. It's kind of infinite money, after all.
MortVent
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 11 2010, 06:14 PM) *
I dunno if there's rules for selling duplicate pirated warez. It's kind of infinite money, after all.


Well that was just it, he got the source code... on a limited use chip. Each copy he made, set the counter on the chip up one.

So a 5k run.. he might get a 1k credstick at the start and a 5 use chip at the completion

hermit
Fencing rules, applied to pirated warez.

However, that would piss off the mob real soon.
D2F
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 11 2010, 04:57 AM) *
That's what the rules suggest. What other options have the groups come up with?


Hawala systems.
Saint Sithney
As many vindictive characters as I see floating around, I think there would be a definitive lack of Johnsons on the scene it they were constantly trying snoopy bullshit like keeping tabs on fairly-earned cred. "Dear Shadowland, this guy is a creep who tried to track me through the cred he paid me. Slot him before you trust him."

Besides, with no real government oversight and all, it's super easy to launder money through a couple of pawn shops. You buy a widget from pawn shop 1 and sell it to pawn shop two for 10% less than you purchased it. Pawn shop one then buys it back for 5% less than what you paid in the first place. Each shop gets their 5%, and you get shiny new cred.
kzt
You take your cash, split in two.

You go into the Casino, and walk up to the roulette table. Joe bets his on red, Lisa bets hers on black. Winning go into your pocket. 10 spins later you go cash out your winnings, in nice clean cash.
nezumi
I imagine that the money entering and leaving a casino is better watched than just about any other, with every chip having its own encoded serial number and history. It's cheap to implement, and given the money we're talking about, more security is better than less. However, you're also paying the mob for a service, so unless your Johnson is especially close to whichever mob you're working with, it should still be successful.
Snow_Fox
Certified credit sticks-yeah they're old fashioned but still valid, heck so's real money. or corporate script. I know the chip in the certified sticks can be tracked but it can all be changed over very quickly to a new format. As much as paranoia makes you want to track every bill/note/stick the truth is it's just too much and passes too quickly and if you miss just one trade off in following, the thread goes cold fast.

Also once it is out of the corporate enviorment, the others are not going to co-operate. For example you're paid in a stick by Horizon. Great, but you then use it in a store not owned by Horizon but Mitsuhama. The nice people at MCT are not going to be sharing their records with Horizon. So you buy that nice stick of gum with a nuyen.gif 1,000 certified stick and don't mind that the hcange is not in certified form, but the store is not sharing to whom it made the exchange.

This is how you clear conterfit money too.

If you want details on money laundering, I can really get rolling. I'm a licenced financial advisor so I'm required to keep up on what to look for in laundering. Usually most people laundering money accept a 20% loss to clear the trail as the price of doing business.
EuroShadow
QUOTE (kzt @ Jul 12 2010, 08:44 AM) *
You take your cash, split in two.

You go into the Casino, and walk up to the roulette table. Joe bets his on red, Lisa bets hers on black. Winning go into your pocket. 10 spins later you go cash out your winnings, in nice clean cash.


btw, very cool idea smile.gif

We agreed with our group, that their fixers have helped initially to establish simple smooth link - several accounts, shadow/off-shore banks - and they get their money clean enough. As long as they do not try to buy something lgally for tens of thousands, that is.
kzt
QUOTE (EuroShadow @ Jul 12 2010, 10:22 AM) *
btw, very cool idea smile.gif

It comes from Abbie Hoffman's "Steal This Book" grinbig.gif
Daddy's Little Ninja
Even if they are at the same table that means they are suffering a 50% loss on money laundering. That is pretty high.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Jul 16 2010, 05:57 PM) *
Even if they are at the same table that means they are suffering a 50% loss on money laundering. That is pretty high.


Not so. The roulette tables can easily be fixed, or you can try your hand at a card game where they can better control the win/loss ratio. As long as nobody complains to the local gaming commission (if we're talking an ACTUAL casino), then none the wiser. Ones who need the cash laundered can be given 'suggestions' on which table to try so the transfer is facilitated efficiently.

MortVent
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Jul 16 2010, 12:57 PM) *
Even if they are at the same table that means they are suffering a 50% loss on money laundering. That is pretty high.


actually depending on the house cut on winnings it's breaking even.

red/black can be a 2 to 1 odds, meaning you double your money in effect breaking even

Say you take 10k and split it to 5k on each

On a win the payout is 10k exactly what you wanted to launder
Whiskey
Johnsons don't burn their runners unless the runners are in the habit of making themselves undeniable assets. If that notoriety is rising a bit high, I would look at what you did wrong and fix it. Now if said Johnson is in trouble... it could come down on you too.

@kzt And then the roulette comes up O or OO... oops. 0 and 00 are neither red or black.
D2F
QUOTE (Whiskey @ Jul 16 2010, 06:19 PM) *
Johnsons don't burn their runners unless the runners are in the habit of making themselves undeniable assets. If that notoriety is rising a bit high, I would look at what you did wrong and fix it. Now if said Johnson is in trouble... it could come down on you too.

@kzt And then the roulette comes up O or OO... oops. 0 and 00 are neither red or black.

That's why you don't bet all your money at once.
kzt
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Jul 16 2010, 10:57 AM) *
Even if they are at the same table that means they are suffering a 50% loss on money laundering. That is pretty high.

Red/Black split means you get back your bet except on a 0 or 00 iirc. It's a lower overhead than the mob charges. Modern days it's harder to do this, since the IRS can and does inspect the records at the Venetian and the US doesn't allow embassies to run public casinos.
Saint Sithney
What about native casinos?
kzt
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jul 16 2010, 07:58 PM) *
What about native casinos?

Feds still have jurisdiction. FBI is the lead in murders on the Rez, etc.
AngelisStorm
Have to obey federal laws (and random state laws).
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (kzt @ Jul 16 2010, 08:50 PM) *
Red/Black split means you get back your bet except on a 0 or 00 iirc. It's a lower overhead than the mob charges. Modern days it's harder to do this, since the IRS can and does inspect the records at the Venetian and the US doesn't allow embassies to run public casinos.

Usually about 20% is considered an acceptable loss, the cost of doing business in money laundering

a great deal of money laundering is done through financial investments. For example any deposit of $10k or over has to be reported, but a great many people try to may investments of $9,800 or $9,750 just under the threshhold, so now banks are required to report a series of such deposits as it points to a pattern. Like wise most investment companies in the US will not accpet money orders, certified checks under $10k since there is no history of the source, over that the people issuing the check/order have to do the due diligence.

The idea is put money in a mutual fund investment and then pull it out a little while later, 'what's the osurce of the income? a mutual fund investment, had it for years. Sure a really tithgt look can unravel it but the point is it a legit/laundered source.

The was around the safe guards is to have a tame banker/investment agent who doesn't ask questions baout the source of income. SO the government now makes it a crime to not report suspions.
CanRay
Damned Government! Sticking their nose into our business! nyahnyah.gif

I just realized... I wonder how many Shadowrunners are paid out of Stuffer Shack's "Planned Lost Revenue". I mean, even gangs can't steal that many Nuke-And-Serve Burrito Meal Replacements...
Shin
QUOTE (MortVent @ Jul 11 2010, 06:23 PM) *
Well that was just it, he got the source code... on a limited use chip. Each copy he made, set the counter on the chip up one.

So a 5k run.. he might get a 1k credstick at the start and a 5 use chip at the completion


Not to be all necro, or especially off topic, but once you get the data off the chip once, what stops you from cloning *that*? Limited access chips sound nice, but once the data is released into the wild, as it were, the chip has no mystical ability to keep it from being copied anymore.
Yerameyahu
Perhaps it has the Timer option built in, or something else. You could still crack it, but at least you'd have to.
Mayhem_2006
QUOTE (kzt @ Jul 12 2010, 07:44 AM) *
You take your cash, split in two.

You go into the Casino, and walk up to the roulette table. Joe bets his on red, Lisa bets hers on black. Winning go into your pocket. 10 spins later you go cash out your winnings, in nice clean cash.


Unless the wheel comes up Green... a 1/19 chance on a standard modern american wheel assuming it isn't fixed...

So if you do use this tactic, don't do it all in one go or you could lose your entire stack on an unlucky spin.

You could do it by dividing your pay up into 28 lots and betting on every number in one go. That way you lose a small fraction (3/38) of your cash, but at least thats a set amount.

However, a casino is going to look at you pretty damned suspiciously if you do that, as they don't want a public reputation as being complicit in money laundering.
Mongoose
QUOTE (kzt @ Jul 12 2010, 06:44 AM) *
You take your cash, split in two.

You go into the Casino, and walk up to the roulette table. Joe bets his on red, Lisa bets hers on black. Winning go into your pocket. 10 spins later you go cash out your winnings, in nice clean cash.


Why bother betting? Joe goes in, trades cash for chips. Joe gives chips to Lisa. Lisa cashes chips out, gushing about her luck and keeping 100% of the money- as opposed to the plan with the wheel, which looses you (on average) 1/19 of your cash.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Mongoose @ Oct 12 2010, 07:11 AM) *
Why bother betting? Joe goes in, trades cash for chips. Joe gives chips to Lisa. Lisa cashes chips out, gushing about her luck and keeping 100% of the money- as opposed to the plan with the wheel, which looses you (on average) 1/19 of your cash.

That makes more sense than sitting at the roulette table and risking it all on a couple of spins, but both would look like exactly what it was to any surveillance operatives. If you have good reason (or are sufficiently paranoid) to believe you're being actively watched then you need to do a proper acting job or they'll be waiting for you in the lobby.

Anyone seen the film croupier? Don't bother, it's rubbish, but in it Clive Owen sees Alex Kingston pull this trick and instantly knows what she's up to. The difference is that he knows the casino must be in on it and their cut, of course, is that 1/19.
Doc Chase
Could just buy $10,000 in lotto tickets from a 'reputable' vendor, and then win...


...$10,000, minus the nominal 'lottery tax' fee.
capt.pantsless
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 10 2010, 09:25 PM) *
How does your crew ensure that the Johnson that just hired you isn't tracking you through the nuyen.gif (s)he just paid you?

Black Bank Accounts? Legitimate Businesses? Purchases of easily pawned goods? Only taking payments in solid cash/bearer bonds?


I usually forgo spending any game-time dealing with financial administration - none of my players enjoy accounting, so we usually skip it. That said, I don't make them roleplay cleaning their guns afterwords either.

Besides, I'm usually assuming that Mr(s). Johnson is going to use relatively untraceable ways of transferring cash to the runners - otherwise someone else might be able to trace the cash and the runners become less deniable assets.
sabs
The way I view it, Money from Mr Johnson is transferred from Bank A to Bank B.

Bank B is under no obligation to tell Bank A, or anyone else which of their accounts the money went to.
This is why Shadowrunners use Caymen Banks, or small boutique private banks.

You can trace that the money went from Bank A to Bank B, but unless you want to seriously hack bank B, then you have no way of knowing which numbered account it went into.

And you know, they're numbered accounts. From there, they have the money siphoned off into normal bank accounts with SiNs attached to them.

BRodda
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 10 2010, 10:25 PM) *
How does your crew ensure that the Johnson that just hired you isn't tracking you through the nuyen.gif (s)he just paid you?

Black Bank Accounts? Legitimate Businesses? Purchases of easily pawned goods? Only taking payments in solid cash/bearer bonds?


I tend to use Black Bank accounts.

Uncle Tony is the local mobster and he runs a Black Bank. He has an offshore account with a Black Banking Syndicate, one that has nominal Territoriality. He offers The typical commercial bank (car loans, SB loans, investment accounts, etc). The only difference is that you can get loans for things you can't get from a normal bank, you don't need a SIN and the loan interest is high and there is a withdrawal fee of 10%.

Snow_Fox
QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 12 2010, 10:25 AM) *
Bank B is under no obligation to tell Bank A, or anyone else which of their accounts the money went to.

Absolutely wrong. A bank is required to be able to verify the source of income under government programs in most western nations, in the USit is called CIP- customer identification program. Sure you can use off sure stuff but if bank B is in downtown Seattle and they get a weird transfer from a bank off shore in the Carrib or Chanel Islands for example they are required to do the due idlligence or report it under an SAR (suspicious activity report) to the federal government. I'm sure other nations would do the same thing.

Personally, RL I had an investor open an account for $10k with me. Their return address was Bermuda through an agent in NYC. So far so good, then they sent word they would be sending $1.5 million to the account. I notified our incoming wire dept about a large dollar transaction, our compliance dept contact me asking for more details on the Bermuda end of the deal. A polite call, really I was, to the NYC office was rebuffed with "I'm sorry we do not reveal information on our clients." I did the paper work, the account was flagged with as 34% penalty on any withdrawls and suddenly that 1.5 million did not arrive. ooops smile.gif Yeah I know I was creamed on the commission but this just screamed WRONG to me and I seem to have been proven out. You screw up something like that nad it's YOUR licence that's yanked.

The NY agents later called to ask me to give them an exception to the penalty, and per Federal guidlines that is a further red flag- a company asking for exmeptions for security protocols. I haven't heard form them in about 2 months.gee it seems my suspsions were justified.
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