Dumpshock Forums > German Arsenal 2070 and BodyTech (Augmentation)

Ravennus

Jul 14 2010, 07:48 AM

I recently came across Raben-aas' DeviantArt page and some of the fantastic Shadowrun artwork he's done, particularly for Pegasus Games over in Germany. In glancing through his more recent work I got the impression that there is some new gear in their new adaptions of Arsenal and Augmentation.

You can check out his DeviantArt page here. Great stuff there!

Now there were a couple pictures he did, like this Ruhrmetall Minigun as well as the 'Mechanized' Milspec Assault Armor that I am VERY interested in. If anyone has the german books and could translate some of the new stuff, that would be awesome.

I understand that some players have a hate on for the extra german crunch (due to some past unbalanced shenanigans), but even Raben-aas points out that the new german SR publishers are trying not to go down that same road. With that in mind... well.... I love Shadowrun, and especially new Shadowrun CRUNCH! No matter what the language!

So translations on some of the fun new gear would be appreciated.

Uli

Jul 14 2010, 09:41 AM

I do not have my books here, but all the extra German stuff I've seen so far is not that extraordinairy. Especially the Saeder-Krupp Myrmidon Armor und the Balmung gatling gun. As far as I remember, the former is a heavy military armor with chemical sealing and some sensors in the helmet, while the latter is simply a medium machine gun gone gatling.

For more detailed informations please take a look at my hourly wage rates.

Tycho

Jul 14 2010, 11:53 AM

Importent is, that all the additional Stuff is approved by CGL and they have all the stuff (next to the whole SOX book Background Part, which was written in english), they just do not use it, or wait to put some pdf out. I think most of the guns and armor will be seen in War! und most of the cars will be in the 30 Rides pdf, allready mentioned.

Like Uli said:

The Balmung is like a MMG Gating

and the Myrmidon Armor is a Heavy MilSpec Armor with some Mods.

in Augmentation are no new things, only 3-4 new Cyberware Suites, but at leat we have an errata (where things like essence holes are fixed and the nano biomonitor is much better)

cya
Tycho

Sengir

Jul 14 2010, 12:08 PM

The extra stuff from Arsenal 2070 can be found in DK's chargen, some extra info which did not fit into the sheet is here. [/shameless_plug]

Prime Mover

Jul 14 2010, 02:03 PM

We were told along time ago we would probably see an translation of added items.
Were were also told we'd get an Augmentation errata many many moons ago.

Like DDH it's just Shadow Myth.

CanRay

Jul 14 2010, 02:33 PM

Weren't we told something about "Shadows of Latin America" as well?

MJBurrage

Jul 24 2010, 04:58 AM

Are either of these books available as PDFs ?

I poked around the Pegasus site, but could only find listingd for printed versions.

Udoshi

Jul 24 2010, 06:31 AM

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 14 2010, 06:08 AM)

The extra stuff from Arsenal 2070 can be found in DK's chargen, some extra info which did not fit into the sheet is here. [/shameless_plug]

Sadly, the link in the post you linked to has been removed from its hosting site. Anyone got a rehost?

But yeah. I noticed stuff being off in the character generator, too, and went 'wtf is this new gear? where did it come from?'

I'd love to see a list of the new stuff, too. particularly those cyberware suites.

Minchandre

Jul 24 2010, 06:56 AM

QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 14 2010, 08:33 AM)

Weren't we told something about "Shadows of Latin America" as well?

I seem to recall reading that SoLA was mostly done but will never, ever, ever see the light of day due to IP issues.

KCKitsune

Jul 24 2010, 08:48 AM

QUOTE (Tycho @ Jul 14 2010, 06:53 AM)

in Augmentation are no new things, only 3-4 new Cyberware Suites, but at leat we have an errata (where things like essence holes are fixed and the nano biomonitor is much better)

cya
Tycho

What is better about the German version of the nano biomonitor? If it is capacity, then damn why didn't they put that in the American version?

Ryu

Jul 24 2010, 10:42 AM

Added Synergy: Increase the rating of Nanosymbiotes, O-Cells, TCS and all other medical nanites by +1.

Stahlseele

Jul 24 2010, 11:40 AM

QUOTE (Minchandre @ Jul 24 2010, 08:56 AM)

I seem to recall reading that SoLA was mostly done but will never, ever, ever see the light of day due to IP issues.

SoLA has been mostly released for free to the community by the freelancers who were involved with writing the book.
Look around on dumpshock, it should be easy to find . .

Now HOLOSTREETS on the other hand . . yeah, no let's not go there ^^

Sengir

Jul 25 2010, 10:33 AM

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jul 24 2010, 07:31 AM)

Sadly, the link in the post you linked to has been removed from its hosting site. Anyone got a rehost?

That link was just the then-current version with the new stuff added to it, simply get the most recent version

PS: The list of changes from the Pegasus site:

QUOTE

Melee weapons:

* Athame
* Injection dagger
* Sword cane

Projectile weapons:

* payload tip

Firearms:

* AS-113o "Assassin"
* Enfield Merlin
* Zastava CZ49
* AK-127
* Altmayr SP
* Ruhrmetall R506 Balmung

Clothing and Armour:

* Anielski-Joop: reconquista Collektion
* dressCODE: CYBERPIRATE Collektion
* Rheingold: Aurora Collektion
* SK Myrmidon Military Armour

Survival Gear:

* Proteus Underwater Sled

This and That:

* (Inline Skates)/Powerboard

Fahrzeuge und Drohnen:

* BMW 2065 Mjöllnir (Racing Bike)
* BMW Trollhammer (Chopper)
* BMW RV430 (sedan)
* Eurocar President (limo)
* Mercedes IG310 Igel (ATV)
* Peugeot 11e ElectroCar (subcompact)
* Volkswagen Lingus (midsize car)
* Renault-Fiat 264 „Fattorina“ (delivery van)
* Scania VM 42 (cargo truck)
* Messerschmidt-Kawasaki Wandervogel (tilt-wing aircraft)
* Mercedes Multimog Greif (command vehicle)
* Mercedes PE Commando (secure delivery van)
* Ruhrmetall Wolf II (APC)
* Jena Robotnik Cyclone (spy microdrone)
* Renraku Shrew (spy minidrone, disassemblable)
* Ruhrmetall Wolfsspinne (arachnid walker drone)

PPS: The German Augmentation also introduced the rule that the essence cost reduction from cybersuites is added to other multipliers, not multiplied (the cost reduction is treated normally, on the other hand)...just pretend it doesn't exist

Stahlseele

Jul 25 2010, 12:15 PM

And no, the Power-Board is, sadly, NOT a Hover-Board with miniature-jets on it . .
Just a usual run of the mill motorized skateboard . . Think Turtle-Power here.

Demonseed Elite

Jul 25 2010, 12:31 PM

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 24 2010, 07:40 AM)

SoLA has been mostly released for free to the community by the freelancers who were involved with writing the book.
Look around on dumpshock, it should be easy to find . .

*points down to his signature*

Stahlseele

Jul 25 2010, 01:07 PM

*points at DE's signature too*
There you have it folks, one of the Masterminds behind SoLA has spoken and once again, pointed us in the right direction ^^

Mäx

Jul 25 2010, 03:15 PM

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 25 2010, 01:33 PM)

PPS: The German Augmentation also introduced the rule that the essence cost reduction from cybersuites is added to other multipliers, not multiplied (the cost reduction is treated normally, on the other hand)...just pretend it doesn't exist

So german version has errata included in it, addition is how those reduction are supposed to be handled, augmentation errata should make that clear, if we ever get it.

MJBurrage

Jul 25 2010, 04:29 PM

So is it possible to buy a PDF of Arsenal 2070 ?

Sengir

Jul 25 2010, 09:33 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 25 2010, 03:15 PM)

So german version has errata included in it, addition is how those reduction are supposed to be handled, augmentation errata should make that clear, if we ever get it.

Nah, they should just revert this silly inconsistency. Why should the essence reduction of suites be added up if all other essence and cost modifiers are multipliers, including the Nuyen cost of suites?

And no, Pegasus does not do pdf releases.

Tycho

Jul 25 2010, 10:17 PM

there are no German pdfs, only print products.

So it is not possible to buy a Arsenal 2070 pdf.

cya
Tycho

Mäx

Jul 26 2010, 05:28 AM

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 26 2010, 12:33 AM)

Nah, they should just revert this silly inconsistency. Why should the essence reduction of suites be added up if all other essence and cost modifiers are multipliers, including the Nuyen cost of suites?

You missunderstood me(my fault) all cost reductions are supposed to be added together not multiplied.

Sengir

Jul 26 2010, 09:42 AM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 26 2010, 05:28 AM)

You missunderstood me(my fault) all cost reductions are supposed to be added together not multiplied.

I'm afraid that's not how math works, young Padawan. Getting 50% off something which is already sold at half the original price means you pay 25% of the original price, not 0.

And seriously, I don't get the rationale behind this change. Are cybersuites so unpopular that the minor essence reduction is worth the crappy math? Just for comparison, the SK Cyberlogician in Augmentation:

CODE

Standard Civilian Version (alphaware)    1.98 Essence  186,480¥
Deluxe Civilian Version (betaware)       1.73 Essence  372,960¥
Standard Military Version (alphaware)    2.48 Essence  305,730¥
Deluxe Military Version (betaware)       2.17 Essence  611,460¥

...and in Bodytech

CODE

Standard Civilian Version (alphaware)    1.93 Essence  186,480¥
Deluxe Civilian Version (betaware)       1.65 Essence  372,960¥
Standard Military Version (alphaware)    2.42 Essence  305,730¥
Deluxe Military Version (betaware)       2.07 Essence  611,460¥

Mäx

Jul 26 2010, 11:27 AM

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 26 2010, 11:42 AM)

I'm afraid that's not how math works, young Padawan. Getting 50% off something which is already sold at half the original price means you pay 25% of the original price, not 0.

That might be, but that doesn't change the fact that essence reductions are supposed to be handelt by adding up the different redution before redusing them from the original cost, Augmentation errata should make that clear if we ever get it, as well a correct the costs of all suites.

Also none of the suites in Aug cost that much essence, the real difference gomes when you get somethink like alphaware wired reflexes 3 in a suite and you have taken adaptsin treatment and have biocompatipility quality for cyberware.
Thats 5*0,8'0,9*0,9*0,9=2,916 if done as multiples
and
5*0,5=2,5 if adding the multipliers together first as it was ment ot be done.
thats nearly half a point of essence difference in cost.

Sengir

Jul 26 2010, 02:00 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 26 2010, 12:27 PM)

That might be, but that doesn't change the fact that essence reductions are supposed to be handelt by adding up the different redution before redusing them from the original cost

...and you got this info from where? Except for suites, and even then only for essence costs, there is no rule which says "add up the cost multipliers". And the example for used alphaware uses correct math both in the German and English versions.

Mäx

Jul 26 2010, 02:02 PM

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 26 2010, 04:00 PM)

...and you got this info from where? Except for suites, and even then only for essence costs, there is no rule which says "add up the cost multipliers". And the example for used alphaware uses correct math both in the German and English versions.

Synner and other developers/writers.
And that second-hand alphaware is the biggest reason that this change is nessecary, its totally bongers that you get implants that cost less essence on same nuyen prise bys gettin used alpha instead of new standart.

Sengir

Jul 26 2010, 02:29 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 26 2010, 03:02 PM)

Synner and other developers/writers.

...obviously dropped the idea, otherwise it would be reflected in Bodytech like all other errata

QUOTE

And that second-hand alphaware is the biggest reason that this change is nessecary, its totally bongers that you get implants that cost less essence on same nuyen prise bys gettin used alpha instead of new standart.

Only if you ignore the other problems of used ware.

Mäx

Jul 26 2010, 02:39 PM

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 26 2010, 04:29 PM)

Only if you ignore the other problems of used ware.

We'll see if we ever actually get that english errata

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 26 2010, 04:29 PM)

Only if you ignore the other problems of used ware.

There really aren't any.

Stahlseele

Jul 26 2010, 02:42 PM

And used alpha is STILL harder to spot than new standard grade right?

Mäx

Jul 26 2010, 05:11 PM

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 26 2010, 04:42 PM)

And used alpha is STILL harder to spot than new standard grade right?

And has better device rating.

Sengir

Jul 26 2010, 05:32 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 26 2010, 03:39 PM)

We'll see if we ever actually get that english errata

Who knows, maybe some day it will show up on wikileaks...

QUOTE

There really aren't any.

Not by the numbers, no. Thank god PnP games are more than just numbers

And if you just go by the numbers, using the German cybersuite rules doesn't change anything:
Essence costs: 100% + 20%(used) - 20%(alpha) = 100%
Nuyen costs: 100% * 0.5(used) * 2(alpha) = 100%

Since detection, device rating and availability are better than new standard ware, used alpha would still be strictly better.

Mäx

Jul 26 2010, 06:21 PM

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 26 2010, 07:32 PM)

And if you just go by the numbers, using the German cybersuite rules doesn't change anything:
Essence costs: 100% + 20%(used) - 20%(alpha) = 100%
Nuyen costs: 100% * 0.5(used) * 2(alpha) = 100%

Since detection, device rating and availability are better than new standard ware, used alpha would still be strictly better.

Yeah but all of those other thinks aren't nearly as bad as the cheaper essence cost, their mainly just icing on the cake.

Udoshi

Jul 26 2010, 10:54 PM

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 26 2010, 07:00 AM)

...and you got this info from where? Except for suites, and even then only for essence costs, there is no rule which says "add up the cost multipliers". And the example for used alphaware uses correct math both in the German and English versions.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=18445

Look for posts by Synner.

Anyone got the Unofficial Errata thread for Unwired bookmarked?

Cabral

Jul 27 2010, 04:21 AM

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jul 26 2010, 05:54 PM)

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=18445

Look for posts by Synner.

Anyone got the Unofficial Errata thread for Unwired bookmarked?

Thankfully I did not see any posts from Synner supporting this disrespectful treatment of multipliers. This is not an IMO; this is not 4th ed DnD; our brains are not mush and I have no desire to see this game dumbed down to the point that basic multiplication is a thing to be avoided. It's bad enough that Rigger 3 didn't use exponents.

QUOTE (Robert Heinlein)

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe and not make messes in the house.

While a bit caustic for my tastes, I agree with the sentiment that math is a basic human function and to go to such lengths to avoid it, does a disservice to everyone.

Mäx

Jul 27 2010, 06:48 AM

QUOTE (Cabral @ Jul 27 2010, 06:21 AM)

Thankfully I did not see any posts from Synner supporting this disrespectful treatment of multipliers.

Thats becouse he linked you to wrong thread, here's a correct link

Udoshi

Jul 27 2010, 12:57 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 26 2010, 11:48 PM)

Thats becouse he linked you to wrong thread, here's a correct link

Oh man, and the thread's just labeled 'augmentation'. No wonder i didn't find it with dumpshock's search function. Got any more of those bookmarks saved up, max?

Mäx

Jul 27 2010, 01:02 PM

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jul 27 2010, 02:57 PM)

Oh man, and the thread's just labeled 'augmentation'. No wonder i didn't find it with dumpshock's search function. Got any more of those bookmarks saved up, max?

I dont use bookmarks, i'm alone and at work and dont feel like working so i just used the search matching to Synners name and showing as post until i found that quoted in an other topic and then i just searched that quote more specifically.

Cabral

Jul 27 2010, 01:51 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 27 2010, 01:48 AM)

Thats becouse he linked you to wrong thread, here's a correct link

Well it looks like I am going to have to add "bad math" to the "Disallowed in Your Game" thread.

Sengir

Jul 27 2010, 02:10 PM

QUOTE (Cabral @ Jul 27 2010, 02:51 PM)

Well it looks like I am going to have to add "bad math" to the "Disallowed in Your Game" thread.

If that was supposed to be official errata the German book should include it. It doesn't. Could be an oversight, but I consider it far more likely that the idea of adding together multipliers was only a temporal madness and got dropped real quick.

Cabral

Jul 27 2010, 02:14 PM

One can only hope this never sees official print. The last time I mentioned the "writers can't do math trope", my wife looked like she was going to kill me.

Mäx

Jul 27 2010, 02:30 PM

QUOTE (Cabral @ Jul 27 2010, 04:14 PM)

One can only hope this never sees official print. The last time I mentioned the "writers can't do math trope", my wife looked like she was going to kill me.

Its really not about, not beign able to do math.
Addition is just much faster and produses "nicer" numbers.
And i really hope this sees the light in the aug errata or they remove the used alpha.
And also addition is how other comining of discounts in the game are handelt too, like the ones to iniation cost.

Sengir

Jul 27 2010, 02:46 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 27 2010, 03:30 PM)

Addition is just much faster

Right, because you get new cyberware every other minute or so...

QUOTE

and produses "nicer" numbers.

Nope, see the example above

QUOTE

And i really hope this sees the light in the aug errata or they remove the used alpha.

Because a whopping 4% essence reduction at the price of giving the GM a free ticket to screw you up are totally gamebreaking

Cabral

Jul 27 2010, 05:04 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 27 2010, 09:30 AM)

Its really not about, not beign able to do math.
Addition is just much faster and produses "nicer" numbers.

It's about multiplication is scarier than addition (determined the fact that the formula will actually be more complicated).

Cost x .8 x .8 is simpler than Cost x (1 - (1 - .8 ) - (1 - .8 )) or even Cost x (1 - .2 - .2), particularly if you are entering this into a spreadsheet or calculator.

Don't introduce more opportunity for mathematical mistakes; keep the math simple and clean.

Mäx

Jul 27 2010, 05:49 PM

QUOTE (Cabral @ Jul 27 2010, 07:04 PM)

It's about multiplication is scarier than addition (determined the fact that the formula will actually be more complicated).

Cost x .8 x .8 is simpler than Cost x (1 - (1 - .8 ) - (1 - .8 )) or even Cost x (1 - .2 - .2), particularly if you are entering this into a spreadsheet or calculator.

Cost*0,6 is even simpler.

Cabral

Jul 27 2010, 05:57 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 27 2010, 12:49 PM)

Cost*0,6 is even simpler.

Yes, if you're talking about betaware, otherwise you're skipping steps in your math. And Cost*.64 is equally simple.

Mäx

Jul 27 2010, 06:03 PM

QUOTE (Cabral @ Jul 27 2010, 07:57 PM)

Yes, if you're talking about betaware, otherwise you're skipping steps in your math. And Cost*.64 is equally simple.

Calcualting for example 10+10+20=40 is a whole lot faster to do in your head(well in mine atlest) then 1*0,9*0,9*0,8=0,648

KCKitsune

Jul 27 2010, 06:04 PM

I would like to know why a nano-biomonitor can't just take up capacity?

I mean you can have a nano-hive put in a cyberlimb, but you can't have a nano-biomonitor put in one? That was just dumb.

Sengir

Jul 27 2010, 07:56 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 27 2010, 06:03 PM)

Calcualting for example 10+10+20=40 is a whole lot faster to do in your head(well in mine atlest) then 1*0,9*0,9*0,8=0,648

Again, how often do you install new ware that those few seconds matter?