As I continue to read and absorb more of 4th edition I've had some trouble quite grasping some aspects of the new Matrix, which is a shame because I like the concept of AR and the evolution of "Web 2.0" they've done.

My biggest issue is figuring out how Nodes and how they work in a broader context. I get that a node is just about any server/commlink connected to the Matrix. My question is, why are persona limits on Nodes so low? I mean, the MAX a single Nexus can hold is fifty personas, a tiny number considering the massive amount of data going throughout the Matrix. Unless I'm not understanding it correctly, which I'm assuming I'm not, a node is the equivalent to a website and having only a dozen users or so being able access it without slowing down harkens more to the 1980s rather than the 2070s. Is there an example of a large system (like Jackpoint) in one of the modules because I'm starting to get frustrated as this is the most difficult nut to crack for me understanding the way Matrix 2.0 runs.

The persona limit is not about inbound persona, but about how many people can use the nexus to project a persona out onto the matrix.

Inbound persona is counted against the subscriptions limit, iirc.

Oh, and never ever confuse SR with real life + 50 years. SR computing had a major reset during crash 1.0, and even before that diverged from out timeline and thinking around the 80s or 90s (so no EFF, FSF or similar).

Ah ha! That makes WAY more sense! And no, I don't expect rl computing to EVER match Shadowrun, but it's an interesting "mirror" of our own with the concept of wireless and social networking. At least, I think so.

Also, don't forget that nexi can be clustered to combine their persona and processor limits into nodes with astronomical numbers of personas and subscriptions.

So, for instance, my character is running an AR-enhanced Matrix club with a capacity of 150 plus 50 staff (total of 200). Would seven NeoNet Office Genies (or equivalent) be about right?

There are 3 types of nodes: Nexi, Commlinks, and Peripheral nodes. Nexi can be identified by having a Persona Limit larger than 1. Commlinks are defined by having a Response, Signal, System, and Firewall stat. Peripheral nodes are identified as having a Device Rating.

The Nexi has a Persona Limit of 20. Personas are Constructs (Unwired p51). Constructs are any program that can be a container for runnable programs. This includes the user persona (let's call it an Avatar to avoid confusion) or B) an autonomous program utilizing a Pilot (AI decision making program), usually called an Agent.

When two nodes, let's call them Alice and Bob, are talking, they are Subscribed to each other. Any node has a Subscription limit of System*2. For most Matrix actions, Alice and Bob can talk using Data Requests (Unwired p54). However, if Alice wants to use one of Bob's Programs (as opposed to one of her own), that requires an additional Subscription. There are a number of other actions that require Subscriptions (Unwired p55).

Slaving your smartlink to your commlink is a way of connecting 2 nodes (a peripheral and a commlink) into a single Area Network. Clustering is a way to combine a number of nodes into a larger node with some special rules (Unwired p55).

I think I got off track there a little bit. To answer your question: Data requests don't take much time, so you can treat a Nexi has being able to have an infinite list of subscriptions, but only Persona Limit*2 of these can be active at any moment. It can also host up to Persona Limit autonomous Agents (so the hacker can send an Agent to read up on Futurama episodes while still playing overwatch for the team) + Avatars (the Librarian and the Security Hacker, for instance).

Not only this, but as bandwidth / capability increase so too does user demand. I remember gaming online (text based MUDs) 15 years ago on a 2400 baud modem and having exactly the same level of frustration at my bandwidth limit as I do now with broadband.
Just thinking about how much bandwidth would be needed for simsense makes my soyteeth ache. There was a direct TV comercial that had a executive saying that they should run a comercial stating that their competion's High Def was running in 1,000,000p. You might run into such nonsense in SR.

Simon, you're not *quite* right on all those details, at least in terms of technical labels. I'm not saying you're confused, but I think your post could confuse others. I'm going to rephrase a little, so forgive repetition:

All nodes have hardware (Response, Signal) and OS (System, Firewall) stats, and there are three kinds of nodes (nexus, commlink, and peripheral). Nexi are big multi-user units with big Processor Limits; peripherals are just wireless-enabled miscellaneous devices (smartlink, fridge, RFID underwear, sensors; basically anything).

All nodes have Persona Limit and Processor Limit (effectively, # of running programs).

Persona Limit: as hobgoblin pointed out, the only thing this means is the number of users getting *online* from the node; nothing to do with incoming connections *from* the Matrix. For commlinks and peripheral nodes, this is 1 (note that peripheral nodes really can't even support 1 'typical user' in the first place, because of their limitations; they "have no Persona firmware", and can only run programs they're designed for). Agents are *not* personas and do not count toward this limit (personas are constructs, agents are constructs, but not all constructs are personas. )

Subscription Limit: this is a *per-Persona* limit, not a per-node limit. For commlinks, it's the same thing, but not for nexi. A nexus can logically have (Persona Limit)*(System) subscriptions active, because the limit is always (System) subscriptions per Persona. Note that you can exceed this limit; each extra subscription simply counts toward the Processor (running programs) Limit.

Also, slaving is just a security measure, forcing a (any) node to only listen to another (master) node, and ignore (basically) all other connections. It is not a requirement for a PAN or anything.

Also remember that the most common accesses to nodes are data requests, and those have no limit. So essentially you can imagine that the equivalent amount of interactions that in RL we do with a "website" would all be done through data requests without ever having to subscribe to a node. It's when you want to start reprogramming things on the node and other more involved tasks. Correct me if i'm wrong though, but I don't see any limit mentioned in the core rulebooks for how many persona's can be subscribed to a given node. I only see a limit to how many subscriptions to different nodes a given persona can have. When I subscribe to a node, i'm pretty sure that doesn't also mean that that node is subscribed to me. So essentially, as long as every persona is running off of a person's individual commlink, then if they all subscribe to a given node in the matrix, there is no limit to how many persona's can be "in" the node. Now if you want to run your persona and all your programs using the processor associated with that node, then there is a limit to how many persona's and programs that processor can handle. Someone please correct me if I have misunderstood the rules.

Ok, my head hurts. Lets see if I can't puzzle this all out.

NODE
ATTRIBUTES
Response
Signal
System
Firewall

Access ID
Persona Limit
Processor Limit

PERSONA
Access ID
Subscription Limit

Personas are Constructs, all Constructs require a Subscription, only Personas have Subscriptions, so a Persona has to Subscribe to itself? Agents only count against the Persona Limit when they are running autonomously, otherwise they are Subscribed to a Persona?

Nope, your 'local' persona doesn't require a subscription; it's local. *Sending* your persona somewhere else (technically, your icon?) does. Agents never count toward Persona Limit. Agents do require a subscription if you're controlling them remotely.

Inca, that sounds about right. Like you, I'm not sure if there's an 'incoming subscription' limit. I do think that a subscription between me and my drone counts for both of us, but I'm not sure if that logically works for the wider Matrix. If it did, the possibility of DDoS attack via subscription-filling would be a possibility, and that could be a problem (or, work fine; I'm not sure). In the absence of other info, go with the simpler option: unlimited incoming subscriptions.

Subscriptions are Two-way communications protocols, so yes, if you subscribe to a Node, it uses one of its subscriptions to communicate with you (and there are only 6 Cases that actually use up a Subscription Slot). Because it establishes two way communication, you need a subscription on both sides... an example of this is used when describing an Encrypted Signal; you Need to encrypt the subscription from BOTH sides of the conection, and since it requires it on both sides, it must use a subscription slot for both machines. (See 2nd Paragraph, Decryption Heading, Page 66, Unwired)

The vast number of things that you use your comlink for are simple Data requests, and you have an unlimited number of such connections. A great deal of traffic/control in the real world is actually handled as a Data Request in Shadowrun. See Pages 54-55 in Unwired for the distinction of what things take up Subscriptions and what do not...

I think someone mentioned that earlier, Tymeaus, but you're right: subscriptions are only required for certain things.

While it's obvious that subscriptions are two-way, the question is how do 'incoming' subscriptions affect a given node? The reason for the confusion is because Subscription Limit is a Persona feature, not a node feature. We can assume that a drone's Pilot counts as a Persona (even though we know it's not a persona); for nexi, it's even more unclear. Commlink-to-Commlink is the only situation that we can really be sure of.

as for DDOS, thats why a spider can block a accessid from gaining access.

or perhaps even by default deny all accessid's not on a specific list from gaining access (and that's when the hacker breaks out his spoof to set the accessid to one of them).

Right, move and countermove; as long as it's balanced, that's fine. It's not clear to me what rules would even be involved in such a situation, though: what's the Subscription Limit of a node with the paydata on it? There's not necessarily a good answer to that.

Sure, because Comlink to Comlink is the norm...

However... Nexi are run just like Standard Nodes, with only a few changes... First and Foremost, a Nexus' Processor Limit (The Number of Programs it can run simultaneously) is a range from 10 to 50... This is a Hard limit, and is not per persona... Nexi get to ignore the standard Node restrictions on processor limit (which normally is equal to Response). Secondly, it can have multiple Personae, which Standard Nodes cannot. They can have up to System x3 in Persona. And lastly, the Nexus' "System" is not capped by its Response. It still follows every other rule, including the number of Subscriptions that it possesses. (See Unwired, Page 50).

The big benefit of Nexi is greatly increased Persona and Processor Limits. Clustering a Bunch of Nexi together allows for truly astronomical amounts of Persona and Processor Limit (Should you really care, as incomming connections do not really matter, as they are usually Data Requests). However, this will not increase its Subscription limits. There are, of course, other ways to increase the number of Subscriptions you could use, but many do not bother, as the vast number of things that a system will handle are Data Requests... when you need a subscription, you just grab one for the short time you need and release it again... And on the odd chance that you exceed your subscription limit, you just eat into the Processor Limit... no big deal really.

The limit is what it needs to be to do its job, and absolutely no more than that... But, Just because a Subscription limit has been reached, it does not mean that further subscriptions are denied... they just begin to eat into the processor limit...

That's the point: it's not a DDOS until you start sludging the processor. Eating into processor limit is a huge deal; *the* whole point. It can't do that unless you know the limit, and you can't know the limit because Limit is a Persona attribute, not a node one. I mentioned earlier that you can multiply out the Persona Subs. Limit by the number of Personas the Nexus supports, but that's technically not what the rules are talking about; that's why I asked.

No, The Processor Limit, Persona Limit and Subscription Limit are all Hardware (They have nothing to do with individual personae)... You want to run a DDOS, you send a Hundred Subscription connections to the target node and see what happens, if it does not stop accepting subscriptions, send another hundred in, eventually, you will DDOS the System...

A Nexus with System of 10, Response 8, and a Processor Limit of 50 will take a Lot of subscriptions... Potentially as many as 420 (or so) before response is 0.

Where does it list Subscription Limit in the hardware?

Subscription Limit is a Limit imposed by System Rating (Software, but Device Attribute nonetheless) which is capped by Response (Hardware, and also a Device Attribute). Thus, Hardware limited. For a Nexus, Subscription Limits are still System x 2... It does not change from that of a Standard Node. What does change is the vast number of Processor Limit which is drawn upon once Subscription limit has been filled on a Nexus (System no longer has to be equal or less than Response either). A Standard Node (Comlink) with 6's across the board can have 47 Subscriptions before its Response is reduced to 0, barring any other running programs at the time (Which will limit on a one to one basis)... a Nexus can have 10 times that...

I asked where. My references say that subscription limit is derived from System, yes, and *per Persona* (as I mentioned a few times).

So where is the "Per Persona" quote... I can not find it, and the Nexi Rules are very adamant that the Subscription Limit is not based upon Personae, but strictly by System, based upon a Standard Node...

Again, where?

Just getting ready to post, and you beat me to it...
Yep found it (Damn Hard Bounds with limited Search Functions)... I happily retract my Hardware Comment.... but notice something here...

On a Nexus, if a Persona goes over his subscription limit, it pulls from the hardware Processor Limit from that point on... so (for example) a Nexi may have 3 personae, each with 12 Subscriptions, but once they have gone through their subscriptions (12 Each, 36 total), they begin to impact the response for the Nexus itself.

SO I still stand by my point... a Nexus can suck up (((Systemx2) x Personae) + (Processor Limit x Response)) Subscriptions before Response is reduced to 0... Not horrible, and is a difficult target for a DDOS attack, but it is still doable...

Nexi are nice, but are not as portable as Comlinks, especially high end ones in multiples.

So you suggest that the Subscription Limit of a *node* should simply be the maximum theoretical Persona total times their Subscription Limit? That seems the most reasonable to me. I just think it's odd that there's this hole in the rules. That's all I was getting at.

So, vehicles and commlinks are Standard Nodes (1 persona); nexi have their own rules clearly statted out; peripheral nodes… technically, they can't support any personas, but their Persona Limit is given as 1, IIRC. So they can support 1*(System*2) subscriptions before taking processor limit overflow. Seems workable, and now people have another hacking option.

I guess a peripheral node can support a persona, but the utility of such would be limited as the node could only run a limited (if any) set of programs.

Note that a persona is not a program, it's more like the interface of the system.

SR4A says that a peripheral node can't. But you're right: you'd be so limited even if you could.

Ugh, yet another area where unwired and SR4A contradicts. Hard to tell who is right as technically unwired is supposed to expand on the rules of SR4A...

Well, it hardly makes sense for a fridge or a camera to have the OS to let someone get onto the Matrix, right?

Hrmf, time for them to update the errata or faq then to clarify what book is correct.

It is annoying, but I really don't see the question coming up. The peripheral node lack of persona is what clustering is essentially *for*, although the situation in which you can't find a commlink and instead combine your fridge with your credstick is a little on the unlikely side.

Honestly, I don't see Persona Limit ever coming up with any kind of node. Everyone should have their own commlinks, for one thing, and when was the last time you needed two people to get online with the same device? That's what I don't understand about nexi being described as 'used for Matrix cafés' and thing. For me, the only reason nexi exist is huge Processor Limits.

Each Persona on a server has a different Access ID. If you have a server with 10 Personas, you can run 10 copies of the same Programs or Agents, which is much cheaper than having to buy the same rating Program or Agent 10 times to get different Access IDs.

No, because you'd need de-protected copies of them in the first place, and you can easily change the Access ID of an agent (other programs have no Access ID). (Note: 'easily' means 'for free', but it *is* patching and it does take time; use the crazy Programming Suite/Rush Job exploit.)

But in order for you to run your programs on the nexii, you need to be logged into it.
Lets be honest, the whole.. I'm haxoring your server, but all my programs are running on my personal commlink, and I'm editing files on yours without so much as a blip on your processing speed, is just weird.

Your persona should be using the resources of the node you're playing around in, at least in most cases.

I'm not sure how that's relevant to anything I said, but I'll go with it.

Agents do work that way. Logically, the current rules you describe are fine: you're just passing data back and forth, and doing the processing on your own machine. If you want, you could make a house rule that makes personas act like agents in this regard, but consider some consequences:

First, all hackers are limited in their fundamental gear (programs) by the target node. If you hack Joe Ganger's Meta Link, your Rating 6 programs are limited to Rating 1. Second, it's now much easier to eat up the processor limit of the target, with no effect on your own commlink; you're basically just sending them programs, scot free. These two are enough that I prefer the current rules; more fun for us.

Wait what? Where did you get that? It doesn't work that way. The programs run on YOUR comlink. You just send and receive from there (And bandwith is unlimited, so you will never get bogged down.)

Summerstorm, you have to actually read the posts, you know. I was describing the hypothetical consequences of sabs' suggested house rule, man.

Whoops... sorry got confused... Missed that post and just read yours. Just ignore me whenever i write something stupid... only listen to me when i am doing something awesome. *G*

Hehe, SOP for politicians that one.

You got that right...

k. Now walk me through tacsofts.

As I understand it, the people subscribed to the tacsoft use the tacsoft that's on that node, not their own tac soft.

So, if someone is running a tacsoft 3, it needs at least 5 people subscribed to it (to perform at that level) and they're running the software on that node using the response and system of that node (not their own). If it's running on a response/system 3 commlink then it can have (1*(System*2) subscriptions) 6 people subscribed to it before taking processor limit overflow.

A tacsoft 3 running on a response/system 4 could serve as many as 8 people.

1) Is the above correct?
2) In the case of a tacsoft. it seems like they're a prime target for a processor limit overflows, although I've forgotten if (by RAW) that even has an actual effect anymore.

Sadly, the only thing downgrading your response does is lower your matrix initiative. And not even significantly.

It's weird, each persona can have a number of subscriptions = system x 2
Commlinks can only have 1 persona.. so how do you hack someone's commlink if he's already in it?

suoq, you can use tacsofts in either configuration.

sabs, did you even read the thread? The persona limit is for *outgoing* personas (using the device to get online).

Shouldn't lowering response lower System and the max rating of all programs on the node (for commlinks, not nexi).

Silly me I was actually reading the subcription rules in the book.

Here's the relevant rules about Response/System and Max rating of all programs on the node.





Programs you can run are based on the System Rating
The System Rating is limited by the base response rating, not the current.
so even if you had so much running that your response was down to a 1, if you had a base response of 5, you would be running a 5 system, which means you could still run rating 5 programs. 19 of them to be exact

I did ask. There's a later rule that clearly says "this Response loss doesn't affect System rating", so of course you're right; I couldn't remember.

I'm sure I'm not the first to ask, 'what gives?', about that though. I guess it lowers your Initiative and your Cybercombat defenses; you'd also be vulnerable to Nuke? It also affects agents of all kinds. It still feels like response reduction should hurt a lot more. House rule…

Yes Yes it should
as it stands right now, why would anyone ever bother with building optimized software.
it's much easier just to buy a cranked up commlink.