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LukeZ
Sorry for the noob question, but how is the Drain Value for the Heal Spell calulated?
Doc Chase
IIRC, resist the damage you're healing -2, so...If you're healing 4P then it's resisting 2, then sustain it.
LukeZ
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Sep 2 2010, 03:18 PM) *
IIRC, resist the damage you're healing -2, so...If you're healing 4P then it's resisting 2, then sustain it.


So if the target has take 10 Stun Damage and 12 Physical Damage the Drain would be 20 (22-2)?
Doc Chase
Just physical, and it's based off the hits of the Spellcasting test.

You've got Magic 6, Sorcery 5 say, so that's 11 dice. We'll go without fetishes 'n foci for a second. You get...oh, say five hits.

Means you can heal 5 Physical from your mook, and you resist 3 Drain, and lose - I think - 5 Combat Turns to sustain by touch until the spell takes.

You'll want to use First Aid to bleed off the Stun before you use Heal to bleed off the Physical. Heal can only ever be used once for that set of injuries.
Summerstorm
Magic can not heal stun damage. Only physical counts. Only physical gets healed.

EDIT: Dang...
LukeZ
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Sep 2 2010, 04:44 PM) *
Just physical, and it's based off the hits of the Spellcasting test.

You've got Magic 6, Sorcery 5 say, so that's 11 dice. We'll go without fetishes 'n foci for a second. You get...oh, say five hits.

Means you can heal 5 Physical from your mook, and you resist 3 Drain, and lose - I think - 5 Combat Turns to sustain by touch until the spell takes.

You'll want to use First Aid to bleed off the Stun before you use Heal to bleed off the Physical. Heal can only ever be used once for that set of injuries.


Ah ok!
(I think it should be 6 combat Turns to sustain because it's double the Drain Value)

Thank you!
Doc Chase
QUOTE (LukeZ @ Sep 2 2010, 05:07 PM) *
Ah ok!
(I think it should be 6 combat Turns to sustain because it's double the Drain Value)

Thank you!


There you are - I never used Heal inside combat, so I'm shaky on sustaining rolls. Hope that helps!
Abstruse
Always use skill/medkit first for healing, then use magic. It'll reduce drain and it's the only way to get a second check on healing a wound.
Zolhex
If your wanting to play a full on healer you play a magic character with first aid & medicine.

First you first aid

Then you heal magic

then if you have the time needed you use medicine

You get to heal one set of injuries 3 times.
Summerstorm
But that isn't really neccessary. All characters in SR4 are regenerators. I have not seen applied medicine in my group even though we have someone have a decent skill in it. People just sleep things off on the couch and are back to normal a day after. *g*
TommyTwoToes
We always read the drain value for heal was the total physical damage on the character, not just the damage healed.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (TommyTwoToes @ Sep 2 2010, 08:30 PM) *
We always read the drain value for heal was the total physical damage on the character, not just the damage healed.


Could be. Book says it's Damage Value -2, so I always went with what successes were healed.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Sep 2 2010, 05:44 PM) *
Just physical, and it's based off the hits of the Spellcasting test.

You've got Magic 6, Sorcery 5 say, so that's 11 dice. We'll go without fetishes 'n foci for a second. You get...oh, say five hits.

Means you can heal 5 Physical from your mook, and you resist 3 Drain, and lose - I think - 5 Combat Turns to sustain by touch until the spell takes.
Nope, the drain is based of the damage the patient had before the healing attempt. The healer has to sustain the spell for 2*drain value combat turns. Instead of reducing physical damage hits can be used to reduce the sustaining time by 1 combat turn per hit.

QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Sep 2 2010, 05:44 PM) *
You'll want to use First Aid to bleed off the Stun before you use Heal to bleed off the Physical. Heal can only ever be used once for that set of injuries.
You'll generally want to use first aid before magic, because it cannot be used after the patient has been healed magically.
Abschalten
Just chiming in to say that to initiate the spell, you must touch the target. After you get the spell going, you can sustain it without needing to have your hands on them. All Health spells work that way. (Otherwise the more offensively-aligned Decrease (Attribute) spells, and the ability to cast Improved Reflexes on a buddy is sorta stupid and pointless.)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (TommyTwoToes @ Sep 2 2010, 01:30 PM) *
We always read the drain value for heal was the total physical damage on the character, not just the damage healed.


We do it this way as well... Could be read either way though...
tagz
I personally prefer having it deal the amount healed -2 rather then amount of damage taken -2. Mostly as it means you can select a lower Force Heal to control how much potential drain you could take by capping the max number of hits. It seems silly to me that casting the spell at Force 6 would create the same drain as casting it at Force 1, making it mechanically pointless to cast it at anything other then at your magic score or twice your magic score if you decided to take it in physical damage from overcasting.
Abschalten
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 2 2010, 10:47 PM) *
We do it this way as well... Could be read either way though...


I used to do it that way, but it totally disincentivizes a magician healing a buddy that's on death's door. "You're dying? Fuck that, I don't wanna join you!"
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Sep 2 2010, 08:45 AM) *
Magic can not heal stun damage. Only physical counts. Only physical gets healed.

EDIT: Dang...


Actually in 4th ed, there is nothing forbidding magic from healing stun.
Summerstorm
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Sep 3 2010, 06:25 AM) *
Actually in 4th ed, there is nothing forbidding magic from healing stun.


AHA... finaly i can prove something wrong. (ah sorry about that *g*)

SR20A Core, Page 207 Description of Health spells:

"No techniques currently known to magic can erase Stun damage or cure psychological conditions"

A bit further up it is stated what magic can do... only physical damage is mentioned. Stun cannot be cured.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Sep 2 2010, 10:01 PM) *
AHA... finaly i can prove something wrong. (ah sorry about that *g*)

SR20A Core, Page 207 Description of Health spells:

"No techniques currently known to magic can erase Stun damage or cure psychological conditions"

A bit further up it is stated what magic can do... only physical damage is mentioned. Stun cannot be cured.

It says its not presently being done, not it is unable to be done. I know a bit a splitting hairs, but speaking with the dev's a while about the actual differences (physiological) between stun and physical injuries, it was noted that there is no symptom of a stun injury which is not present in more profound detail and extent in a physical injury.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Sep 3 2010, 10:38 AM) *
It says its not presently being done, not it is unable to be done. I know a bit a splitting hairs, but speaking with the dev's a while about the actual differences (physiological) between stun and physical injuries, it was noted that there is no symptom of a stun injury which is not present in more profound detail and extent in a physical injury.
I could have sworn, that Street Magic says it's impossible, but I can't find it now.
IKerensky
We played it at Damage healed -2 wich is unsatisfying because it usually result in no-very low drain. I think Damage to be Healed -2 sound far better, will used it now.
Ranarion
You can Heal Stun Damage by Magic, it takes a while, and you must be an Adept, but then, there is a power for that.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Sep 3 2010, 01:45 AM) *
I could have sworn, that Street Magic says it's impossible, but I can't find it now.

I know it was impossible in atleast 3rd, and took the issue up with a dev about 4th, they pointed the rules didn't 'forbid' it, but simply say no one was doing it yet.
Dakka Dakka
Cool. I'll add that to my list of spells to make, right next to the Undetectable spell (Improved Invisibility for all senses). Too bad drain can't be healed as of SR4A.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Sep 3 2010, 04:19 AM) *
Cool. I'll add that to my list of spells to make, right next to the Undetectable spell (Improved Invisibility for all senses). Too bad drain can't be healed as of SR4A.

That's what they said. Drain could not be healed, but an SnS could.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Sep 3 2010, 04:19 AM) *
Cool. I'll add that to my list of spells to make, right next to the Undetectable spell (Improved Invisibility for all senses). Too bad drain can't be healed as of SR4A.

That's what they said. Drain could not be healed, but an SnS could.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Abschalten @ Sep 3 2010, 04:36 AM) *
I used to do it that way, but it totally disincentivizes a magician healing a buddy that's on death's door. "You're dying? Fuck that, I don't wanna join you!"

QFT.

In my game I've made it F-2 and that seems to be a doable balance.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Sep 3 2010, 05:25 AM) *
Actually in 4th ed, there is nothing forbidding magic from healing stun.


The description of the Heal spell flat out says it won't heal stun. Or are you talking magic in general?

Dakka Dakka
I like the interpretation that DV-2 is based on the damage the patient has sustained. Doing something for someone on death's door should be harder and thus more draining than helping someone with a scratch.

Don't you mean F/2 -2? Why would anyone cast heal over Force 5 unless he can consistently roll more than 5 hits?

@Doc Chase: He is talking about Magic in general.
TommyTwoToes
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Sep 3 2010, 09:19 AM) *
I like the interpretation that DV-2 is based on the damage the patient has sustained. Doing something for someone on death's door should be harder and thus more draining than helping someone with a scratch.

Don't you mean F/2 -2? Why would anyone cast heal over Force 5 unless he can consistently roll more than 5 hits?

@Doc Chase: He is talking about Magic in general.

And remember that the Stabilize spell is available too. It has drain based on boxes of Overflow, not total boxes taken.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Sep 3 2010, 02:19 PM) *
I like the interpretation that DV-2 is based on the damage the patient has sustained. Doing something for someone on death's door should be harder and thus more draining than helping someone with a scratch.

Don't you mean F/2 -2? Why would anyone cast heal over Force 5 unless he can consistently roll more than 5 hits?

@Doc Chase: He is talking about Magic in general.


Ahah! I'll start development on 'Acetometaphin' immediately.

The Heal spell is tricky - it doesn't get cast by Force at all in 4th. The rules for Health spells in general is that DV is based off hits/damage value/etc depending on how you look at it. Otherwise folks would be dropping overcast Heal spells at F10 and only suffering 3 drain.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Sep 3 2010, 03:24 PM) *
The Heal spell is tricky - it doesn't get cast by Force at all in 4th.
Of course it does, only the drain isn't based on force. You still have to choose a force to know how many hits are applicable.
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Sep 3 2010, 03:24 PM) *
The rules for Health spells in general is that DV is based off hits/damage value/etc depending on how you look at it.
Actually it is only the Heal Spell and the Stabilize Spell, which aren't based on Force.
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Sep 3 2010, 03:24 PM) *
Otherwise folks would be dropping overcast Heal spells at F10 and only suffering 3 drain.
As above you only benefit from Force 10 if you generate more than 9 hits. Force 5 should be enough for all but the most specialized mages or lucky Edge users.
Doc Chase
'Kay, whatever.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Sep 3 2010, 07:17 AM) *
The description of the Heal spell flat out says it won't heal stun. Or are you talking magic in general?

Magic in general.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Sep 3 2010, 02:19 PM) *
I like the interpretation that DV-2 is based on the damage the patient has sustained. Doing something for someone on death's door should be harder and thus more draining than helping someone with a scratch.

Don't you mean F/2 -2? Why would anyone cast heal over Force 5 unless he can consistently roll more than 5 hits?

@Doc Chase: He is talking about Magic in general.

F/2 -2 for Heal is too easy-going. Any caster able to reliably resist two points of drain (i.e. almost all of them) could potentially heal up to eight boxes of damage and expect to come out unscathed.

It's out of keeping with drain in general, but I think a 1-to-1 ratio between Force and Drain is appropriate given that you get a discount, you can make it stun damage and you have the option of not doing it at all (a choice that the victim probably didn't get in the first place).
yesferatu
I'm perfectly fine with F/2 -2.
It's sustained over a number of turns and it's not harmful.
Sure, it's useful, but it's not a combat spell.
Most of the big drain spells (the +3's and +5's) are things AOE or ranged energy combat spells or armor.

I'm not sure how much sense it makes to punish a healer for healing.
From a fluff standpoint, it makes sense for a massive toxic wave to take its toll on a caster, while a healing spell would be much less harsh.

Most characters are going to heal fully between runs anyway.
It's only really useful for extended runs and on the spot healing.
Hell, most stun damage doesn't last more than a couple hours.
Aerospider
QUOTE (yesferatu @ Sep 8 2010, 10:37 PM) *
I'm not sure how much sense it makes to punish a healer for healing.

Fair point, but it's not as though Heal is nothing more than an alternative to carrying around a heavy medkit. It has important advantages that need to be balanced, not least the fact that it doesn't run out of supplies.

QUOTE (yesferatu @ Sep 8 2010, 10:37 PM) *
Hell, most stun damage doesn't last more than a couple hours.

Which is even more reason not to let the drain be too low. Converting a lot of physical damage into a little stun is very, very useful so reducing the drain value enough to make the spell's use free most of the time is being too easy on them.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Sep 9 2010, 02:49 PM) *
Fair point, but it's not as though Heal is nothing more than an alternative to carrying around a heavy medkit. It has important advantages that need to be balanced, not least the fact that it doesn't run out of supplies.
50 in intervals at the GM's discretion, makes it hardly expensive. The threshold for First Aid is a bit of a problem, though. Unless you are sufficiently skilled chances are that you cannot help at all, whereas optimized characters can get patients from a near-death experience to up and running in a matter of seconds (10 Boxes=half a minute).


QUOTE (Aerospider @ Sep 9 2010, 02:49 PM) *
Which is even more reason not to let the drain be too low. Converting a lot of physical damage into a little stun is very, very useful so reducing the drain value enough to make the spell's use free most of the time is being too easy on them.
I agree. 7+ drain as per RAW for a lifethreatening injury is hardly little drain IMHO. 1 drain for light injuries (1-3 boxes) is OK too.
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