What would happen if someone attached a tiny amount of c-12 to a fire extinguisher and then detonated the charge?

-Siege

I would have to say, teh case of the extinguisher make a resistence check, like any other barrier against explosives. 0 successes it explodes, 1 success it spews out entire contents and moves about 15 meters or so in a single combat round. 2 successes it gets a small whole, takes 3 full rounds to empty and tumbles and jumbles around 100 meters in distance (smaller hole, more focused applicationof the force), 3 or more success it get digned, bent and otherise useful.

You'd get extra shrapnel effects and put out any fires in the vicinity.

~J

And seriously complicate a mage's LOS for a round or two?

Provided he was in close proximity -- say, ground zero?

-Siege

Edited for circumstance

The main problem is, that outer shell of a fire extinguisher is not neccessarily the main housing of the compressed gas inside. If I remember correctly, and I likely am wrong here, there is an inner ccylinder that actually houses the gass, then there is some space or insulation then the thin outer shell, this is so you don't freeze yourself when using it nor do you risk it exploding should it fall.

How much explosive are we talking here?

That's a good question -- I'm not personally experienced in using C-4.

But based on demonstrations, I'd say it wouldn't take much to completely rupture a fire extinguisher.

-Siege

I'd count it as heavy smoke in the area for 1d6 turns, light smoke for another 2d6.

Yes, probably. I, in my dice-happy ways, would probably roll 1d6, then use that number of dice against TN 4 to stage up damage from Light or Medium and use a Power of 2+1d6. This all to represent the random element of such an improvised explosive.

~J

The extinguisher here at work is 195 PSI in the green. It's a medium sized. I'd go with an 8S blast with a -1m radiating out. Double that if unarmored.

What type of extinguisher is it? Powder? Foam? CO2? Water?

I don't know how the rst of them work, but I saw them open the (big) water extinguisher in my flat a while back. The main section (containing water) wasn't pressurised at-all, I think the pressure came from a CO2 canister held inside. I'd imagine that when the handle was squeezed; it released CO2 in the central chamber which pushed the water out. If it is an extinguisher of that design, though, you could easily open it up and use the internal tank as a more potent & compact explosive.

Unfortunately I can't check as they removed that extinguisher, replacing it with a powder one, and I have no idea how it works.

How Stuff works, fire extinguishers

Seems like it would be very unlikely for the thing to explode. Most likely it would just crack open and dribble the retardant out, somewhat less likely the co2 canister might break open and violently force the retardant out of the outer cylinder in a second or two probably causing it to shoot off a bit.

The pressure involved also isn't nearly as high as one of those compressed gas cylinders (ie a helium one for filling up balloons. The regular fire extinguisher is at 195psi, while a high pressure industrial cylinder is at 500+ psi. I think the ones I used to use in the lab arrived filled to 2000psi. I have heard anecdotes about those being dropped and having their valves snapped off then shooting through walls and down streets a few blocks. I think they are nearly impossible to actually break in half though.

I was thinking about that, but let's remember that RPG's are rarely about reality. It's about the cool cinematics that we grow up with making us go "Wow, that was soooo cool."

Oh well, so much for that idea.

-Siege

Who's to say that Fire Extinguishers aren't different in the sixth world, though?

Besides, I think it's likely that some shrapnel from the outer blast could pierce the inner container (which is probably not made to be banged around at all). So I'd still have it blow up.

Well I know some stuff that would make perfect FAE devices then, small compressed air tanks, the type you use in paintball. These little fraggers are filled to 3,000psi and can go all the way up to 5,000psi, make a nice shrapnel blast. And to add to the fun, some like the fiberglass and carbon fiber wrapped models have a thinner steel cylinder then the all steel models. 9oz-20oz CO2 bottle also make a great weapon, they really don't explode, they can fly at high speeds<fast enough to kill some one> . Or you can make them spew liquid CO2 all over the place making the area kinda cloudy, not as effective as smoke grenade but does some what of a decent job in enclosed spaces. And if some one is stupid enough to pick said CO2 bottle up, they will give them selves a real nice cold burn.

[Edit]
In paintball there are two main gases used in paintball, there is aid and nitrogen, so if you have the tank filled with N2 then you can have a FAE device. Just repalce the reg with a one way valve and provide an ignitor.
[/Edit]

[Edit]
I was thinking of nitrous Oxide, well these little tanks are general putpose in what they can be filled with, so just put some very highly combustible gas in there and you have a nice explosive device.
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They aren't FAEs, though.

~J

If they became phenomenally better at putting out fires, the tradeoff might be worth it.

A lame excuse to justify it? Yep!

They use dynamite to put out oil-well fires. Why not house fires?

a oxygen tank would not bring about fire on its own but pure oxygen makes it more likely that something else will burn. if i got things right the nevel of oxygen in the air is what controls how easy it is for something to catch fire.

hydrogen on the other hand would be scary as that would basicly react with the oxygen in the air!

allso, nitrogen is one of the most stable gasses out there. i think there are allmost nothing it reacts to.

Feh, modified plan.

Option A
Cannister of Pepper Punch, pressurized cannister of Nitrogen, small amount of C-12 -- all bundled together with a ring-and-pin detonation system.

Option B
Pressurized cannister of oxygen, a willy-pete and a small amount of c-12. Possibly a petroleum jelly compound, if available.

-Siege

Not sure what willy-pete is, but a lot of people try to mix PJ with gasoline and make a sort of home made Napalm. The gas burns and the jelly sticks and spreads as you try to wipe it off. Since it is also a petroleum based product it to burns.

You can make an unbelievable amount of of explosives with stuff from 2 places. The pool warehouse (swiming pool shops), and a pluming supply shop, neither of which check IDs or care who you are. The plumbing shop has more then just cast iron pipe, look around.

I will not go into to detail about it, but with the cost of about $50 US you blow a car to hell, or wipe out a small night club.

You need to know some basic chemistry and some little safty things when trying to cook up TNT on the Kenmoore, but just about any monkey can do it.

Willy Pete = White Phosphorous. It also burns and sticks, and I'm pretty sure it's better at it than napalm (or anything similar to napalm). And thermite/thermate are a lot more fun still.

For most shadowrunners, making explosives at home isn't neccessary. Commercial explosives have an Availability of 6, so they shouldn't be any problem to get (although still too hard, considering how easy they are to get IRL), and only cost 60Y/kg.

All the acid-mixing stuff might be fun in a ganger campaign, though.

Wouldn't WP need to be embedded in the target for maxium effect? Naplam just has to coat you, I believe WP has to burn into you. Really doesn't matter if someone is throwing either at you, you have more problems to worry about then which burns better.

Making explosives in your kitchen for SR is pretty wasteful I'll agree, only because they have the contacts to get the stuff. A normal person or my self doesn't have the luxury of calling Mr. Fix-It for a couple of kilos of commercial junk. I will have to whip up a batch of RDX in my garage if I want to blow something up. Like thermite, I can make a bunch of in my basement if I had the desire to, only because I don't no where to get it or if I could get it with out leaving a long trail of who I am. White Phosphorus is a little hard to home brew but with a little keen shopping the materials are at hand. Like after the Oaklahoma bombing, they found Ammonia Nitrate was the bombers material of choice. They governmet started rolling out rules on the sale of it. They are now putting blockers in the fertilizer to make sure the Ammonia Nitrate can't be used to make a bomb. The sad thing is, if you look around with a keen eye, you can buy Ammonia nitrate by the gallon in almost pure form. If the bombers knew that, that federal building would have been knocked over. Their bomb was a lot of manure and oil in drums. If they culd have ditched the manure for ram Ammonia Nitrate, that bomb could have been easily 10 times worse.

I geuss it is a regional thing. In America we can pretty much buy guns out of vendign machines, but if the thing can knock down a house the feds will be all over your butt. Some stuff can be gotten easily enough. Gun stores will sell tubs of black power and in soem rural areas hardware shops still have Dynamite, but if it looks like a bomb in the city it will swarmed upon by the law.

The WP thing, I was just thinking, if it fell in front of you or just hit you, you could get away from it. With Napalm if it hits you it is pretty hard to get away from.

Mind you I don't have any experience with WP, and very little with home brew Naplam.

I have seen some documentaries and sch about these different weapons. Napalm is hard to put out or help a man burning from it. WP is most dangerous if it is stuck inside you. Being stuck inside you makes it hard to stop the burning.

Either way both are a bitch and I don't want either near me in a hostile situation.

Well, like I said, I'm pretty sure WP can't just be brushed off even if it hasn't burned into to you yet. It's just that in addition to being pretty difficult to brush off, it can also burn right into your skin, so that it's almost impossible to get rid of. And like it says in the CC entry for WP grenades, it will burst violently into flames whenever there is oxygen present, so it's a real bitch to put out too -- basically only possible by keeping the WP sealed under a cloth so it can't get any oxygen, or with special chemicals for just that purpose.

Just checked from my FDF manuals and, like I suspected, the 5,000F burning temperature for the WP grenade is wayoff. It seems WP burns at almost exactly the same temperatures as napalm, only slightly hotter (maybe 10% hotter).

Thermate really does burn in the 4,500F/2,500C - 5,400F/3,000C range, and it doesn't need any external oxygen to burn. A few kgs of that sprayed over a 10 meter radius ought to make short work of anyone and anything within that are when it goes off.

I'm not doubting that it would make hanging around the affected area not-very-nice, but it might not have that Feels Like Something Is Melting Your Face Away While Smashing It With A Sledgehammer -effect.

For just a bright and painful flash, mainly a distraction thing, WP might indeed be better -- if only because it's cheaper (AFAIK). Thermite and thermate both burn really bright too, but are likely to prove a lot more than just "painful".

BTW, it seems for difficulty of getting rid of, mixtures of teflon, magnesium (or aluminum), glass powder and nitrocellulose are the worst. Won't melt as nicely through armor, weapons and vehicles, however.

Well yes -- "painful and distracting with a short-lived fireball".

Compared to thermite detonating and incinerating flesh, bone and armor...yeah.

-Siege

Just as a side nte. the TV show MASH, had a trooper shot in the leg with some WP. They had to submerge his leg in a tank of water to stop it from burning. THen they turned the lights down to see it glowing, to remove it. I know TV is not the place to look for answers on anything,but I thought it was a neat episode.

In Arizona (possibly Nevada too), you can buy commercial explosives with a driver's liscense.

I love this state

If you're careful enough, all you need is a lot of ammonia and large amounts of iodine crystals.

"Careful enough", in this case, being more or less superhumanly careful.

~J

Once again, I'd like to bid a fond Hello ( ) to our good friends at Homeland Security.

IIRC white phosphrous (it's actually white, the alternative chamical strucute is red) will burn underwater, this is why it's so hard to put out. With 'surface' fire agents like napalm you can lose your clothes, scrape off the burning stuff and probably not die. (assuming that you have just a bit of it on you).

The problem with phosphrous is that you have to dig it out of your flesh (bayonet is handy method). Most agents would be put out by your blood.

WP also produces plenty of smoke, so it is often used in vehicle smoke dispensors (alternative is burning motor oil).

Black powder and dynamite are both very easy to get in most parts of the US. And you can always mix fertilizer and disel fuel (Which are available everywhere).

I think this is about white phosphorous, it may be a similar powder, but I'm not sure:

The incendiary powder I think is white phosphorous does not actually burn underwater, but does re-ignite the moment it is in contact with gaseous oxygen. When you add in how it can get in the burnt and magled flesh, you can't just wash it off, you have to cut it off.

Bottom line, it's not very difficult to generate high explosives at home. I can easily manufacture nitrocelluose-- I even use some of it in magic acts. Nitroglycerine is disturbingly easy to make (but *very* difficult to stabilize without losing a few things... like fingers) and can be quite destructive. Thermite is just iron oxide and aluminum mixed in careful proportions.

The ignition temp of thermite is pretty high though, usually you use powdered magnesium to get it started.