I have never used karmagen but I know some people like it. So how much does a free spirit cost under karmagen?

Free spirits start with the magician quality: 15BP or 30Karma.
They start with every stat including special stats (edge, magic, force) all at 2: 110BP or 110Karma or is that 66karma?

Does that mean that the 125 BP left that is part of the cost of being a free spirit now costs 250karma?

So the total cost would be 390karma under SR4A or 346karma under SR4?

They don't pay anything for their Magician Quality, their starting attributes, or their Racial Cost. You start out as a F2 (all stats at 2) Mage for 0 karma.

no. you take the cost of the race, which is 250 BP. that is the cost you use. which means it costs 500 karma to be a free spirit, leaving you 250 to play with (which isn't much, but you do get a fair amount of intangibles for those 250 BP)

(edit: forgot to mention below this point was all edited)



didn't they errata that, or do they just keep saying they're going to? race costs are now supposed to be double BP i thought.

Emphasis mine.

EDIT:


No sir, see my first quote and underlined section please.

EDIT EDIT:

Heck, re-reading the bit about the Force equalling their starting attribute makes them so much more playable in BP system too. Dang.

So I am still confused. I thought in karmagen you basically pay for all your attributes beyond 1 and then pay for any abilities you have like lowlight. But AI and free spirit characters have some abilities that other races don't have so how much does it cost?

Or am I just doing this all wrong?

edit:
I think it is like they were freed at force 2 but subsequent increases to force does not raise there other attributes. Force is however their maximum. So putting force at 5 at the start to avoid the extra cost of having it as the max of 6, and then having other stats at 4 (to avoid the extra cost of having them at there max of 5).

I should re read the section though. So much of shadowrun is up to interpretation

you don't pay for stuff that comes with your race. you pay for your race (or don't pay for your race at all, if they still haven't errated it, with the exception of races that are actually qualities in which case you are screwed over royally in comparison) and get all the basic stuff that comes with it free of charge.

edit: just checked, they indeed have not errated runner's companion yet. so technically, you still get your free spirit for free, since it counts as a metatype, and you don't pay for metatype under karmagen (that said, i could be remembering the price wrong for what they plan on errating it to, so it might actually be karma cost = BP that is the plan, which would at least be somewhat manageable for a free spirit)

Well then that does make it much better for them. No free stats but who cares.

As Written, Karmagen rules cost ZERO bp/Karma to play a free spririt.

The Errata'd Rules, by the guy who helped right the book, and published in the German Edition, can be found here.
Under German Karmagen(which is much more balanced and you should use it), Free Spirits cost 250 Karma to play.

Once you've paid for free spirit, then it comes with all the benefits of said spirit. Such as being a magician for free, and starting with stats and force at two. Karmagen doesn't change the perks of being a certain race. Orcs still start with a body of 4, etc.

Karmagen flat out doesn't work for free spirits (or AIs, for that matter) - they turn out way too powerful (Ancient History, who worked on Karmagen, has flat out said as much). Keep in mind that spirits can raise all of their physical and mental stats simply by raising their Force. Even if you use the Street Magic costs for that (10 Karma x new Force), it is still way cheaper than raising stats individually. Which I don't think is even possible anyways, since Force limits other stats.

The confusion about metatype cost comes because there is an errata, but only for the German edition. It is fairly simple - you pay the metatype cost in Karma (so trolls cost 40 karma, etc.), and use the SR4A revised costs when purchasing Attributes.

Strictly by current RAW, you don't pay for metatype, and pay 3 x new rating for Attributes. Karmagen characters under the errata usually come out a bit better off than with 400 BP. Karmagen pre-errata makes characters massively more powerful than 400 BP.

Well, there is an official English errata SOMEWHERE, because that's what the German authors used. But for some reason CGL does not bother to release their super-secret erratas to us lowly commoners...but officially released or not, the errata makes all the sense in the world.

Glyph I think Free Spirit PCs need to raise stats individually. Force is just their natural maximum. Other Spirits play by different rules but it is just a game balance thing. Also it means PC free spirits are more customized.

This is the line that those people off. I think it just explains why when you start you can't have a 1 in any of your stats, but if your force got lowered to 1 later though damage then all other stats would be 1s.

If you interpret it as such that a force six pc free spirit gets free stats all at 6 then it is over powered. But if force is basically just your natural maximum and you buy stats normally then it is at least not wildly over or under powered.

As do I. The description is poorly written and is in need of clarification, but the way it is written seems to imply, at least, that attributes are raised individually - the "natural minimums and maximums" part is placed in the paragraph with the information on STARTING attributes, while the "Force = natural maximum" part is placed with the information on RAISING those attributes.

I think I confessed this once, but I never looked at Aaron's AI and free spirit PC creation rules when writing karmagen, so they're horribly imbalanced. That said, if you include the errata from the German version, they should be...closer to playable.

I love you AH! *cough* I mean, uh, 'Yes, I concur.'
Not sure how that happened...

I think it is like they were freed at force 2 but subsequent increases to force does not raise there other attributes. Force is however their maximum. So putting force at 5 at the start to avoid the extra cost of having it as the max of 6, and then having other stats at 4 (to avoid the extra cost of having them at there max of 5).

I should re read the section though. So much of shadowrun is up to interpretation
[/quote]


Emphasis mine.

This means that if you raise your Force to 3, your natural Minimum and Maximum for all your attributes (including Edge) move to 3. This means all your stats are already capped at their natural maximum (unless you use Exceptional Attribute), and is mainly used for calculating Augmented Maximums.

While the issue of racial costs and attribute costs in Karmagen may not be in any errata, in my copy of the Runner's Companion, purchased within the last 4-6 months, specifically states that "Improving an attribute by 1" is "New Rating x5", and "First you must choose metatype or other alternative character concept (i.e. shapeshifter, AI, sasquatch, etc.); there Karma cost for metatype or race is equal to the BP cost for that metatype or option (i.e. if a race costs 10 BP, in Karmagen it costs 10 Karma)". (I've even included their typo for you.) It then goes on to talk about making note of Karma spent here, since it will affect how much Karma you can spend on Attributes later. As an FYI, my book was published by CGL, and is the third printing.

Sadly, they still do not clarify the Free Spirit rules for attributes, which I got to experience as a PC was interested in playing one before I started reading these forums again. Though I went with the option that made logical, less over-powered sense to me. That's a judgement call on the GM, in my opinion.

You just described any game, really, but there comes a point where a GM will make a judgement call that is in violation of the rules themselves. When that happens, of course it is legal for their game, but you enter house-rule territory. There's nothing wrong with house-rules inherently, but please note that house-rules are a hotly debated item, in real life, let alone these forums.

The Free Spirit character gen rules appear to be nearly unsalvageable (which makes sense if the same guy who produced the matrix rules did them....). You either end up with wimpy one-trick pony characters or game breaking monstrosities depending on how you read the vague rules and what generation method you choose. It doesn't appear that you can produce a "balanced" character. Plus the karma rules for free spirits seem especially retarded.

Holy shit, so they actually printed an errated version of the book and just didn't bother to realease the errata to public.
Atleast the the other books which errata hasn't been realeased havent gooten errated reprints(I'm looking at you Augmentation)

Yes, I realize that. I've been around before, lurking mostly, though I thought I had an account on here at one point in time, I can't seem to find it. So I made a new one. Just, the rules are confusingly written, and I have no clarifications there, unlike the Karmagen rules "fixes". It's also why the two are in two separate paragraphs, one based on book facts, and second based on GM calls, subject to massive amounts of opinion. I've seen how hotly contested even that one rule interpretation is, and would personally love better clarification. Until then, GM's really have to decide which way they want to go with it, if they allow the characters at all. I can see it going either way, and when my player asked me about FS attributes, I probably sat there for 20 minutes, deciding which way I wanted to go, while he picked out skills. I won't say which is the more correct or better interpretation, given current information. I will say that I think that was the best call that I could make, for my game, at the time. Which is completely my GM house rules. No one else is playing in my game, so I have no reason to say their interpretation either way is right or wrong.

I was originally of the opinion that Force raising everything else was a typo, but when I read the rules for free spirits in Street Magic, it is consistent with that. So I am torn - that rule makes free spirits as PCs broken (and it takes a lot to make me use the word "broken", which I normally loathe due to how overused it is). But on the other hand, I absolutely hate hate hate when a rules set uses one set of rules for something as critters, and another set of rules for the same thing as PCs (Third Edition shapeshifters, I'm looking at you).

I guess a compromise house rule would be to make them pay for all of their Attributes at char-gen, and have the option of raising them all by raising Force afterwards (but using the higher cost to so so from Street Magic). Still, even using the errata, free spirits are a PC type that I would be cautious about using Karmagen with, as the two rules were not written without reference to each other.

What I heard was the errata would be Karmagen cost would equal BP Cost.

So if your BP cost for race was 100, under Karmagen your cost was 100.

I used that for my campaign and it's worked rather well. I've got a diverse group where race was an afterthought. A couple of changelings, an elf, twin trolls, a couple of baseline humans, and so forth.

The way I understood it is that the free spirit character starts at force 2 with all stats at force 2.

Raising your magic attribute raises your force. But the other stats all stay at 2, and must be raised individually, up to the maximum of your force.

Doing it this way makes creating a free spirit character both difficult and viable. It's much easier if you play a possession spirit and use an animal vessel or a plasteel hummunculus, but they do lose the ability to materialize anywhere they want.

The one thing I will point out is that the Edge attribute is used for purchasing Spirit Powers. It's not terribly over-powered, but if your free spirit character wants to have a lot of powers, or the regeneration power, they're going to end up with a LOT of edge. I've got a player in my game now who's using edge on nearly every semi-important role.

edit: The DK chargen spreadsheet treats it exactly this way. I believe it to be correct.

Very close to how i interpret it but with one exception.

Read this.


Initiation would normally raise the maximum magic attribute but instead it raises the maximum force attribute. Then buying and raising force would raise the max of all other attributes including magic and edge.

It's all very unclear and frustrating. :/

Actually, the interpretation that makes them work basically as spirits should calms my inner Min-Maxer and allows me to focus more on skills and spells than Force and attributes. Sure, the capability for abuse is certainly there, but I find myself building Free Spirit PC's much more conservatively as they seem to be written.


Look at the second sentence I quoted - the underlined section shows how the stats work.

Also, the way that many people seem to interpret it (all stats stay at 2 unless you raise them individually) almost neccessitates a FSPC (Free Spirit Player Character) to be possession - your survivability (well, your staying-not-disrupted...-ability) is pretty close to 0 otherwise. That or using Shapechange.

EDIT: Proper text reference.

EDIT EDIT: Also, I prepared this at work the other day:

Let's take an in-depth look at this:


Ok, this tells us that the Free Spirit's Force starts at 2, and that the Force determines the natural minimums and maximums for their attributes, including Edge.


This just re-words the previous quote - it does not in any way state that you must then raise the other attributes seperately.

So now we have 3 sentences, and when read together they tell us that your physical and mental attributes, including your Edge special attribute, are all dependent on your Force, which can be raise naturally. Not only that, but your Force determines your natural minimums and maximums for your attributes.

Therefore, as you raise your Force, your natural maximums raise, allowing you to pay karma to raise your attributes. But also, your natural minimums raise, forcing your mental, physical, and edge attributes to also raise. None of the later sentences of the Free Spirit Attributes sections revises or removes the fact that their Force raises their Natural Minimums, which would force their other attributes higher as Force raises.

Karmagen helps them a lot because it is slanted towards lower stats and skills being cheaper.

If I were to do materialization I would do a face because of the abilities to mask auras better than a mage, to change what they look like at will, and the influence power. Plus being able to fly is a plus.

For both materialization and possession they would be weak compared to any other mage or spirit they come across.

I have a FSPC concept of a shadow samurai. Basically having fair combat abilities, Natural Attack being in the form of a katana, and some Fear or Confusion abilities, all based off the Shadow Samurai from the Oriental Adventures - Creatures of Rokugan.

His backstory is that he was trapped into withholding information from his master which caused his master's death, and the whole situation made it so that even with seppukku (spelling?) his honor would not be restored. As he traveled around Japan trying to atone for his dishonor, he died (natural causes or something - still not fleshed out), causing his soul to go to Jigoku, where he was until about 2060 when he returned from Jigoku into Japan. There, he met up with a Magical Group of kanmushi who taught him what he'd missed and helped him get started back up.

Now he runs the shadows (where he finds himself very at home, by the way) trying to finish his atonement by performing ops against dishonorable corporations. Alternatively, his trip through Jigoku hardened him into a budding shadow lord... Again, haven't fleshed it out completely.

His actual form being a samurai in great armor made completely out of shadows, with the Realistic Form being as he was in life - Japanese guy.

EDIT: Using a lot of the Powers you can easily replicate Anime-esque abilities, as in running super-fast and jumping from building to building (Movement + Fly), fading out of reality (Concealment), and other things.

Is there some way to beg/bribe/physically assault a dev into letting us know what exactly was meant to be the case?

I'm going to be mean now in order to properly communicate my point. It seems the only way.

Do you really believe the authors are SO bad that they wrote this:


"A free spirit's Force rating is the natural maximum for all Physical and Mental attributes, as well as its Edge attribute - so the player must raise Force if he wishes to raise the remaining attributes. In addition, free spirits have the same Physical, Mental, and Edge attributes as metahuman characters, which all start at 2 (their starting Force) at the start of character generation."

When what they meant to write was this:

"A free spirit character has only one attribute, Force, which all other attributes are equal to at all times. The free spirit characters force starts out at 2."

NO.


The first quote should be read a little more carefully. It's not the most well crafted two sentences in the world, but its understandable. It should be read like this:

"Free spirits have the same Physical, Mental, and Edge attributes as metahuman characters, which all start at 2 (their starting Force) at the start of character generation. A free spirit's Force rating is the natural maximum for all Physical and Mental attributes, as well as its Edge attribute - so the player must raise Force if he wishes to raise the remaining attributes(ABOVE THEIR CURRENT MAXIMUM)"


Don't even take into account whether or not possession spirits are far more viable than materialization spirits. Possession spirits will have higher physical stats than equal level materialization spirits in almost every case. A F12 spirit possessing an average human gets +3 to the physical attributes that a F12 materialization spirit does not. No matter what. In terms of physical stats, Possession is just plain better. Period.

Ok. So that's your opinion imposed on the RAW. Gotcha.

In fact, the sentence that you placed all caps in parentheses after can be used to argue my point also. If you want to raise the rest of your stats, you must raise your Force, since your Force determines the natural minimums.

Also, your closing opinion is false. A Materialization Free Spirit can cast Shapechange and become supremely more strong than a Possession Spirit, unless the Possession Spirit possesses something with similar baseline stats. For example, that F12 you mentioned, if Shapechanged into a rhinocerous, is much more dangerous than a possession on a human.

Here's a quote for you to argue about (emphasis mine):

So, the possession spirit also casts shape change. It doesn't matter, its not actually a part of the argument as to whether a PC Free Spirits attributes = force or are < or = to force.

It seems 100% obvious to me that my interpretation is correct. Yes, with my interpretation, free spirit characters suck and are hardly worth doing. That's just how it is. If you set their attributes as = to force, they're ridiculously overpowered. Either way, you have a PC type that does not mesh well with the rest of the game.

How exactly do you reconsile the sentence that says force determines free spirits attribute minimums?

Bad writing/editing. See my quote (few posts up) for something that supports the idea that their stats are not necessarily equal to their force.

As you quoted, "one or more" of the attributes. That's not definitive.

They are helped out a HUGE amount by karmagen even with the 250 karma to be a free spirit because all there stats and skills are so low anyway and low skills and stats are cheaper.

With the character that I am working on what was a horribly unoptimized and worthless 391BP character became 380 karma under karma gen.