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Dreadlord
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jul 28 2010, 04:17 PM) *
Hm hm... I can even state for me: Even IF somewhere in the book it clearly, absolutly stated WITH EXAMPLE, that it does work, i will not allow that in my game with the words: But that is bullshit. Of course i see why people would want it to work and why rules HEAVILY imply it (I think the writers think it might work), but it just isn't really consistent. There is a hard line between the astral world and the physical one, and you have to obey the rules for transitions.

But ah well, as long as we all be fine with our rules, everything is good. (And to be honest: How often does that happen? You are astral (vulnerable, but can better see with astral than normal in a fight) and intent to use direct spells?)


I agree.

I want more of a hardline between the two, with no loopholes. A Manifesting astral projecting mage is just a reverse aura so he can't be targeted or used for targeting on the physical plane, astral perception requires a mage to be using either physical perception or astral perception but never both at the same time, and blind mages can only spellcast LOS mana spells at wholly astral targets until he gets some damn cyberso he can use LOS on the Physical Plane. Physical Touch spells are different, because you aren't using vision to create a "mystical link", but your sense of touch!

That is the way I will run my game, because it keeps it simple, uniform, and logical.
Surukai
QUOTE (Dreadlord @ Jul 29 2010, 04:17 PM) *
I agree.

I want more of a hardline between the two, with no loopholes. A Manifesting astral projecting mage is just a reverse aura so he can't be targeted or used for targeting on the physical plane, astral perception requires a mage to be using either physical perception or astral perception but never both at the same time, and blind mages can only spellcast LOS mana spells at wholly astral targets until he gets some damn cyberso he can use LOS on the Physical Plane. Physical Touch spells are different, because you aren't using vision to create a "mystical link", but your sense of touch!

That is the way I will run my game, because it keeps it simple, uniform, and logical.


Sounds good but the tricky question is stilll slightly unanswered.


I allow percieving mages to cast mana spells on non-astral targets they can see because their aura is there and they are active in the physical plane (Not projecting) and Invisibility is immunity to most stuff already so another counter to that is just a good thing. Even if it means blind mages can nuke people just as well (well, not indirects or type P los spells) they still can'tuse AR/VR and not having a working commlink is a big problem enough for a blind characters. Or does he think all mr. Johnssons will want to expose themselves in meatspace when they can hide behind an avatar online giving out their sensitive mission?
Traul
QUOTE (Surukai @ Jul 30 2010, 01:42 PM) *
Even if it means blind mages can nuke people just as well (well, not indirects or type P los spells) they still can'tuse AR/VR and not having a working commlink is a big problem enough for a blind characters. Or does he think all mr. Johnssons will want to expose themselves in meatspace when they can hide behind an avatar online giving out their sensitive mission?

That's not a big deal: they can go VR just fine if they drop astral perception.
Yerameyahu
Why can't a blind mage use AR or VR? Oh, Traul's answer… does that mean you're only talking about during Astral Perception?
Traul
Even if they can't see in VR (I would consider it is the case for the neurological blind), their reality filter can build them a suitable non-visual interface. There are already computers for the blind nowadays.
EndoFury
I don't see why this wouldn't work. It makes sense that an astrally projecting caster couldn't cast a direct spell, but an astrally perceiving caster should be able to.

Why? Well, when you view astral space, my assumption is that it's mapped over the real world like a spirit world. So, it's an alternative view of reality around you, but in a spiritual sense. You see auras of the living, traces of awakened energy, active foci, spirits, etc. From what I understand, nobody is "invisible" in the astral plane. The invisibility spell would stand out like a beacon and the invisible person's aura would be a huge target. It's not like the person's aura and the traces of the invisibility spell are not directly on top of where the person is in the physical world. Only when you astrally project can you travel around the astral plane while your physical body stays put. It's be like in the video games when you can detect life through walls and all that.

Like someone said, it's a nice way to make invisibility less than completely overpowered. You can't hide from the astral. Even people with Astral Chameleon only have traces fade away faster, but if they're near an astrally perceiving person, they will be seen.

One twist you could apply to this is that even though you can aquire LOS on a target via astral perceiving, perhaps you cannot see walls and so forth with that sense. For example, you can't see enemies beyond a room you're in so you astrally perceive in order to detect living things. You spot a target and it would qualify for LOS for a physical/direct spell in the real world, but the astral view of the target doesn't take the walls between you and the target into account. Basically, the target can ONLY be seen in the astral view and LOS is blocked in the pysical. I'd let the players cast anyway in this situation, but their spell would just hit the first obstruction between themselves and the target, being more of a pain in the butt than worthwhile.

However, in the OP's situation with a character that is invisible being targeted and LOS isn't blocked in the physical from anything other than that, I'd let the spell hit the target like normal.
Traul
QUOTE (Dreadlord @ Jul 29 2010, 05:17 PM) *
I agree.

I want more of a hardline between the two, with no loopholes. A Manifesting astral projecting mage is just a reverse aura so he can't be targeted or used for targeting on the physical plane, astral perception requires a mage to be using either physical perception or astral perception but never both at the same time, and blind mages can only spellcast LOS mana spells at wholly astral targets until he gets some damn cyberso he can use LOS on the Physical Plane. Physical Touch spells are different, because you aren't using vision to create a "mystical link", but your sense of touch!

That is the way I will run my game, because it keeps it simple, uniform, and logical.

And your players haven't come up with Deepweed grenades? Blast it on the mage, then shoot him while he cannot fight back.
jimbo
Okay...finally found pretty much all the pertinent info...

SR4A page 183. the last para (but not the paras for Area Spells and Casting Multiple Spells) for Step 3 "Choose the Target(s)" clearly spells out who can blast and be blasted.
Yerameyahu
We've *been* talking about that section, jimbo. smile.gif
Summerstorm
QUOTE (Traul @ Jul 31 2010, 12:27 AM) *
And your players haven't come up with Deepweed grenades? Blast it on the mage, then shoot him while he cannot fight back.

Oh come on... You want to force somebody into astral sight by fogging him with a crapload of pre-smoked weed (or kelp). Hoping he does inhale it over the next rounds and then further hoping he does not just explode you with a indirect spell, or lets his spirits kill you after it takes... which can be MINUTES? All while dodging manabolts (which can not be dodged)?

If there WERE a high-speed contact drug forcing people into astral perception (With no ability to use sight) Then yes... that would work against stunbolts. (In my game)

jimbo
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 31 2010, 08:58 PM) *
We've *been* talking about that section, jimbo. smile.gif


Okay, then I'm lost. The debate is raging about using astral perception to target physical targets with physical spells?

So, from the para I referenced:

"An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space."

Dakka Dakka
Yup it should be clear by now that you can use astral perception to target mundane targets.
Yerameyahu
My problem is that astrally-perceiving and dual-natured are not the same, specific with regard to this question.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 1 2010, 08:10 AM) *
My problem is that astrally-perceiving and dual-natured are not the same, specific with regard to this question.


My problem is one people seem to be adding rules and fluff into there argument that don't exist to get to the conclusion that direct spells can't be used o physical targets when astrally perceiving.

The fluff is fairly explicit, what stops you from casting on a plane is being on that plane. Astral projection on one plane can only cast on that plane, just physical, on one plane can only cast on that plane, astrally perceiving on two planes can cast on both. It obviously creates line of sight because otherwise you could not cast at all on the astral plane.

The rules explicitly say you can cast on both planes, but for some reason people want to add a line that says only indirect spells. Why?(If you are saying yeah its a house rule but I like it this way that is fine)

This is the argument I am seeing.

GM :The rule says uncompensated recoil removes dice from your attempt to shoot someone.

Player: but I'm using both hands, its easier to handle recoil when you use both hands. It makes total sense that when you use both hands you could handle more recoil.

GM: yeah sure, but that is not in rules.

Player: but its not not in the rules. So it exists you just have to use game logic instead of rules to find it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 1 2010, 10:02 AM) *
My problem is one people seem to be adding rules and fluff into there argument that don't exist to get to the conclusion that direct spells can't be used o physical targets when astrally perceiving.

The fluff is fairly explicit, what stops you from casting on a plane is being on that plane. Astral projection on one plane can only cast on that plane, just physical, on one plane can only cast on that plane, astrally perceiving on two planes can cast on both. It obviously creates line of sight because otherwise you could not cast at all on the astral plane.

The rules explicitly say you can cast on both planes, but for some reason people want to add a line that says only indirect spells. Why?(If you are saying yeah its a house rule but I like it this way that is fine)

This is the argument I am seeing.

GM :The rule says uncompensated recoil removes dice from your attempt to shoot someone.

Player: but I'm using both hands, its easier to handle recoil when you use both hands. It makes total sense that when you use both hands you could handle more recoil.

GM: yeah sure, but that is not in rules.

Player: but its not not in the rules. So it exists you just have to use game logic instead of rules to find it.


Heheheh.... Awesome... wobble.gif
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 1 2010, 11:56 AM) *
Heheheh.... Awesome... wobble.gif



I was a bit incoherent even by my dyslexic riddled standards,(I am just waking up here) but I guess my point got across.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 1 2010, 11:50 AM) *
I was a bit incoherent even by my dyslexic riddled standards,(I am just waking up here) but I guess my point got across.



Yep... Loud and clear in my opinion... wobble.gif
jimbo
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 1 2010, 07:10 AM) *
My problem is that astrally-perceiving and dual-natured are not the same, specific with regard to this question.


Isn't the only difference between astrally perceiving and dual-natured that the d-n folks do not receive the -2 dp when performing physical tasks?
Yerameyahu
Well, no. Dual-natured creatures see astral and physical at the same time, the same way a troll sees normal and thermo at the same time, right? (Maybe I'm just confused on that point.) Astral Perception has to be switched back and forth; technically, you can't sense the physical in any way while sensing the astral.

In fact, Shinobi, you *lose* dice for not using enough hands.
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 1 2010, 01:20 PM) *
Well, no. Dual-natured creatures see astral and physical at the same time, the same way a troll sees normal and thermo at the same time, right? (Maybe I'm just confused on that point.) Astral Perception has to be switched back and forth; technically, you can't sense the physical in any way while sensing the astral.


You are trying to lump the LOS determination step with the P/M determination step, when they are actually separate.

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 1 2010, 01:20 PM) *
In fact, Shinobi, you *lose* dice for not using enough hands.


Machine pistol uses one hand. Do you get less recoil when using two hands on a machine pistol?
Traul
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 1 2010, 06:02 PM) *
This is the argument I am seeing.

GM :The rule says uncompensated recoil removes dice from your attempt to shoot someone.

Player: but I'm using both hands, its easier to handle recoil when you use both hands. It makes total sense that when you use both hands you could handle more recoil.

GM: yeah sure, but that is not in rules.

Player: but its not not in the rules. So it exists you just have to use game logic instead of rules to find it.

You do know that this rule used to exist in SR3, don't you? wink.gif
Yerameyahu
You do if that machine pistol has a folding stock. I guess you could argue you're using the stock one-handed, but that's silly. Anyway, the point is that it's a bad comparison.

It's not clear that they're separate, when you're using an astral sense for a physical action. I understand the position that only the 'body' matters. It is one point.
Shinobi Killfist
The thing is you are in both planes and you create LOS, that is all that is needed. Heck if it did not create line of sight you could not even cast indirect spells at them since those still need to be able to be targeted. Things you can't see might get caught in the area but you have to have LOS to the target point/center of the AoE. Indirect and direct spells have the same LOS requirements. To quote "Indirect Combat spells generate
a spell construct at the point of origin (the caster) which travels down the mystic link to the chosen target (see Choose a Target, p. 183)," Note there is not a special exception to targeting. So exactly what spells can people cast on targets while astrally perceiving if it does not create full LOS.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 1 2010, 03:38 PM) *
You do if that machine pistol has a folding stock. I guess you could argue you're using the stock one-handed, but that's silly. Anyway, the point is that it's a bad comparison.

It's not clear that they're separate, when you're using an astral sense for a physical action. I understand the position that only the 'body' matters. It is one point.


Given that you can dual wield both machine pistols and SMGs it is not assumed you are using both hands.

QUOTE (Traul @ Aug 1 2010, 03:34 PM) *
You do know that this rule used to exist in SR3, don't you? wink.gif


I had forgotten actually.
Yerameyahu
I'm not arguing that indirect spells work and direct ones don't. Someone suggested that earlier, that's all. I understand that there's a position that all LOS is the same. It's not clear to me that's true, but it is a position.

Yes, if you look at the hands required rules, it's clear that SMGs and MPs use one hand. So? My point is that it's totally irrelevant as a comparison, and certainly not a topic for this thread. (I think a stock makes it 'rifle-sized', but I wasn't saying that's RAW.)
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 2 2010, 06:11 AM) *
I'm not arguing that indirect spells work and direct ones don't. Someone suggested that earlier, that's all. I understand that there's a position that all LOS is the same. It's not clear to me that's true, but it is a position.
To sum it up:
Astral perception=only astral sense(s), no physical perception, can cast on either plane

If you needed mundane perception to target mundane targets, you couldn't cast on the physical plane at all while astrally perceiving, because you have no physical sense. You are not only lacking sight but the four other senses as well, including touch, which you need for touch range spells. This contradicts one of the features of astral perception. Ergo astral targeting of physical targets must be enough, if you acknowledge being able to cast on either plane as a given.

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 2 2010, 06:11 AM) *
Yes, if you look at the hands required rules, it's clear that SMGs and MPs use one hand. So? My point is that it's totally irrelevant as a comparison, and certainly not a topic for this thread. (I think a stock makes it 'rifle-sized', but I wasn't saying that's RAW.)
I agree.
Yerameyahu
That's a good point, and I did notice when it was made earlier. It's clear that we've exhausted other positions, so I'll go with that.

I guess it's just annoying that the strict astral/meat separation has this hole in it, and that astral sight is super-vision. I remember vividly my first SR3 game, where I tried to argue that flicking astral perception on was like some perfect color-coded heat vision to let me blast everything… at the time, it was a big problem and kind of a 'munchkin joke'. Funny how it's now the RAW. smile.gif

So, unrelated curiosity: how do you use a gun or a drive a car using astral perception, if all your senses really are 'off'? Just use the astral 'version' and no smartlink/AR/etc. modifiers? I guess it's steering-wheel only (and no removed-trigger on the gun), because you can't use trodes or anything either, right?
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 2 2010, 08:00 AM) *
So, unrelated curiosity: how do you use a gun or a drive a car using astral perception, if all your senses really are 'off'? Just use the astral 'version' and no smartlink/AR/etc. modifiers? I guess it's steering-wheel only (and no removed-trigger on the gun), because you can't use trodes or anything either, right?


The -2 penalty covers most of the challenges to interacting with physical objects while astrally perceiving, though you do have to keep in mind that all physical objects block astral LOS (even the windows of the car).You do lose smartlink/AR/etc. bonuses as you can no longer see the interfaces to use them, however removed trigger/smart ammo skip/trodes/etc. still work because they use thought to trigger the action, not any senses.
Dakka Dakka
I'm not so sure about smartlink/AR. If the setup is with an imagelink you are most definitely right. however if the augmented reality which the smartlink crosshair is part of is conveyed via DNI, I'm not so sure. This bypasses the sensory organs and gives the information directly to the brain. It's a bit of a grey are IMHO, whether this input is blocked by astral perception.
Yerameyahu
Okay, thanks. I thought I'd read that you can't use VR, and VR is basically just super-AR, so… smile.gif
Dakka Dakka
Hmm you may have a point there.
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