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kjones
I'll be starting up Ghost Cartels soon, and my players are in the process of running their characters by me before the first session. One of them is playing an ork phys ad - so far, so good.

My concern is that he is just a one-trick pony, and not a very useful one at that. He put ~320 BP into his stats (including Edge 5 and Magic 6) and took:
  • Unarmed Combat 6
  • Dodge 4
  • Pistols 2
  • Perception 2
  • Athletics SG 1


and that's it. His adept powers are:

  • Critical Strike 3
  • Improved Reflexes 2
  • Penetrating Strike 3
  • Mystic Armor 2
  • Combat Sense 2


For gear, he took an armored jacket, an Ares Predator, a commlink, and nothing else.

My concern is twofold. First of all, this is a pretty one-dimensional build, and seeing as this player's last character was (sigh) a sociopathic street samurai, I'm concerned that he's not really interested in deeply developing a character. Second of all, a character who can only do unarmed melee combat, and nothing else, will probably be bored whenever the situation doesn't call for that. I suppose you could say the same thing about a dedicated hacker, or any other one-trick pony, but I wouldn't be crazy about those kinds of characters either, and I think a dedicated hacker is less likely to get himself killed. Let's face it, melee combat is almost always less useful than ranged combat, and a lot more dangerous to boot.

Should I talk to the player now, and tell him that I think he won't have much fun with his character? Or should I let him figure that out on his own?
Doc Chase
Talk to him now. He's not going to enjoy Ghost Cartels with a character like that.
Yerameyahu
Talk to him first. Tell him it's not approved, try again. smile.gif It doesn't have to be Hamlet, it just has to be playable.

Side note: a dedicated hacker is very versatile, because hacking is versatile.

And tell him not to hard-max anything. nyahnyah.gif
Doc Chase
Uh...Wouldn't the specials only add up to what, 105 at most? I think he may b eover his attribute cap.
Neraph
Magic cap 65, Edge cap 65. That's 130 at most. If 200 are spent in stats, that's 330 max.

EDIT: Looking at the 320 points again, maybe that's including racial cost?
Doc Chase
Yeah, but he didn't cap Edge. So he spent, what, 105? 40 for the Edge, 65 for the magic?

Edit: Ah, I see what I said. Yeah, the cap is 330, he spent 320, but he only spent 105 on specials, leaving 215.

What I said was:
QUOTE
What's the maximum special BP cap?


What I meant was:
QUOTE
How much did he spend there?


I am so tired. nyahnyah.gif

2nd edit: Could be. I wanna see what the stats are now, since there isn't much else to the character, amirite? biggrin.gif
kjones
Full stats are:
  • Bod 6
  • Agi 5
  • Rea 4
  • Str 7
  • Cha 2
  • Int 3
  • Log 2
  • Wil 3
  • Edge 5
  • Magic 6


As I count, that comes out to 315 for an ork.
Neraph
Orks are 20. 105 for special attributes. He's got 5 points floating somewhere that's unaccounted for. Did he cap another attribute?

25 for capping 1 attribute.
170 for other stats.
65 for Magic
40 for edge
20 for Ork.

320.

EDIT: oh, that "~" was throwing us off.

But yeah, talk to him and tell him that a purely "punch things" character in an adventure that has talking and legwork (and guns) won't be fun.
Critias
Remind him that even Eliot from Leverage has to fill in for someone else or help out the rest of the team with something besides ass-kicking, every now and then. Reassure him that even with a few points spent elsewhere his character will still be a brawling badass, and make some suggestions about how/where he could spend the points to round out his character a little.
Doc Chase
That solves the mystery.

I just...There's something about this character that just shouts 'wrongbad' to me. Sure, a start like this will make a fantastic generalist later since it's cheaper to boost skills, but you have to survive to get the karma and I'm not sure he'd make it far past the gang-bangers.
kjones
QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 25 2010, 11:22 PM) *
Remind him that even Eliot from Leverage has to fill in for someone else or help out the rest of the team with something besides ass-kicking, every now and then. Reassure him that even with a few points spent elsewhere his character will still be a brawling badass, and make some suggestions about how/where he could spend the points to round out his character a little.


This is exactly what I did, sans the Leverage reference because I know he wouldn't get it. Honestly, if he put a couple of points into Infiltration, he'd be a much better character - having somebody who can sneak in without tripping the MAD scanners is often handy. Or Disguise, so he can pose as the janitor and bust out his kung fu when they least expect it. Or... or anything! Anything at all!

QUOTE
I just...There's something about this character that just shouts 'wrongbad' to me. Sure, a start like this will make a fantastic generalist later since it's cheaper to boost skills, but you have to survive to get the karma and I'm not sure he'd make it far past the gang-bangers.


This isn't the kind of player who thinks about stuff like where he's going to spend karma in advance.
Yerameyahu
Planning to generalize later is nearly cheating anyway. biggrin.gif Hehe.
Cain
I wouldn't worry about a sociopathic character personality. Ghost Cartels lends itself to amoral shadowrunners, instead of the Robin Hood type.
kjones
QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 26 2010, 12:42 AM) *
I wouldn't worry about a sociopathic character personality. Ghost Cartels lends itself to amoral shadowrunners, instead of the Robin Hood type.


Sociopathy is not a problem in and of itself, but the character was completely one-dimensional. His reaction to everything was generally "Don't fuck with me." This caused no end of trouble with Johnsons and the like, to the extent that the player was probably more of a liability to the group than an asset - I think some of them wanted to stop running with him, but we're former D&D players and in D&D, you don't split the party.

But really, the character was just kind of a jerk, and I don't think anyone had fun role-playing interactions with him.

My game will be working a little differently, though - the team is deep undercover for Lone Star, trying to trace tempo back to the source.
suoq
Are you going to enjoy GMing this campaign with this character? Sounds like No.

Are the other players going to enjoy this campaign with their characters having to play with his character? Sounds like No.

All of you have to tell him this. All of you.

And if he gets with the program, congratulations. If not, well, you told him.

Eventually one of three things will happen.

1) He'll get with the program.
2) He'll get kicked to the curb.
3) Your group will just quit playing.

Best of luck.
Yerameyahu
Perennial problem of roleplaying: other people. biggrin.gif
Mooncrow
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 26 2010, 12:17 AM) *
Perennial problem of roleplaying: other people. biggrin.gif


Just go log into World of Warcraft for a bit, sit in the Barrens or tradechat for a few hours - then come back to your tabletop group knowing that you play with a bunch of wonderful human beings that you love and cherish wink.gif
Voran
Its like that old adage about the toolkit, if the only tool you have in your toolbox is a penis then you'll want to...wait...wait...no that's not right.

Seriously though, I'm all for having characters that can survive in combat, even thrive in it, but it should also come with theunderstanding that even if you're not the primary social character, the game isn't 24-7 combat, so there's going to be a lot of time you won't be able to do much, unless you've got the skills to contribute. You'll be sitting at the table reading Arsenal or something while the rest of the group is doing legwork and interactions, cause with low social/mental skills, you can't really contribute that much even if using the teamwork rule. Heck, you might make things worse.

Neraph
Ask him questions. Such as:

1) People are on a balcony and they're shooting at you. What do you do?

2) There's a guard at the front gate and you know his biomonitor is hooked up to the security system. How do you get past him?

3) You need to get a taxi. How do you purchase a ride without a SIN?

4) There are flying drones shooting at you.

5) You need to deal subdual damage. Unless he has Killing Hands, he's got a problem.

EDIT: Hopefully having him think about these questions will cause him to take another look at his character.

Forgot to close the concept. I should get some sleep.
Cain
QUOTE (kjones @ Aug 25 2010, 08:50 PM) *
Sociopathy is not a problem in and of itself, but the character was completely one-dimensional. His reaction to everything was generally "Don't fuck with me." This caused no end of trouble with Johnsons and the like, to the extent that the player was probably more of a liability to the group than an asset - I think some of them wanted to stop running with him, but we're former D&D players and in D&D, you don't split the party.

But really, the character was just kind of a jerk, and I don't think anyone had fun role-playing interactions with him.

My game will be working a little differently, though - the team is deep undercover for Lone Star, trying to trace tempo back to the source.

Even then, it sounds like more a roleplaying skill deficit than a character personality problem.

One dimensional characters can be a lot of fun, in the hands of the right player. We've all got stories about Uncouth Trolls that try and negotiate their way past a Johnson, and fail humorously. If he's not actively causing a problem, and his character is skilled enough to earn a place on the team, I'd just ignore it until it becomes a real problem. He just needs to learn roleplay skills, and that he'll get from watching an excellent gaming group in action. If none of the other PC's want to talk with him, that's fine-- eventually, the player will see what he's missing and come around.

QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 25 2010, 09:03 PM) *
Are you going to enjoy GMing this campaign with this character? Sounds like No.

Are the other players going to enjoy this campaign with their characters having to play with his character? Sounds like No.

All of you have to tell him this. All of you.

And if he gets with the program, congratulations. If not, well, you told him.

Eventually one of three things will happen.

1) He'll get with the program.
2) He'll get kicked to the curb.
3) Your group will just quit playing.

Best of luck.

Is this guy causing active problems: Sounds like No.

Is this guy going to cause active problems for the other players: Sounds like No.

I don't believe in forcing players to magically develop skills they don't have is a smart decision. A lot of us game with friends, and that's a good way to start losing friends.
Fauxknight
My problem is that for being a one dimensional character, hes not even very good. He could easily be overshadowed by another adept or a street sam who has both versatility and is at least as good at unarmed combat as he is. Dude totally needs some min/maxing lessons.
Hedrik
Everytime I see such a char, I talk to my player telling him my concerns and if he still wants to play it, I'll let him. He'll just has to live (or die) with the consequences.
Makki
if he's the worlds leading unarmed combat fighter, why would he work for LS? why would LS hire someone unable to teamplay or intimidate? why would LS hire someone for an undercover job without Disguise and Infiltration skills? your player will have to give you really detailed and concluding answers...

furthermore, we did'nt really have many fighting scenes in our GC sessions. you may tell him, to not come or not bring his character to about half your sessions, 'cause he won't be usefull or needed
Doc Chase
Were it my character?

He was picked up by LS on the underground fighting circuit in an illegal bout. He was down on his luck, had maybe two electrons to rub together, and they made him an offer.

He'd be the undercover team's enforcer, and decoy. They'd give him a direction, some supplies confiscated off other mooks and he could keep what they were paid by the Cartels when it came to it. He provides enough cred to the team that they'd be in for sure - what kind of law enforcement outfit would hire this guy in the first place?

Make a show of dropping him off after beating the crap out of him (because he's SINless, that's what happens) and people won't question a lack of a criminal SIN.
suoq
QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 26 2010, 12:49 AM) *
Is this guy causing active problems: Sounds like No.

Is this guy going to cause active problems for the other players: Sounds like No.

QUOTE
I think some of them wanted to stop running with him, but we're former D&D players and in D&D, you don't split the party.

But really, the character was just kind of a jerk, and I don't think anyone had fun role-playing interactions with him.
Doc Chase
Emphasis on think.

It's not what you do, it's what you can prove!
suoq
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 26 2010, 09:30 AM) *
Emphasis on think.

It's not what you do, it's what you can prove!

I may be off here, but I think the goal is to reduce the situation before proof (such as people quitting) actually happens.

If my child thinks he needs to go to the bathroom, I don't want him to prove it. Thinking is good enough for me.

^ The above is meant as silliness. I know, I know, Dumpsock is serious business. nyahnyah.gif ^
Doc Chase
biggrin.gif That pressure in his gut is all the proof I ever need.

In this case, I'd just want to make sure of it, especially as if it's a group of pals then someone's going to get ticked off. Had that happen in my game recently, which is why I'm back on the GM wagon and off the player one for a while.
Kruger
QUOTE (Makki @ Aug 26 2010, 04:06 AM) *
furthermore, we did'nt really have many fighting scenes in our GC sessions. you may tell him, to not come or not bring his character to about half your sessions, 'cause he won't be usefull or needed
Unfortunately, players who make characters like that find a way, or create a way, to be needed far too often.
tete
Have him a. answer the 20 questions in RC for 20 karma that he can spend (offer this option to everyone) or b. pick a main movie character and build that you can then point out that characters non-combat skills or c. move to karma build.

Really though if everyone got 20 karma to round out their character you'll get some more diversity.
jakephillips
Yea I never seem to have much luck talking a character out of playing something that is really optimized.
This time we all made characters together and put up a checklist up on the white board everyone needs to sneak, shoot, have etiquette so you can blend in, climb a fence, swim, so athletics, and be able to drive something, and defend yourself in hand to hand and a fake sin. Not huge skill ratings just be able to be passable.

I ended up with an ork hacker who is an adept who was super optimized not to die... 5 levels of combat sense yes that is 2.5 magic points and two levels of mystic armor for one more point, extra inititave passes nooooo that would be silly, a few extra hacking dice yes.
Comlink upgrades.... NO
Fake sin... No
shoot people... no
talk to people... no
climb fence... no

So after three runs where he spend every round of shooting going on full defense the rest of the players tried to talk to him. Not doing much on hacking since his comlink sucked he spend most of his time reading shadowrun books they asked why they should be splitting the job with him if he is not contributing. I essentially had to tell him that the Johnson Big Jim would not call him for the next job so he should make a more balanced character.

We will see how that goes tomorrow the next day my game runs.
jakephillips
Oh and he tried to go to a meet with a johnson downtown in an AA neighborhood with no SIN. Can I just whip one up on the fly...? NO
Cain
QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 26 2010, 07:53 AM) *
I may be off here, but I think the goal is to reduce the situation before proof (such as people quitting) actually happens.

Mildly irritating to be around isn't enough to force a player to change his character concept. I've seen many "well-rounded" characters who caused more problems than that.

This sounds like a player problem. Trying to fix the character won't help; you need to discuss things with the player. And then, only if he's causing "real" problems, not just: "He sucks!"
Yerameyahu
In fairness, him sucking *is* a real problem.
tagz
Communication with the player is important. I had a couple of these very chats a little while back.

I basiclly said this:

"I want you to have fun. I'm worried your character isn't going to be fun. It is hyper-specialized and is only situationally useful at BEST. I want you to spend a few minutes thinking about what he'll do when that situation isn't possible or isn't how the group decides to go about things. If you still want to play this you can, I want people to play what they want to, but just think about it a little."

Next day the character was scrapped and a much more rounded and versatile character was made. One that still very much kicks ass.
Critias
Some of you guys are acting like communicating with a player is the same as punching his mom in the boob. Playing an RPG is a group activity, and a collaborative effort. It shouldn't be that big a deal for a GM and a player to get together and share thoughts on a character...in fact, it should be a big deal when that doesn't happen.

Obviously you don't want to approach him with a print-out of this thread rolled up like an impromptu club, beating him with it, calling him a bad dog, and shouting "DUMPSHOCK THINKS YOU'RE STUPID!" But just talking to the guy as a GM and expressing a concern shouldn't be the end of the friggin' world.
kjones
QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 26 2010, 09:25 PM) *
Some of you guys are acting like communicating with a player is the same as punching his mom in the boob.


I just shot Dr. Pepper out of my nose.
Mooncrow
QUOTE (kjones @ Aug 26 2010, 09:36 PM) *
I just shot Dr. Pepper out of my nose.


Mt. Dew here, but same effect^^

Well said wink.gif
Yerameyahu
Well, clearly we have very different gaming groups. Excuse me, I have to practice my boob-punching for next session…
Kruger
Yeah, you have to remember that it isn't out of line for a GM to say "This is how it's going to be in my game." After all, it's your game, and you're doing all the work. I know I wouldn't go through nearly the efforts I do in my current game if the players were just going to say "Fuck yooooo!!!! to the tone and characters and setting I've created. I told people what I was going to run and how it was going to be done when we started our current non-Shadowrun game. They thought my game sounded fun, so we went with it. If they had said no, we would have played something else, and I'd have hours of free time back. wink.gif

This player will either respect the fact that maybe his character isn't right for your game, or you might well just shed yourself a problem player/character.
Kovu Muphasa
The only thing I realy see it his the Improved Reflexes, how does it match up to the rest of the group.
If he is running around with 3 action and everyone has only 1 or 2 that can be a problem.

I have been playing in it for a while and here are my observations.

As far as Combat Monsters go, just tell him if he does not diversify a little he is going to be board out of his scull during some of the missions. From what I recall there are at least 3 Missions where the only skill on his list he will use will be Perception. Let him know this and he may be more open to diferent skills.

Yerameyahu
At the very least, get a good commlink and some pirated programs. You don't even need Logic, and your Hacking skills can be like 1 or 2. smile.gif (As an example of an easy secondary; I'm not saying he should be a kung-fu hacker.)
Blastula
If he's adamant, you could just show him movie clips about what always happens to the guy that brings a knife to a gunfight. Having your torso perforated can be a life changing experience.
Kruger
Everyone always forgets the key detail of the "bringing a knife to a gunfight" scene. Make sure the guy with a knife doesn't have a friend with a machinegun behind you. wink.gif
suoq
I'm looking forward to the movie about bringing knives to a gunfight.

http://www.vivamachete.com/
Neraph
QUOTE (Kovu Muphasa @ Aug 26 2010, 09:22 PM) *
The only thing I realy see it his the Improved Reflexes, how does it match up to the rest of the group.
If he is running around with 3 action and everyone has only 1 or 2 that can be a problem.

I fail to see how that's a problem.
Yerameyahu
You do fail! wink.gif The problem can be that the other players get annoyed, that's all.
Neraph
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 26 2010, 11:52 PM) *
You do fail! wink.gif The problem can be that the other players get annoyed, that's all.

Actually in my experience the person with 3 or 4 IPs gets annoyed that the opposition dissapears before they get their 3rd IP.
Yerameyahu
Exactly: now *no one* is happy. smile.gif It's the same in all games: the guy who invested in the horse doesn't get to travel any faster than the rest of the group, and if you're the only character with darkvision, someone will just find a torch. frown.gif

Seriously though, Shadowrun's not too bad for that. We're all used to the hacker leaving and the mage leaving and the sam going full berserker. smile.gif Maybe newbies aren't?
Makki
did you ask the group, if their SCs are willing to share money with somebody who's only contributing 20-40% ? i can think of some of my chars who will show him a 'get-lost-we-dont-need-you'-attitude after about three sessions. He'd probably disagree, but unfortunaly he's unable to express it
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