Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Vehicle Stats for a Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Gamer6432
Any thoughts? The SR4 Core book and Arsenal don't have anything even close, and I couldn't find something comparable in older edition books. My Shadowrun group is contemplating stealing one during our upcoming adventure that takes us through Miami.
Makki
there's no spirit big enough to use Movement...
Yerameyahu
What stats do you need, exactly? It's a building that floats.
Gamer6432
Mostly looking for Body (for mod purposes) and speed.
Larsine
Body = Big
Speed = Slow
suoq
There's the Marine Tech Sea Nymph. If you want something bigger just add as much body as you want and slice the speed down. A cruise ship will move at about 20 knots (roughly 10 meters per second or in shadowrun terms, a speed of 30) and has an insignificant amount of acceleration (I'd vote for a "1").

Feel free to check my math, rules interpretations, minimal research and blatant guesses.

Edit: For future reference it looks like 60 MPH is roughly a speed of 80. The Lone Star Mod. Honda 3240 will do 165 mph...
Dahrken
Speed of a typical ocean liner (the kind you find cruising today cruising the Carribean area, closs to 1.000 ft in length) is cruising around 20/25 mph with a top speed maybe 30/35 mph if pushing the machines hard and the ship is very lightly loaded - cruise speed is very close to top speed.

Acceleration/deceleration is sluggish - think miles to drop from full ahead to dead stop, and handling nothing to brag about, those vehicules makes wide turns.

What you player plan to do with such a naval beast is beyond me. It's too big to hide, too slow to run away, too expensive/distinctive to sell on the black market, and comes with a comparatively large crew (more than 1.000 persons for the largest, the majority taking care of the passengers) you need to take care of one way or the other.

Body for mods ? It's IMHO somewhat pointless. Engine or hull modifications are major engeneering tasks - the engine alone is the size of a small house and you need to cut the hull open to bring in spare parts for major repairs - that asks for a full-scale shipyard, and there is so much room that almost any number of minor mods can be fit inside.
CanRay
Think about how can you modify an office building.

Now put it on the ocean.

Have a nice day.
Gamer6432
The idea is to hide in plain sight. One character (rigger/hacker) has the idea to disguise the runner team as a movie production company. He also plans to replace the crew with Manservant drones where possible. I might try to convince him to scale it down some for a smaller boat (like a large yacht). And the team does include a character with engineering skills, so it's not outside the realm of the possible.
CanRay
A better idea might be a fishing boat or a freighter. There are a lot more of them on the ocean than a luxury liner.
suoq
QUOTE (Gamer6432 @ Aug 29 2010, 10:54 AM) *
The idea is to hide in plain sight. One character (rigger/hacker) has the idea to disguise the runner team as a movie production company.

The team will be stealing a Cruise Ship. taking it to Miami (Carribean League), where your goal is to attract attention to the stolen cruise ship by posing as a movie production company in what used to be a mob town run by Gunderson Corporation, a corporation that could use the money and favors of the kind of people who have enough money to afford a cruise ship in the first place and who probably won't be happy to discover they now have one less.

I can see why you need a cruise ship. A fishing boat isn't big enough to carry those big brass ones and stay afloat.
simplexio
I remember watching some tv show where they compared ocean liner and huge container cargo ship. Ocean Liner had something like 1000 crew member and cargo ship had 20 and we are talking one of the biggest ships in sea.
Vertaxis
QUOTE (Dahrken @ Aug 29 2010, 11:22 AM) *
Speed of a typical ocean liner (the kind you find cruising today cruising the Carribean area, closs to 1.000 ft in length) is cruising around 20/25 mph with a top speed maybe 30/35 mph if pushing the machines hard and the ship is very lightly loaded - cruise speed is very close to top speed.


The ships in the Carribean are Cruise Ships, not Ocean Liners. Ocean Liners are built stronger and to a higher engineering standard than Cruise Ships. Liners would have to ply the stormy seas of the North Atlantic and other open oceans, while cruise ships run for a safe port as in the relatively sheltered Carribean when severe weather is upon them.
Mayhem_2006
From Crackerjack's conversion pdf of SR3 vehicles:

Cunard "Princess Victoria" Liner: Handling -2 ACC 2/10 Speed 50 Pilot 4 Body 22 Armour 8 Sensor 3 Avail - Cost 40 million

30 Basic living facilities (for the crew), 200 improved, 100 high.

***

By the way, for a (slightly dated) account of how to hikack an cruise ship or liner, try "The QE2 is Missing" by Harry Harrison. How applicable it would be in the days of automatic satellite monitoring, IDK.

A short term hijack to rip off all the passengers might be worth pursuing, though - but then again, you have a ship full of people that can afford a luxury cruise, its an obvious target for pirates and you can be sure that the company *knows* that and have taken plenty of precautions...

Dahrken
QUOTE (Vertaxis @ Aug 29 2010, 07:54 PM) *
The ships in the Carribean are Cruise Ships, not Ocean Liners. Ocean Liners are built stronger and to a higher engineering standard than Cruise Ships. Liners would have to ply the stormy seas of the North Atlantic and other open oceans, while cruise ships run for a safe port as in the relatively sheltered Carribean when severe weather is upon them.

The difference is somewhat blurred today. While a "pure" ocean liner is likely to be faster (cruising speed closer to 30/35 than 20/25) and more slender, the general outline is similar and stealing one pose the sames challenges.

Keep in mind that today one of those ships has a price of several hundreds millions of dollars, and is designed to carry over 1.000 crew members and 2.000 to 3.000 passengers.

Considering the amount of capital invested and the safety precautions likely to be included to protect it, stealing one is IMHO totally out of reach of what a team of shadowrunners can manage, even a very high-powered team.
Dahrken
QUOTE (Mayhem_2006 @ Aug 29 2010, 09:18 PM) *
From Crackerjack's conversion pdf of SR3 vehicles:

Cunard "Princess Victoria" Liner: Handling -2 ACC 2/10 Speed 50 Pilot 4 Body 22 Armour 8 Sensor 3 Avail - Cost 40 million

30 Basic living facilities (for the crew), 200 improved, 100 high.

Room for about 300 passengers ? This is defintively on the small side for a cruise ship or liner.

Also the crew seems rather understaffed, even counting on extra automation - most of the personnel on those ships is not here to operate it, but rather to pamper the passengers - today the ratio is more like 1 crew for 3 passengers, or even more for the most luxurious (and expensives).
Gamer6432
QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 29 2010, 09:55 AM) *
The team will be stealing a Cruise Ship. taking it to Miami (Carribean League), where your goal is to attract attention to the stolen cruise ship by posing as a movie production company in what used to be a mob town run by Gunderson Corporation, a corporation that could use the money and favors of the kind of people who have enough money to afford a cruise ship in the first place and who probably won't be happy to discover they now have one less.

I can see why you need a cruise ship. A fishing boat isn't big enough to carry those big brass ones and stay afloat.

Never said it was a good idea, or that it would work. Just asked for stats for a general idea.

And thanks, Mayhem_2006
Yerameyahu
You're going to mod a cruise ship? Oh jeez. It's a building that floats! You can do anything to it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 29 2010, 03:17 PM) *
You're going to mod a cruise ship? Oh jeez. It's a building that floats! You can do anything to it.


Indeed... wobble.gif
Yerameyahu
Assume that you can do anything that doesn't affect the 'combat stats' (movement, armor, etc.), and that you can't do anything that does.
Mooncrow
Yeah, basically it comes down to SR4 vehicle stats not working well at edge cases, in this case, anything larger than a medium size yacht.

If you really want to go by rules, you're better off to converting to the rules from Rigger 3, and using the tables in the back to build your own. As mentioned earlier, the example liner in that book would be extremely tiny by today's standards at least. Probably go with a Heavy Merchantman as the base instead, and build from there.
Mayhem_2006
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 29 2010, 10:17 PM) *
You're going to mod a cruise ship? Oh jeez. It's a building that floats! You can do anything to it.


Time to give it the "Walker" upgrade then sell tickets for luxury cruises in the Sahara!
Yerameyahu
Psh, that's what hover-land-ships are for. smile.gif
Straight Razor
just took a cruse actually. loads of fun. carnival cruse i just learned actually has a yearly cruse just for gamers.

i was on a "small ship" only 3K passengers, and ~800 crew. {majesty of the seas}

====

here are the stats for the current largest cruse ship. and as they are only making them bigger, by 2065 this will be a small ship.

lass and type: Oasis class cruise ship
Tonnage: 225,282 GT[1]
Length: 360 m (1,181 ft) overall[7]
Beam: 47 m (154 ft) waterline
60.5 m (198 ft) extreme[7]
Height: 72 m (236 ft) above water line[8]
Draught: 9.3 m (31 ft)[7]
Depth: 22.55 m (74 ft)[7]
Decks: 16 passenger decks[2]
Installed power: 3 × Wärtsilä 12V46D engines (13,860 kW/18,590 hp each)
3 × Wärtsilä 16V46D engines (18,480 kW/24,780 hp each)[8][9]
Propulsion: 3 × 20 MW ABB Azipod, all azimuthing[8]{electric motors drive the prop}
Speed: 22.6 knots (41.9 km/h; 26.0 mph)[2]
Capacity: 5,400 passengers at double occupancy; 6,296 maximum[2]
Crew: 2,165[2]

I could only think that all cruse ships in SR will have serious ani ship to ship weapons, and a rather well trained secruity team of 8 to 12 NPC's of higher than starting PC skill and well funded.

not even thinking of all the ships AI, and fail safe protocols for having the ship remote controlled.
CanRay
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 29 2010, 05:29 PM) *
Psh, that's what hover-land-ships are for. smile.gif

Giant Caterpillar Treads?

A massive rail line?

Pneumatic tube?

Just pulled across by an army of enslaved trolls?
Mooncrow
QUOTE (Badmoodguy88 @ Aug 30 2010, 02:29 AM) *


Heh, that part of the movie inspired more than a few similar things in various games I've run.

Something about it just fires the imagination^^
Makki
i heard the rigger wanted to add polymer coating to the ship. body x 2k it is I think. so body=500?
suoq
Dikote the ship, get it up to full speed, turn off the wireless, and set it to ram right through Biscayne Bay, taking out all the bridges, until it finally smashes into the Haulover Beach Golf Club.

A dikoted cruise liner moving at 35 mph should cut through that section like a hot knife through butter.
hobgoblin
reminds me of the most common reaction to the supercarrier stats in rigger3, "carriers are something one do runs in, not with!".
Summerstorm
That depends on the run...

Also: For the body... wouldn't it be better to have a sum and for damage issues have sectors? Like Body 20 or so?
Gamer6432
QUOTE (Makki @ Aug 30 2010, 04:33 AM) *
i heard the rigger wanted to add polymer coating to the ship. body x 2k it is I think. so body=500?

Knowing our Rigger, that will probably come up...
CanRay
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Aug 30 2010, 08:47 AM) *
For the body... wouldn't it be better to have a sum and for damage issues have sectors? Like Body 20 or so?

That would make more sense, and allow the ship to be blown up a piece at a time.

Then again, a few good shots under the waterline, and "Glug glug glug".

I say a few, but it might only require one big hole if the ship was built on the cheap.
Yerameyahu
Does SR4 actually have rules for sinking watercraft?
hobgoblin
Nope, but i think the Rigger3 rules should be easy to port if one have that book on hand.

Hell, that rules set could allow you to run a naval campaign if you liked paperwork...
TommyTwoToes
QUOTE (Gamer6432 @ Aug 29 2010, 10:54 AM) *
<snip>
And the team does include a character with engineering skills, so it's not outside the realm of the possible.


It takes several folks with some engineering skills just to operate the ship. If you want to make any signifigant modifications you will need dozens of workers and some serious facilities.
TommyTwoToes
QUOTE (Straight Razor @ Aug 29 2010, 09:54 PM) *
<snip>
I could only think that all cruse ships in SR will have serious ani ship to ship weapons, and a rather well trained secruity team of 8 to 12 NPC's of higher than starting PC skill and well funded.

not even thinking of all the ships AI, and fail safe protocols for having the ship remote controlled.


I think it would be more effective to have an escort or two to keep threats away from the cruise ship. You do not want the cruise ship iteslf with its ritzy passengers to be doing any fighting. Folks on a cruise are probably paying to get away from the bunker mentality of their corp enclaves, not trade one bunker for another.

Just have a small escort vessel that is a drone carrier nearby to detect and respond to threats that are miles away from your paying passengers and you save lots of upset and money.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (TommyTwoToes @ Aug 30 2010, 05:39 PM) *
It takes several folks with some engineering skills just to operate the ship. If you want to make any signifigant modifications you will need dozens of workers and some serious facilities.

Depends, modern cargo ships can survive with just a couple of highly educated people (captain, maybe first officer, chief engineer).

The rest can be trained monkeys. Hell, recently i heard of companies considering going back to having someone run around to open close valves, as having the engine room wired for remote control was to up front expensive. It's the kind of stuff that makes you wonder about drones vs human labor and AAA's.
TommyTwoToes
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 30 2010, 10:47 AM) *
Depends, modern cargo ships can survive with just a couple of highly educated people (captain, maybe first officer, chief engineer).

The rest can be trained monkeys. Hell, recently i heard of companies considering going back to having someone run around to open close valves, as having the engine room wired for remote control was to up front expensive. It's the kind of stuff that makes you wonder about drones vs human labor and AAA's.

But a Shadowrun team will probably not have the manpower (skilled or unskilled) to perform the needed tasks for longer than a few hours. Keep in mind that a freighter has a lot fewer complex systems than an ocean liner. Inert cargo doesn't have the same climate control systems that the cruise liner will.

I remember from back in my Navy days that the biggest pain in the butt was the desalinization plant. Those bastards needed constant monitoring and fiddling to keep them going and producing fresh water. Now, the sub I was on was much older than the SR ships would be, hoever the SR ships are going to require ALOT more fresh water.
suoq
QUOTE (TommyTwoToes @ Aug 30 2010, 09:59 AM) *
howver the SR ships are going to require ALOT more fresh water.

On a ship that size, they just get the fresh water from the cold fusion plant.

I don't know WHY cold fusion would produce fresh water as a byproduct, but 6th World, 2027, Los Angeles says it does.
TommyTwoToes
QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 30 2010, 11:14 AM) *
On a ship that size, they just get the fresh water from the cold fusion plant.

I don't know WHY cold fusion would produce fresh water as a byproduct, but 6th World, 2027, Los Angeles says it does.

How much water would a shipboard plant make as a byproduct? One or 2 gallons a day maybe? The sub I was on had an evaporator for 20k gallons a day (of course that number is from memory, and 20 year old memory at that), for a crew of ~120. I bet the cruise ship is looking for 200k - 800k gallons a day.
sabs
In Arsenal page 115:

Celebrian Striker
-2 10/20 50 1 30 20 3 26F 2.2MY

I would imagine a cruise ship to have a 50 body give or take, and roughly 10 armor.
something like:
-6 8/15 40 4 50 10 3 30 2.2MY

A greyhound sized bus has a 20 body, and the striker 30. If you think of multiples of 10 body as a major size increase. A Cruise ship feels like it should have a 50, and an ocean liner a 60-70, tanker 80.

As for water:
You want
2G/P for drinking
20G/P for shower
5G/P for cooking
5G/P for cleaning

so roughly 32G/P a day
But that's bare minimum. A Luxury liner would probably err on twice that.
64G/P/D * 1000. So somewhere around 64K gallons a day, probably 70K
Though this is Shadowrun, I suspect they've got that figured out smile.gif

Straight Razor
QUOTE (TommyTwoToes @ Aug 30 2010, 10:44 AM) *
I think it would be more effective to have an escort or two to keep threats away from the cruise ship. You do not want the cruise ship iteslf with its ritzy passengers to be doing any fighting. Folks on a cruise are probably paying to get away from the bunker mentality of their corp enclaves, not trade one bunker for another.

Just have a small escort vessel that is a drone carrier nearby to detect and respond to threats that are miles away from your paying passengers and you save lots of upset and money.



You are going to want to have a small elite HTR team on the ship to deal with the unexpected that can get on the ship.


Getting the most bang for you buck is what a cruse is all about, for both the passengers, and the curse line its self. They are a very middle class thing. The really rich do more exclusive things. So Fully manned escort ships seem a bit messy to me. Funny thing, while you on the ship you can really only see a small part of the ship. So, having rather large drone bays on the lower decks, and above the command tower, would be very effective.
sabs
I would imagine that in 2072, Piracy is something that Professional Cruiseship lines know how to handle.
Probably a combination of protection payments, and on board security.
hobgoblin
I wonder, will this ship have a full set of passengers? Or will it basically be a floating "base"?
Yerameyahu
Without hostages, it'll very quickly be an artificial reef if you try to make it a base. biggrin.gif
suoq
QUOTE (TommyTwoToes @ Aug 30 2010, 10:27 AM) *
How much water would a shipboard plant make as a byproduct?

As much as the gm handwaves it to. Much like the whole thing doesn't need a crew unless the gm says it does.

In a world where you can fit a supercomputer in a contact lens, making up a cruise ship is asking to leave reality as we know it far behind.
sabs
Honestly..
If I was running a cruise ship line.

Each ship would have:
A controlling Nexus with System 6, Pilot 5, Signal 8 (satellite uplink)
1 Engineer/Mechanic skill 4
1 Navigator/Rigger
1 Spyder
50-100 skillwired individuals that are chosen for their looks depending on the passenger manifest.
1 High Threat Response team
The right number of drones for cleaning, maintenance, and defense.

the skillwired individuals act as:
bartending, wait staff, cooking staff, cleaning staff(that drones can't do), supplemental security, supplemental engineering, entertainment, "entertainment".

The Spyder uploads the needed skillsofts/knowsofts depending on the needs of the crew/ship.




This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012