So i have seen this question asked, but i am sure that i have seen no answer. This is the example shifter out of Ghost Cartels. Using this as the example would players also get the IP of 2, and if they do and there an adept does the Improved Reflex power add to this to the Max of four passes?
Thanks for your time and have a good day.




Also if i post anything like this in the future should i add this to it?

Unless I am mistaken shapeshifters do not naturally get extra IP, that said a large percentage of them would be adepts with the increased reflexes power. Not sure about the book example, I see no reason they should have 2 IP.

The book example displayed there doesn't have a high enough magic for Increased Reflexes. Interesting to note the Concealment Power there as well. . . maybe this example is of an a-typical shapeshifter?

Sorry i was not clear before; this seems to be a normal non adept Shapeshifter from Ghost cartels, funny i never caught the concealment. So this NPC shifter is rocking two things that player built shifter does not seem to get. No complaints, just wanted to know if this is the way all Jaguar shifters are stated except PC's? If not than would my player's adept power stack with the IP from the race to a max of four, or does he need to take it twice for the second IP?

Nothing stacks unless it specifically says it does, *especially* for IPs.

I'd say it does. Increases to IP's don't stack unless stated, but if your base IP is 2, I don't see why it shouldn't.

*shrug*. If you're using a 'sample critter' instead of the chargen, you're already houseruling things.

I'd stick to chargen for a player character, but I'm not averse to taking the sample critter and using his 2 IP boosted with adept powers to 4 IP for only 2 levels in Increased Reflexes and throw it at the players.

I agree with Yerameyahu, if they are not supposed to get them in creation than they will not be rocking extra IP's and special powers. It just seems funny that shifters are typed to be the leaders of the respective animal kingdom (well wolf and lion) but they are little less based stated than the normal ones. Now i understand that most of these leader shifters will have improved over time, so the reason why they are leading is that they get better, while there pack mates stay the same!

again thanks for posting your thoughts, and have a nice night!

You're right that the discrepancy is odd. There's a whole thread about this, I believe… the Shapechange one?

Well, except that this is a JAGUAR that SHIFTS into a Human.
And it says specifically:
In animal form they looks just like their normal animal counterpart and boast all of their innate animal abilities.
So these guys are completely different than a Spell Caster using the Shapechange spell.
Especially given that they semm to lose their 2nd IP when in human form.

*shrug* Perhaps nothing in that other thread is relevant. No skin off my nose.

Or it's irritatingly non-consistant. Because they would never ever make non-consistant characters in a Setting Module like Ghost Cartels

For this train of thought i am talking about Shapeshifters, and if this is the Norm for what the Jaguar looks like for his stat block. And if he does indeed look like this than why do the PC version lose a little of the stats.

Now i am not worried that they do, the Jaguar is a powerful build in its own right. But I want to know if the IP thing is supposed to be dropped for the PC's, and if each individual shapeshifter gets different powers that are unique to its type and the player does not see these.

Further if that is the case maybe there should be some thoughts of how to give the shifter these options in creation, and will we see the seperate stats for the different shifters?

I would assume that the rules explaining how to make a shifter character are the rules for making a shifter character. I have no idea where that sample NPC critter got his Concealment, for example. Assume that people make mistakes constantly in the books; the alternative is that they're secretly hiding rules for Nic Cage to find in bad movies.

We covered shifters around page 4 IIRC.

It is not uncommon from what I understand to have statblocks from written adventures that do not follow the rules. This is a good example, as is a technomancer somewhere (DotA II?) that had the Biofeedback Complex Form.

Neraph: There does not seem to be any relevant posts about shapshifters IP, only that there was a post about them being the odd man out.

Yerameyahu: If i am in error of posting this sort of questions of mechanics within these forums than i am sorry. I will never assume the worst of people sir, ever.

Have a good evening runners.

I figured we covered that since they are not mentioned as having more IPs then the default was 1.

Yeah, it was my last thread you're all thinking of, and the consensus seemed to be that, yes, it is indeed weird that PCs have less IPs than other shifters and animals of the same type, but you can deal with that, as it's the given rules for shapeshifters, or maybe you can convince your GM to give you another IP for 20 BP or so. That's probably how I'd do it, just up all the costs.

I wouldn't base anythink on NPC stat block from Ghost Cartels, many stat blocks in it have errors and some of the enemies have a nerfed statblock on purpose(ie. the Yama King) it would stand to reason that some of them might have better then normal stat blocks on purpose too.

naga-nuyen, I didn't say anything about you being in error. I said that you can't trust sample NPCs in books over the real rules. It has nothing to do with 'assuming the worst in people', although that's sometimes a prudent position. It didn't work here, though: you assumed I wasn't being benevolent.

Thank you everyone for your remarks and contributions. I will take GC as a separate example of the critter

Yerameyahu: you are right, and i am sorry. Have a good day Sir

I'(d say that if their animal has extra IP they get them too, but only when in their natural form, and extra IPs - for exemple from Adept powers - are not cumulative, that is they use the best of the two potions.

Great... Based on what rule?

That seems fairest. To say that shifters PCs don't get the 2 IPs of the great cat or whatever penalizes PCs against NPCs, and to say the extra IP stacks is to give a major freebie (*and* possibly allow more IPs than should be possible).

You and your rules, Neraph! Based on fair, fun, reasonable play. Rule 0.

At least I'll be known for something.

I think that allowing some shifters to have more IPs than others will cause an even greater possibility of cherry-picking (like having the eagle's mental stats doesn't already...). I also think that, while the animals themselves do have extra IPs, the rules for shape shifters themselves do not mention anything of the sort, and run on their own rules. Therefore the lack of mention means to default to the baseline rule of one IP.

I'm fine with that, too; it's certainly the lesser evil. The house rule/interpretation Dahrken mentioned is another perfectly good option, especially if the problem to be addressed is players whining about losing 'their' bonus IP. Different situations can always call for different rules, and tabletop is mutable.

It's not based on any hard-written rules because I found absolutely none on this specific point, one way or the other.

So rather than operate in a complete vacuum I tried to use common sense (I know this is frowned upon here but I can't help it) and extrapolation from existing rules to comes up with something not too prone to abuse without unnecessarily nerfing the character.

Why grant the IPs in animal form ? Well, the shifter IS a member of the specie in question that happens to be smarter and able to turn into a human, so I see no reason to nerf him on this specific point. Why not add IPs from an Adept power in this form ? Well, extra IPs from different sources usually don't stack. Say, as a theorical exercise, that an Adept with Improved Reflexes get implanted with Wired reflexes I and has a mage sustain Increase Reflexes on him, he would only get the best improvement of the three.

Why assign metahuman base IPs to the character while in human form even if he is has more as an animal ? Well, basically he now he IS a metahuman and no longer an animal. Maybe a bit tougher, stronger and/or faster than the metatype"s norm, but a metahuman, whith a very different anatomy and often more massive than his natural animal form.

Good day runners!
I have to agree that they would not retain the extra IP that the normal animal gets. The only stated out shifter i could find was from GC. Though they get the IP they also get some random power of concealment that along with the other discrepancy in the book makes me think that those should be considered unique critters.

I will explain to players that question this with the explanation that even though they are at base line a little less then there animal counterpart, they have the ability to increase their physical prowess whether through Magic or augmentation while in beast form. On top of that i would explain with their ability to shift they lose a little of the base creatures power.

They still turn out an amazing stat line PC with many unique and helpful features, and if that still is not enough i really feel that they would be missing the point of playing the game.

Unless AH remarks differently (or some other dev, but AH wrote the material) i will play these rules as written.