How does this work, exactly? Because I saw it mentioned in another thread, and apparently it's confusing to new players.

1 recoil per bullet fired (after the first bullet) in an Action Phase.

I gather that some people hate this, but there's an explanation here: http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml

It's the kickback a weapon suffers if more than one bullet is fired from the gun in an action phase. It is mitigated by Recoil Compensation of varying degrees (gas vents, gyro-mounts, personalized grips, and so on).

The general rule of thumb is recoil is calculated by (Total Bullets Fired)-1. In short, the first round is always free. With a gun that has no recoil compensation, the first bullet fired has the full attribute+linked skill roll. The next shot in the round will have one die subtracted due to recoil.

A 3-round burst has 2 points of recoil. A long burst has six (I believe it's a 7 round burst, yes?) A full burst has 9 (ten rounds).

Recoil comp subtracts recoil penalty . A weapon with 3 points of RC will remove 3 points of recoil.

Confusion comes in when people see if it's cumulative with the initiative pass, or the combat turn itself.

There. I edited it.

Is a 'combat round' an Action Phase?

Long burst is a 6 round burst.

Recoil compensation, strictly speaking, doesn't 'remove' recoil, it negates the penalty for that shot. In practice, it's the same difference.

Yes. So I use archaic terms.


So five points of recoil. I keep forgetting these small details, because none of my people ever use a bloody automatic.



Negate the penalty, remove the penalty. Eh.

Recoil is figured on an action phase by action phase basis, not combat round.



Also, Combat Round is not a term used in the book.

Combat Turn - Made up of multiple initiative passes.
Initiative Pass - Made up the Action Phases of each character in combat.
Action Phase - When an individual character acts.

No, an action phase is a single initiative pass for a person. Recoil is specifically per action phase not combat round.

I asked because Combat *Turn* is a current term, and very different from Action Phase.

Since I can see most of the debate in this thread is going to stem from my use of 'combat round', let's nip it in the bud by me asking you a pair of questions:

Are there multiple Initiative Passes in an Action Phase?

Is a new Action Phase declared after all combatants have used or deferred their Initiative Passes?


If the answer to both is yes, then my use of combat round has been interchangable with Action Phase, and we're arguing the same thing. If not, then I'll amend the post later and regardless I apologize for the confusion.

Action Phase is a single Pass: Free Action, 1 Complex (or 2 Simple); that is, everyone acting on this Pass gets an Action Phase.

Combat Turn is the whole shebang: everyone roll Initiative, everyone take all their Passes, etc.

Already answered it.

Edited to amend. Can you kindly move on? You people are worse than my ex-wife.

Psh. This is a very, very important distinction, especially when the terms are confusing. I think we were quite polite in helping you fix it.

Which is why you got the ex-wife gag instead of the 'GAWD STFU ALREADY I USE DIFFERENT TERMS OKAY' and assorted frothing at the mouth. More froth than a badly-poured beer; count your blessings.

And there was a smiley involved. Somewhere. Over there. About 500m away, just stand on the 'X' and look for it...

*readies the 121*

Indeed, considering if recoil built up over a combat turn. Oh boy.

4 IPs....

Long/Short -5/-8
Long/Short -13/-15
Long/Short -20/-22
Long/Short -27/-29

I have an ex-wife. A smiley doesn't begin to compensate.

Ha, StealthSigma, we'd see *lot* more Semi-Auto users!

I'll raise you one. Lucked out on the alimony, at least (but I wouldn't be surprised if one tries to hire runners to solve the custody issues)

Mea culpa on recoil. Like I said, my groups very rarely use automatics so I get fuzzy on the rules.

The confusion I had was mixing long and short bursts. I get that the first short burst is a -2, and the second is an additional -3, but what about if I want to fire a long burst (-5), then a short burst? That was the issue at hand.

-DrZaius

-3 for the short burst, so it's be -5/-8.

In the end, it's always (Total Bullets - 1).

Recoil = (Total Bullets-1) - Recoil Compensation.

Nuh uh! The recoil *penalty* on a given shot is your formula. The actual recoil is mine. ;P

Thbbbbbbbbpt.

*chortle chortle*

How many of those in a combat round?

I'm starting to think I should run from these boards before my lovely wife catches what your two had...


One free action each Initiative Pass. You could get in three per pass if you use your other actions to raspberry your pursuers from the back of a speeding vehicle.

Note that shotguns and heavy weapons like machineguns suffer -2 recoil penalty per point of UNCOMPENSATED recoil. So a machinegun modified to also fire BF firing a short burst would only require 2 pts of recoil compensation for its burst but if it had none it would be -4 to the shooting test.

Thank you fro the help. Distilled down, it seems to be:

Recoil Penalty = (Total Bullets Fired per Phase -1) - Recoil Compensation

where Recoil Penalty is doubled if using a Heavy Weapon, Shotgun, or other device so noted.

One final question: there is an optional rule somewhere in one of the splatbooks regarding strength and recoil, correct? where is this, and what does it do?

Arsenal page 163:
"A character with Strength of 6–9 has 1 point of recoil compensation, Strength 10–13 has 2 points, Strength 14–17 has 3 points, and Strength 18+ has 4 points."

awesome, thanks.

Since using Combat Round instead of Initiative Pass is a house rule I use, I can tell you that I do see more Semi-auto and short burst. I also see a lot more normal weapons instead of every weapon every runner being tweaked for every bit of Recoil Compensation possible. I guess in my Shadowrun world there are a lot of elite, illeagal, unemployed gunsmiths; so be it.

However, as I've mentioned a number of times before, as part of the houserule, I do allow a character a chance to basically reset the recoil mid-round if they want. In my games, a take aim action has one of two affects: First is the one in the book (+1 dice pool), but the second overwrites the first. A take aim action removes all recoil previously earned in the round when someone takes a moment to take aim; but they do not get the +1 dice pool when this is used.

Krav Maga means I'd be okay with that, Caadium. Otherwise, that's a huge change to the SR setting. :/

I suspect the Krav Maga quality that let's you take aim as a free action is pretty popular with your players?

My players helped me come up with the rule over 10 years ago. Its a change even the very fast gun-bunny players like. It came from the simple idea that if a gun shoots x bullets in a 3 second period it recoils y amount. How come if the same gun shoots x times 3 or 4 bullets in the same 3 second period it doesn't recoil more, but instead recoils y amount a few times. I was the one that said we'd still reset it every round; some people thought we should just let it build till someone took a moment to re-aim.

I'm fortunate that I play with friends that don't feel a need to try to break the system at every opportunity. This means that sometimes they bring things to me before I even see it. So, to answer your question, no Krav Magra isn't taken at all for that.

If your group likes it, great.

Personally, the actual rules work fine. Automatic fire *is* awesome. Yes, it's insane if you worry about the logic (same gun firing faster if your reflexes are faster?). Oh well, that's SR.

That was the part that made me go 'there's no WAY it would reset every Initiative Pass; you're allowing fully automatic fire in the form of seamless seperate bursts!'

You have to assume that all guns fire at least 40 rounds per 3 seconds to keep up with a Wires 3 person, yeah.

But, it's not like a burst from one pass carries over to the next. New burst, new target (even if it's the same person, you 'target' anew), new dice roll, after all.

Eh. An MP5K is capable of 15 rounds a second so it's doable, but all those gases have to go somewhere.

(And yes I know 'out the barrel' is somewhere)

Yeah, definitely doable, but it's just funny that Wires cause time compression (except for movement speed, thank god). But, this isn't a new observation.

I'll still shake my fist about it. Wired Reflexes should make Bullet Time, not Time Dilation.

(Oh that's right another Max Payne is coming out more bullet time hooray)

Lets see... 600 rounds/Minute... equates out to 10 Rounds/Second whcih equals 30 rounds/IP... not to shabby... pretty close to your 40 ROunds (Cyclic rate for an Assault Rifles varies from 500 - 800 Rounds per minute; so an average of 25 Rounds per IP to 40 Rounds per IP)...

Seems workable to me... with no actual assumptions needed, as the published cyclical rate for Assault Rifles falls into the range that you are looking for for a Wires 3 Person.

Just Sayin'

Yeah, like Doc Chase said, it's not unreasonable. It's just amusing that someone without Wires fires their gun slower… even though they're both just holding down the trigger for 3 seconds.

Believe me, having witnessed some very interesting individuals in the Marine Corps (who had difficulty in just learning the basics of weapon techniques without hurting themselves, let alone any advanced techniques), I would have to say that nothing would ever surprise me about People and Firearms...

It all about how it takes for them to aim, the wired guy can do that much faster, after all your not just pulling the rigger and shooting wildly.

No, I meant after the trigger is pulled back, when there's no more aiming and it's just a mechanical process. It's just a curiosity, don't worry about it.

I can't find any section in the BBB denoting how much of the simple action is aligning the weapon with the target and how much time is spent actually putting rounds down range. The 3, 6 or 10 rounds IMHO always take the same time, no matter how wired the shooter is. It just takes longer for the unaugmented one to get to pulling the trigger.

@Shotgun Recoil: Note that by RAW only uncompensated recoil in Burst Fire Mode is doubled. FA Shotguns FTW

Compare suppressive fire between an unaugmented character and a wired 3.

Suppressive fire really is "just holding down the trigger."

Just so we're clear:

Ingram Smartgun X (without folding stock) has BF/FA and 2 recoil compensation.

1st IP:

As a simple action, Character fires a short burst (3 bullets) at a target and suffers -2 recoil (3 bullets - 1). Recoil compensation takes care of it, no penalties.

As his second simple action, Character fires another short burst (+3 bullets) at a target. Because that is 6 bullets this pass, he suffers a -5 (6 - 1) recoil. Recoil compensation takes care of 2, character suffers -3 dice to his Agility + Automatics skill test.

2nd IP:

Same as the first.

Seems like you are in fact clear.

See, Draco18s, that's just illustrating the 'problem' (which, as I said, is just a curiosity that I've seen mentioned more than once).

Yes, biccat.