I have this concept of a shape shifting mystic adept that i would like to optimize some. The concept is that of a NAN member, one of twins, who's brother was born a white eagle which is greatly worshiped in most Amerindian societies. However, the twin brother was born a black bird (crow, raven) which brings animosity toward him. To make a long story short, he's the family's dirty little secret and thus is shadow running while his brother is getting all the glory and respect.

Anyways, the notion i had was more of a gun adept but with spells to compliment his dark side. Such as shadow. He's fragile of sorts and i would like him to be a hit n run type of character, fly in, shoot em up, fly out. Here's what i got so far. I'm trying to stay at 750 karma, although i have an extra 50 after chargen to fill in some spaces if need be.


The basic question i have now is what your opinion is on the spells;I plan on using dual Ares Predator IV with axe blades attached to the under barrel, like a gunblade cept they would look like tomahawks for conceptual reasons. Couple that with two weapon fighting style, since full melee defense (parry) is reation+melee skill(5+weapon foci correct?)+combat sense. For range i would go full gymnastics dodge gym+reaction+combat sense+improv non-combat ability (adept power, it's really cheap for the extra +6 die).

As for my casting i was going to cast improv reflexes for the max +3 ip then use my sustaining focus for that, then over cast combat senses. Something like 10 or 12 (if i can) then my drain value would be 7 or 8, i'd roll to resist it and whatever i don't resist, at the end of the combat turn i can regen it since i'm a shape shifter. Since it's a sustaining spell, i'd get adept centering to take care of that penalty. The shadow spell i can cast and negate the effect (if i suffer from it as well) with heightened concentration.

I feel like i'm missing something in this build but i can't place my finger on it. I'm not even sure if i should even bother with the pistols and just go for melee, since i can fly in very fast, cover a lot of ground. I could even drop the pistol skills and get a few lower level stealth type skills... hmmm

I'm just going to leave this here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...853&hl=lion
tldr: dont use the shapeshifter character creation rules. Use the Shapechange(Raven) spell.

I considered that. But i really like the regeneration shapeshifters get. Not to mention the story elements

Nice concept, but there are few things incorrect.

You cant have improved ability 6. The bonus is capped at 1.5 x skill. With skill 4 max bonus you can get is 2, 3 if you raise skill to 6.
And max overcasting Force is capped at 2 x Magic used in spellcasting = 4.

Since you cant use Improved skill at 6, drop it to 2 and you have 1 free point of magic for either other powers or to spellcasting. If you put it to spellcasting your maximums for casting would be 3 safe and 6 overcast.

Thx, i fixed the build with the new improv ability lvl.

If he's playing 4e 20th Anniversary, he uses his full Magic attribute to determine where overcasting starts. He only has a few dice to roll to cast, but he keep all the other benefits of Magic 5.

My question is: how are you going to get the guns in with you? You don't get extradimensional storage when you Shift, do you? Your clothes just fall off, and you drop whatever you were holding.

I'd go with spellcasting & combat spells instead of guns.

Now I may be wrong from what I know of Shapeshifters but according to fluff, aren't they animals who can turn into humans? Therefore how is a Crow/Raven brother to an Eagle? They're completely different species. Along with I don't really know how you'd fly in, shoot then fly out because I'm also pretty sure your gear doesn't shapeshift with you.

Hmmm maybe that's the thing that I was missing. I assumed that I could keep my guns cause when I asked my gm bout armor and I get any, he said that I could get some, customized that is for a cost. So I figure if I could wear the same armor from normal to human form then my other stuff would come along. I'll have to confirm this once again with my gm. After all, it is magic

I'm debating now if I should go with touch based damage spells and a few range rather than guns. I just like options for continuous growth, I can increase my adept portion, or physical combat, or casting. I also like the simple action attacks.

Double

*IF* they are using the latest FAQ then he doesn't get to use his full Magic attribute towards spellcasting - only those points actually put towards Magic.

IF the FAQ is supposed to change rules (rather than clarifying them), then maybe... but that was a FAQ to a rule that existed in 4e, so there's a good chance it just got left in place when the 4e20a stuff got added.

That's two big "if"s: whether the FAQ is supposed to change rules, and whether that particular FAQ item has anything to do with "the latest".

(My personal advice is to ignore the FAQ until they get the 4e/4a stuff sorted out. Blatant contradiction of current rules isn't a FAQ answer, it's a rules change -- update, errata, whatever you want to call it. It's a change, not a clarification.)

- - -

Anyway. Going by either set of rules, I don't see any way for you to carry a gun.

Ya, I'm asking my gm bout the guns and all but in any case I think I'm going to go with the previous suggestion and do spell casting for damage. As for the magic, we have had the question come up a few times in our sessions and the gm rules that we roll using the amount of magic we have in the stat, not what we used split, so that's the 4e 20th Anniversary rules..... I'll have to change the build a bit.

I think you have some big missunderstanding on what shapeshifters in SR are, their not metahumans who can take an animal form, they are animals who can shapeshift into metahumans.

Right, who's to say he wasn't an egg from another nest? Or should ihave said a black eagle instead of crow/raven? I don't understand how my proposed idea of a character history is that large of a problem...

Unlike metahumans brothers, animal brothers cant really be from different species.

Actually, the FAQ is pretty clear about the topic as is the rulebook. The FAQ was written well after 4e20a was published which is why I said *if* the faq is being used. You can argue semantics of FAQ vs. errata all you want but it doesn't change the fact that the latest info released regarding the issue is in the FAQ.

Cool, sounds like you'll be stealthier and more effective (silent spellcasting vs. gunshots).

Regarding the magic ruling, IMHO it is 4e 20a rules to use the full magic stat for almost everything (not your casting dicepool), so your GM is doing that bit right.

That part of the FAQ isn't new and can savely be ignored as its directly contradicts the actual rules in the latest version of the rulebook.

well some species like the cuckoo lay their eggs in foreign nests. so the young cuckoo will essentially grow up with some eagle brothers and sisters...

I would say be aware that for a while your going to stick out like a sore thumb on the astral. If your going Karmagen then I would suggest a minimum of one initiation for masking. Also be aware of the limitations of regeneration. Called shots to the head or spine are not regeneratable and magic damage (including drain) is also not regeneratable.

I have a bear shifter in my group who can take alot of damage but he's the one in the drek if a spirt catches him from the astral side of the veil

Called shots to the head/spine are understandably unregenerable, and some magic damage, sure but how bout self inflicted physical damage? Say, from my over casting?

it's still drain damage. but NPC bloodmages could use the Sacrifice Metamagic, where you cut yourself and use the damage done to compensate drain. you can of course regenerate knife cuts..

I can see some people arguring with that point.


But doesnt matter to me blood mages are worth lots of money to everyone.

The FAQ was released just a couple months ago and the portion regarding mystic adepts was new.

Still doesn't make it RAW. There are numerous examples where the FAQ directly contradicts what is in the book, thereby invalidating it as being legitimate. One of them is even an example that uses the same rule to directly contradict an example in the book (that is, the two examples come to a different conclusion just through rule text interpretation).

If the intent is to change the rules for balance it is not an answer to a Frequently Asked Question, but a Rules Change which is the job of Errata.

Ok. How bout first aid or heal spell? If i over cast and take damage can i heal the damage with a 99cent first aid kit or a simple heal spell?

This is getting ridiculous. I don't care which one you use. The FAQ is newer. Which is why I have said multiple times *IF* you use the FAQ you have one set of rules, if you ignore the FAQ you have another set of rules. There is no universal law that invalidates the FAQ as legitimate just because it contradicts what was published previously - that is something *you* make up so you can justify ignoring the FAQ. Play however you want, but don't say the FAQ is invalid since it contradicts the rulebook unless you can show me a passage in the rulebook that it always takes precedence over anything not labeled "errata".

"New" doesn't mean anything when it's not official rules material.



When discussing RAW one cannot use the FAQ. Yes, his group may be going by the FAQ, maybe not. But in a rules debate the FAQ is nothing more than the freelancers' personal house rules.

This distinction is nothing more than *your* personal house rule that states "The published rulebook always takes precedence over the FAQ." Can you show me where in the rulebook that it says to ignore the FAQ? Can you show me a reference that states the FAQ is nothing more than a freelancers houserule (and is not edited or proofread before being released to the *official* website)?

To be fair can you produce a rule from any printed book stating the FAQ overides the book?


I'm still torn between listening to the FAQ or not in some ways its been handy in others it has caused more arguments and confusion. I think the FAQ was a good idea but beaten to death by contridictions before it could be tested and cleaned up.

thats not his house rule, books always take precedense over answers of a FAQ as its not FAQ:s place to change rules, thats what errata is for.
And arguing for the FAQ in this particular instance is totally inane, when that part of the corebook was spesifically changed to say what it says in the latest errata.

Before getting a reply from my gm on the weapons questions, i thought i'd just go with touch magic. Be the first naked amerindian "touching" people in that special, memorable kinda of way.



So i'll be in full defense most of the time, working my way in to touch range. If they even see me to begin with.Once in range, multi cast (decrease wilpower, death touch, death touch) and/or multi hit if more than 1 target in range.
For range defense i'll have combat sense+reaction+dodge (range spec) x2. For melee i'll have combat sense+reaction+unarmed x2. Magic defense is reaction+counterspelling (correct?).
In retaliation i'll have counterstrike which will add the net hits to my counter attach to even hit the target. Like riposte but adding the net hits. Setup if i have first IP, finishing move if need be. Multi strike and watchful guard as well.
Now i'm wondering if i should split my magic 3/3 or 2/3/1(for bioware or cyberware). If i go this route i could very easily become a face.

No more than anyone can produce a rule saying the errata overrides the the book.

Where is it stated that that is what errata is for and not the FAQ? Also, the errata page does reference the FAQ as a place of "rules questions, and more."

Oh for Pete's sakes... can you two drop the "FAQ vs RAW" argument, or move it to it's own thread? there's more posts of you two arguing than there are related to the topic, which is a rather complicated build.

It's not up to either of you which takes precedence, it's up the Player and his GM. so present both sides, agree to disagree, and walk away.

I recommend trimming your list:
- Elemental Aura
- Invisibility
- Heal
- a ranged attack (stunbolt, manabolt, stunball, manaball)
- Fashion

You will profit most from casting & sustaining just one spell at a time. So, out of combat you sustain Invisibility, and in combat you bust out the big guns and sustain Elemental Aura. That way you aren't spending your first four Complex Actions on buffs. Just one buff, and then you get on with the beat-down.


There's nothing wrong with Heightened Concentration, but I wouldn't buy both it and a Sustaining Focus.

Instead, consider:
- Improved Reflexes 2 (2.5 pp) +2 IPs, +2 Reflex
- Critical Strike 2 (0.5 pp) +2 DV to unarmed attacks

Having the Improved Reflexes "integral" means you get 3 IPs on the first round of combat, rather than needing to cast a spell as your ONLY action during the first round.


You can't have cyber or bioware. Well, you can have deltaware in your animal form only, but that's basically the same as "no".

Also:

- TAKE BINDING. I'd recommend Summoning 4 / Binding 4 to start. With your Charisma, you can get a lot of mileage out of Binding.

- Have a ranged attack. Stunbolt, manabolt, whatever. Honestly, it's such a small difference in drain between Death Touch and Manabolt, I'd just take Manabolt. My plan would be to cast Manabolt from a distance until they got into close combat with me, and then cast Elemental Aura (once), sustain it with my Focus, and punch them to death.

- You have Restricted Gear. That ought to allow you a Sustaining Focus 4 rather than 3. If you only take a force 3 Sustaining Focus, you get some Karma back.

- Fashion is an amazing spell for someone who suddenly finds himself in a strange place, completely naked. Ask if Sterilize or Makeover can remove blood from clothing. If either can, then take that spell, as having that + Fashion allow you to duck into an alley and come out looking totally innocent.

correct... and i already established which rules/faq we are using. Could use more optimization or correction comments, pls, thx

I'm actually looking for feedback on this topic as well. Only had the game two weeks, and shapechanging / mystic adepts are particularly complicated.

In regards to optimization, I'd personally go for the Improved Reflexes spell than the adept power, as it is a large chunk of PP getting it (you could instead put two magic back towards casting spells and have about the same chance of getting as many IPs). You do need a good sustaining focus, but its worth it IMO.

SR4a pag 178
Neither Stun nor Physical damage resulting from Drain can be healed by magical means such as sorcery or spirit powers.

From the FAQ

Can Physical Drain be healed by magic? What about Regeneration, adept powers, or mystical healing?

Damage from Drain cannot be healed by magical means including Healing spells or the Empathic Healing or Rapid Healing adept powers. Even the mystical healing optional rule (p.123, Augmentation) cannot add dice to Healing Tests to help with injuries including Drain.

Drain is considered magical damage, and is not subject to the Regeneration power.

The price you pay for spellcasting is drain and nothing but time can make you better.

Mmm. The trouble IMHO is that either you're lit up on the Astral (with a Sustaining Focus) or you're a sitting duck for your first combat round (if you don't cast until combat starts). Also, wards & barriers.

He has enough Karma to initiate two or three times, which will give him +2 pp and possibly +Masking or +Adept Centering... assuming he's allowed to Initiate during character creation. If not, well, there's where your first earned Karma can go.

The third way to get more IPs is to summon & bind a Spirit of Man (force 4 to 6) who casts & sustains Improved Reflexes for you. He can technically do this forever for the cost of one service, but if you try this your GM will be morally justified in throwing dice at you.

ever heard about this wonderful think called multicasting.

Not really, firstaid works wonders on kepping the make casting all day long

With a SIX DIE casting pool? You're misspelling "suicide".

how does a casting pool have anythink to do with character killing himself and there are these nifty super secret thinks called foci that i hear add to casting pools after the slitting

Apparently I don't speak Mäxglish.

What do you mean?

ok lets see;

My character will be part of a Doc Wagon. Such that, we normally get a call and bout 4min of travel time to the call, that's when i was planning on casting my sustained spells such as lightning reflexes (with rank 3 sustain focus) combat sense (with the 5 or 6 sustain focus that i got for restricted gear) and either invisibility or aura with adept centering depends if i need stealth or just go all out. According to the core book it says i can have up to my logic in activated foci... is that for all foci or just sustain foci? I'll have a weapon foci as well (hand wraps), does it count as an activated foci?

We reach the scene and i go flying in, locating the client then either neutralize the threat near him/her or just start the healing biz. This is where i was debating on either having shadow/mist or physical barrier. I like the idea of blinding everyone in my area, with my defense and a -6 to visibility i would be pretty safe naked. I'll negate the effect with heightened concentration if i suffer from the effects myself (ask gm, waiting for reply).

As for spirits, i'll have to read up on it. I considered it, but didn't want to focus my character on it. I don't know the politics involved with spirits and a free spirit. I mean we have a free spirit in the team and he seems to be very anti magic, go figure. Dunno if they will be kos to one another or not.

I will have foci, casting, binding, counter spelling, etc etc. Most rank 3, all under 12 availability unless i get the restricted gear (again). I'll also have fetishe.... the benefits of having no need to buy weapons or armor and having a large tribal NAN connection/history.

What i can't get is why first aid would help with over casting yet nothing else can. No heal spell, no magical regen powers, no trauma damper, nothing.... doesn't make much sense to me. A mundane can shoot all day long with no threat. I'm not saying drain is not needed, i agree with the drain idea. But the healing should be allowed after the fact. I mean if i take physical damage from an over cast and i get my shadow run done and go home to rest with a doc there i can't do anything to increase the healing of the damage. Not talking bout lessening it, just healing it.

4 spellcasting + 2 magice = 6 dice

Split is 3/3

Force 3 Power Focus

Dice pools of 6/6

Force 3 spellcasting focus

Dice pools of 9/9

Spcialization

11/11

Mentor spirit

13/13

im asking how does a small cast pool spell suicide to you, i cant see any realtion between the two.
And foci doe wonders for your multicasting pool sizes as does mentor bonuses and spesialisations by the way.

Only one foci per test draco18, but you can get a force 5 spellcasting foci at chargen so thats only one die away from that pool.
With that foci and menor bonus and spec you can split that pool sixht ways and still have 10 dice in all of those pools.

the way i see it,
i win first IP
i'm in melee range
step 1
agility (5)+unarmed (touch spec 7)+weapon foci (2)+2 for touch attack only (core pg 148)=16 to see if i even touch them
lets say i hit with 4 net hits

multi cast (decrease attrib, death touch) all at force 3
step 2
roll spell damage magic (6)+spell casting (5 since decrease attrib is not my spec)+3 power foci=14 against the targets willpower (+counterspell if he/she has it)

step 3
say i roll 4 hits for step2, and the opponent has no counter spell rolling only with a willpower of 3 getting 1 hit. Means he get's -3 to will, thus he's "incapacitated" (core pg 200)

Step 4
roll for death touch damage. Magic (6)+spellcasting (7 with combat spell spec)+3power foci+2 mentor spirit= 18. Enemy has nothing to roll for defense.... so he explodes into a fine red mist ala Rorschach.

DRAIN TESTS
decrease attrib has (f/2)+1 drain, +1 for the second spell cast=resist 2
death touch has (f/2)-2, +1 for the second spell cast=not sure here, resist 1 i would guess



does this make sense..... i'm not 100% sure on the muticasting since it's only 1 target.

This section is slightly off. You're multicasting

Base:
Magic 6 + Spellcasting 5 = 11;

Dec Attrib:
Base 6 (half, round up*) + 3 Power Focus = 9

Death
Base 5 (half, round down*) + 3 Power Focus + 2 Specialization = 10

So two spells, 9 dice and 10 dice, versus Willpower+Counterspelling (per each spell).

*You split the pool and because you have a spec in the death touch domain, you might as well let Decrease Attribute have the extra die.