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Simon Kerimov
QUOTE
$imon$ez:
Arsenal p121
"Ares Auxilia Mk3 (Tracked Military Backup Drone)
Military backup drones like the Auxilia have become a common sight in modern combat units. They are large, heavily armored, and intended to perform backup duties for combat platoons. Not armed themselves, they leave the battle to be fought by the soldiers, while being capable of transporting heavy weapons, ammunition, and equipment in armored bins, to reduce the weight carried by each individual soldier, thus enhancing the mobility of the whole platoon.
Similar Models: GM-Nissan Morlock, Shiawase Kei Std.
Upgrades: Special Storage (armored bins), Tracked Vehicle"
$imoff:

--$imon$ez is an opensource [Knowsoft]::code provided by TrnZhX--


How much crap can I stuff into one of these? Can I manage a shop? The Workshop modification only takes 1 slot, so I'm wondering if I can't fit 4 shops onto one of these large drones.
Tanegar
Where would you take/use such a beast? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say military drones are a fairly remarkable sight in even the worst parts of the Redmond Barrens.

Edited for correct diction.
Simon Kerimov
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Aug 11 2010, 11:12 PM) *
Where would you take/use such a beast? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say military drones are a fairly remarkable site in even the worst parts of the Redmond Barrens.


I don't disagree at all. Unless you were willing to go to a great deal of trouble and expense to disguise it, you wouldn't be using it in a town. It would be military gear.
Yerameyahu
A slot is not the same thing as cargo space (too bad Rigger 3 is obsolete), so try (I know it's hard) to exercise reasonableness when adding modifications. smile.gif Four workshops is in the 'silly' range. Just get a van or truck.

And I agree that you can't have one anyway. biggrin.gif
Simon Kerimov
QUOTE
$imon$ez:
Arsenal p145-145
"Special Machinery/Storage (All):
There are dozens of different types of special equipment that vehicles can mount, such as dozer blades, cranes, or cold storage to transport goods. This modification requires some gamemaster interpretation, but as a guideline the slot cost for a modification is approximately a quarter of the size of the modification itself (a large dozer blade may have a Body size of 8, for instance). External special machinery can also be modular, so it can be swapped with a Logic + Automotive Mechanic (10, 5 minutes) Extended Test.
A special cargo hold with specific requirements would have a slot cost of about a quarter the Body size of the goods that would fit inside it. Instead giving strict numbers, the gamemaster should adjust them as he needs them for his campaign."
$imoff:

--$imon$ez is an opensource [Knowsoft]::code provided by TrnZhX--


Does this help? Because it seems to me like the writer just dodged saying anything. How does someone go about making up a Body attribute for something like this? I don't know of any non-vehicular gear that gives a Body. Maybe I'm just supposed to start connecting vehicles and drones together? A Large Drone has a body of 4, so can I burn 2 slots on each Drone and link them together? How about burning all 4 so I can make a giant sheet of Ares Auxilia's?

Unless I'm massively misreading this, it may take the cake for the worst written rule in Shadowrun 4th Ed. There's a whole pile of nothing in the FAQ and the Errata either.

This? This is me getting frustrated.

...

The noise you just didn't hear was my head exploding.
Simon Kerimov
Actually....If I used the Centipede, and gave it one extra plug-in, I could build triangles.

QUOTE
$imon$ez:
Arsenal p117
"Toyota MK-Centipede (Search and Rescue Walker Drone)
Centipedes are the current standard for search and rescue drones. Each drone less than a foot long, working in large networks of tens or hundreds to scurry through wreckage looking for survivors or evidence of the cause of a disaster. To protect them from fire or caustic liquids they are heavily armored, though they are virtually useless in combat situations because of their slow movement. Once a drone has found something, it will call the rest of the drones of its network. Once there, adaptors at both ends of each Centipede allow them to dock and lock into each other, greatly enhancing their strength in lifting wreckage, bracing walls, and freeing those buried.
The basic STR of a single Centipede is 0. When physically joined, the network’s overall STR is equal to the number of Centipedes locked together (max. STR 10) for lifting, bracing and rescue purposes only.
Similar Models: NeoNet MRS-1000
Std. Upgrades: Special Armor Modification (Chemical Protection 4, Fire Resistance 4, Insulation 4), Walker Mode"
$imoff:

--$imon$ez is an opensource [Knowsoft]::code provided by TrnZhX--
Shrike30
The more workshops, the more sense it'd make to have them in one kit (honestly... a power drill from a Carpentry shop is the same tool you'd use in an Electrician shop).

I've worked in an auto shop. The amount of space a properly tricked-out auto shop takes up (keep in mind... that includes hydraulic lifts that can elevate cars and chain rigs that can lift engines out of same) is huge. In the SR sense (the same way they can't get the definition of an HMG straight) a Workshop and a Facility may involve not thinking about what actual people think of when those words come to mind... but if you're going to fit the amount of stuff you need into a Shop (in my mind, a place with the right tools, but not necessarily a huge selection of spare parts like you'd find in a Facility) you ain't transporting that shit on the back of an overgrown Red Wagon with treads and a tactical network presence.
Simon Kerimov
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Aug 12 2010, 02:43 AM) *
The more workshops, the more sense it'd make to have them in one kit (honestly... a power drill from a Carpentry shop is the same tool you'd use in an Electrician shop).

I've worked in an auto shop. The amount of space a properly tricked-out auto shop takes up (keep in mind... that includes hydraulic lifts that can elevate cars and chain rigs that can lift engines out of same) is huge. In the SR sense (the same way they can't get the definition of an HMG straight) a Workshop and a Facility may involve not thinking about what actual people think of when those words come to mind... but if you're going to fit the amount of stuff you need into a Shop (in my mind, a place with the right tools, but not necessarily a huge selection of spare parts like you'd find in a Facility) you ain't transporting that shit on the back of an overgrown Red Wagon with treads and a tactical network presence.


So, kits are ok, but shops aren't so much happening. Alright, I can work with that.
Yerameyahu
Simon, I dunno what happened with your headsplosion back there, but it's not that hard. Body still roughly corresponds to size: Body 6 is a small car, etc. There are some really odd exceptions, but it basically works. This is still subject to the 'is this reasonable?' rule. biggrin.gif
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (Simon Kerimov @ Aug 11 2010, 11:48 PM) *
I don't disagree at all. Unless you were willing to go to a great deal of trouble and expense to disguise it, you wouldn't be using it in a town. It would be military gear.



The question is why would anyone care? This is a game world where go gangs regularly take over parts of the interstate and ambush military patrols, I'm not sure why someone having an unarmed army suprlus drone hauling their stuff would even cause folks to miss a beat.
Yerameyahu
It's more recognizable than a van, that's all. smile.gif Obviously, it depends on the 'town'.
Johnny B. Good
Long story short: Don't buy a military vehicle. Steal a garbage truck. Chuck all of the machinery inside and put a shop in the back.

Bonus points: Mount an internally concealed tank cannon on the top.
KarmaInferno
I'm wondering why a Shop is merely Capacity 1 cost, rather than, say, Capacity 12 or something.




-karma
LurkerOutThere
Mmmmmmm garbage truck urban tanks. I think I'm stealing this idea now
Yerameyahu
It's Mod-Capacity 1. You still have the ability to tweak the engine, add armor, buff the sensors, etc.

SR4 doesn't have Cargo Factors, and mod slots don't really match up to space. :/ I guess the GM/players must control themselves. biggrin.gif
Johnny B. Good
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 12 2010, 04:03 PM) *
It's Mod-Capacity 1. You still have the ability to tweak the engine, add armor, buff the sensors, etc.

SR4 doesn't have Cargo Factors, and mod slots don't really match up to space. :/ I guess the GM/players must control themselves. biggrin.gif


C'monnnnn... You know you want to load in a hidden tank cannon with all of that extra space. rotfl.gif
sabs
well but you have mod-slots=body
This is why I can stuff 20 mods into a Bus, but only 10 into a car.
Yerameyahu
Right. They don't really match up, but they're sort of trying to. smile.gif Some things have +4 slots, but that doesn't mean they're twice as big (or 50% larger, etc.).
KarmaInferno
They could have added a "must have a minimum Body of X to install this modification" on the really bulky ones.

As it is by the written rules I can install a Shop into a Dragonfly micro-drone. Which of course is ridiculous.




-karma
Johnny B. Good
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Aug 12 2010, 08:17 PM) *
They could have added a "must have a minimum Body of X to install this modification" on the really bulky ones.

As it is by the written rules I can install a Shop into a Dragonfly micro-drone. Which of course is ridiculous.

-karma


You're right, there probably should be a rule for minimum body requirements. If a GM allows things like a shop in a spyfly, god help his players.
CanRay
QUOTE (Johnny B. Good @ Aug 12 2010, 02:30 PM) *
You're right, there probably should be a rule for minimum body requirements. If a GM allows things like a shop in a spyfly, god help his players.

"OK, it's installed." "Excellent. So, I pull out the wrenches." "What wrenches? The only thing you could fit into the body was a Swiss Army Knife. One of the smaller ones. So you have a knife, a standard screwdriver, and a pair of scissors. Oh, and the toothpick." "Yeah, because a toothpick is so damned useful on a Shadowrun! Damnit!"
Yerameyahu
Well, a spyfly couldn't have it anyway; it's a Standard Mod. (Oh snap, KarmaInferno! Hehe.)

But, you could probably try to put one in a motorcycle or something. smile.gif There are min-Body rules for things like turrets and heavy guns.
sabs
Honestly a Shop should not be available on a vehicle with less than 20 body.

IE:
Vista, Patrol Ship, That big honking helicopter.
Yerameyahu
Well, what are those vans that locksmiths drive around in? Or various other mobile repair/technician guys? It's pretty big for a toolkit. :/ Hmm.
sabs
But it's not really a full shop either.

I suspect it really depends on the technical profession.
And, I'd be okay with dropping that to say Body 16 (which is the body of a bulldog)

smile.gif
Yerameyahu
The shop definition is pretty vague, yeah. It does depend on what the shop is, common sense, etc. It *is* a 'deployable' shop, that can only be used with the vehicle parked and unfolded/set up/whatever.
QUOTE
Workshops are generally not meant to be used while the vehicle is in motion, though the gamemaster may permit some limited amount of work (perhaps treating the tools as a kit rather than a shop, and adding further limitations if the project being worked on is too large to fit within the vehicle).
KarmaInferno
I've always gotten the impression a "shop" was a couple of those rolling metal tool storage cabinets plus a few table-mount size pieces of power equipment. Small enough that it could be packed away in a van or in the back of a pickup truck for transport but it would have to be unpacked to actually use it. Kinda what a career skilled construction worker brings to a construction project.

A facility would have stuff that is just too damn big or heavy to transport, like vehicle lifts and full size lathes, etc. A kit would be portable by one guy, though he'd probably have to set down the kit and unpack it to use it.


-karma
Yerameyahu
Yeah. So, you could pack one into a pickup, full-size van, or larger vehicle. A tractor-trailer could handle several different ones, but you're using up lots of the cargo space. All the vans/trucks in SR4 are about 16 and up (24 for the tractor-with-trailer, only 14 for the structurally-unsound GAZ.).

I still like the CF rules to make this clearer, but we'll just have to rely on GM/players not being jerks. biggrin.gif
KarmaInferno
Really, a shop shouldn't BE a vehicle modification.

It's cargo.



-karma
Simon Kerimov
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Aug 12 2010, 02:46 PM) *
Really, a shop shouldn't BE a vehicle modification.

It's cargo.



-karma


I could see an argument that it becomes a vehicle modification if it relies on having the vehicle to do heavier work. If it powers electrical tools off the vehicle battery (or GridLink for legal, urban shops), or uses the chassis as a electrical ground, or the engine to spin lathes. Otherwise I guess it would be cargo.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Simon Kerimov @ Aug 12 2010, 03:52 PM) *
I could see an argument that it becomes a vehicle modification if it relies on having the vehicle to do heavier work. If it powers electrical tools off the vehicle battery (or GridLink for legal, urban shops), or uses the chassis as a electrical ground, or the engine to spin lathes. Otherwise I guess it would be cargo.


Eh. I'd only count it as a "modification" if it was physically, permanently attached to the vehicle and/or could not operate without said vehicle.

I have a power inverter that lets me run a radio, some hanging lights, and other various devices off my car's electrical system. They're great for like beach parties and such. I wouldn't consider them a modification to my car.



-karma
CanRay
Actually, I can see shops in a vehicle. You should see the gear that plumbers and locksmiths and such have in their vans.
Yerameyahu
AFAIK, the shop *is* built into the vehicle, permanently. It just can't be used while in motion, etc.
CanRay
Yeah, it's kind of hard to use a crude lathe while the van is swaying on the highway, dodging fire and melee weapons from a Troll Go-Gang. nyahnyah.gif
Simon Kerimov
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 12 2010, 03:40 PM) *
Yeah, it's kind of hard to use a crude lathe while the van is swaying on the highway, dodging fire and melee weapons from a Troll Go-Gang. nyahnyah.gif


Although it would be fun to GM for a group trying to do so.

"That'll be a -4 dice pool modifier to milling a new rocket tube.

Crit Fail you say? Have you considered putting a drill in a cyberarm? You've got room for it now."
Yerameyahu
That's why you gyro-link it!
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 12 2010, 04:26 PM) *
Actually, I can see shops in a vehicle. You should see the gear that plumbers and locksmiths and such have in their vans.


I have. I work in commercial construction management. I deal with contractors all the time.

Pretty much the only type of shop-type equipment I've seen regularly built INTO a vehicle is the gear needed for properly fusing main-trunk fiber optic cables together. And that's because they need to maintain a clean-room around the equipment. The slightest bit of contamination can screw up the fiber optics.

Everything else is pretty much: Load it into the truck/van. Drive to site. Unload the gear and hump it over to where you'll be working. Leave it there until the work in the area is done, even if it takes several days, a it's too damn heavy to be moving it back and forth all the time.

A large part of this is, well, you can't easily drive your van to the 36th floor of a half built skyscraper. Also, quite often the actual parking area for workers is some distance from the work area.



-karma
CanRay
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Aug 12 2010, 05:27 PM) *
A large part of this is, well, you can't easily drive your van to the 36th floor of a half built skyscraper.

Ah, all it requires is enough room to get up to speed, and the right ramp angle.
Simon Kerimov
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 12 2010, 05:38 PM) *
Ah, all it requires is enough room to get up to speed, and the right ramp angle.


Bah. It has a BOD of 4, so while it can't take Gecko Tips, it can take Gecko Treads and walk up the wall.

The wall may not appreciate it though.
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