Exactly. The Internal/External modifiers from Exalted 2e are where I got the classifications from.

I come from the school of thought that SR4 becomes totally broken as a system once you hit 12+ dice. Therefore, something that increases difficulty as drastically as 1:1 ratio is highly regarded. If it was 1:3 (apart from forcing me to do more arithmetic than I care to) then highly skilled/augmented individuals could still plow through everything without any challenges. 1:1 means that there is still SOMETHING out there that even a cyberzombie/dragon has trouble with. Allows creation of challenges at all tiers of play -- from Street to Prime Runners.

Although I should mention that all 6's explode, not just on Edge enhanced rolls.

I would be very interested to get more info on this.

Not really much more detail to go into than what I have there. I'm kind of making a lot of it up as my players interact with the rules.

For instance, full autofire is +9 Threshold. However, a tripod is something like -6 Threshold. So now there is a strong incentive to actually use a tripod with your character who has a 20 dice pool because he could actually fail if he tries to just one-hand, full auto the gun (20 dice against 10 hits as opposed to 10 dice versus 1 hit when not compensating the recoil). Similarly, having a hacker run overwatch on you during a gun-fight becomes great. Blind-firing through the wall is now +8 threshold which is still pretty hard to get with your 20 dice. However, having the hacker display the target vector and feed video into your smartlink that +8 threshold suddenly disappears. Also provides strong incentive for EW during combat as each side tries to remove this advantage.

I can't really remember which pieces of cyberware I gave -threshold or +dice to. I think anything that was a dice pool modifier became +/- Threshold modifier and anything which was a skill/attribute modifier became a +/- dice pool modifier. Again, trying to mimic how Internal/External penalties work in Exalted 2e and making it so a player knows they always roll X dice and it is the Threshold that changes (less time spent counting dice).

*My* point there was, if you (the GM) play your "Master of All" card too often, the players will quickly have the feeling that they are pinballs in a giant GM mind-fart. That applies to "beating" good PC rolls behind a screen too often (one of the reasons I hardly ever roll behind screen), and IMO it certainly applies to not rolling at all and just telling the players what happens. In my experience (both as GM and player), part of good GMing is giving the players the feeling they have a certain amount of control, and that's where I don't see a no dice-rolling version playing out well.

I see your point that too much crunch can distract, and though I have my doubts with the "no crunch at all" approach, I am inclined to agree that SR rather does have too much of it. Which is why I find Cheops' idea very interesting.

Cheops, what's your base threshold (w/o modifiers) in ranged combat? The target's Reaction? Half target's reaction? A third? What about close combat and other opposed tests?

The basic theory of what Cheops' suggestion's source is that you simply pre-calculate all *defensive* pools into a 'defense rating' (Threshold to attack them). So, the simplest version would be to 3:1 all defense pools (Dodge Value = Reaction/3, Parry Value = (Reaction + Skill)/3, etc.), opposed tests (Con Defense = (Charsma + Con)/3, etc.). It's a little harder in SR4 than Exalted 2e because SR has more varied opposed rolls.

Obviously, Cheops' actual suggestion is a little more complex (possibly too much so, but we'd have to try it out).

Right, but the operative words here are "too often". Everything "too often" is bad, hence the word "too". A good GM doesn't do it too often, but just right. (I had to. )

In my experience, people who want everything up front think that the only way GMs make these calls are to short change them, when in fact, many GMs also go the other route: having what seems to be a bad roll succeed. Plus, contrary to Tanegar's above response, you will not ever know all the "behind the screen" factors in play. And the fact that you rolled well but failed, could be a clue, just as the opposite. Also, what about those times when the character isn't supposed to know they are even making a roll, like secret Perception check? If the GM rolls it he is "denying the players God given right to control everything about his character!!!" But if he has the player do it, he just gave away vital information just by having the player make the check. For me, I want to surprise and draw out some level of emotion from the player, not just the pretend character, because the player is who is sitting at the game table. So when something is supposed to be surprising, I want it to be surprising, scary=scary, funny=funny, etc..to the player. (Obviously it can't be the same, but somewhat is good enough.)

I feel that concentrating on the number soo much takes away from those emotion-generating situations. I mean, really, other than frustration, what emotions were ever conjured in math class?

I think you're overstating the case for the general population of gamers, but yes, certainly your personal experience is valid.

Yera, I think Cheops said he got rid of the dodge skill, but I still don't know what he has for a "Base TN."

I'm assuming he used *something* like the Range Thresholds optional rule + Reaction/3, but I know that's not the exact specifics.

The biggest problem I see with his method is that it actually doesn't work for those non-optimized characters. I works well for characters with the 12+ die pools, but when you are talking about the average joe* with a 6 die pool, a +4 TN is HUGE. So, in a mixed group it could be a problem. But, you can always use it as a way to say, "that is why the snipers and gun adepts do the shooting and not the technomancers." ("And vice-versa.")

It does seem to reinforce dedicated roles, as well. In a game where you want some overlapping of skills, this will make that nearly impossible, as far as I can tell. If that is what you want/like, then cool.

*Who I think the current mods were made for, which could be classified as a mistake right at the beginning as PCs rarely conform to the average joe's stats.

Nope. Far more brutal. Threshold 1/2/3/4 for Short/Medium/Long/Extreme. Looking at it I should probably reinstitute the Counterattack rule for Melee/Unarmed from SR3. Dodge penalties can only negate the +threshold from dodge bonuses. Oh, and I made it so you can take a single Free Action on every combatant's turn so you can dive for cover when getting shot at. Better find some hard cover Omae.

I found everyone was dying in 2 shots anyway unless they jacked their Dodge through the roof. Even then it was still mostly just extra dice rolling. So screw it! I should probably also note that these are experimental rules that I implemented for our current game not something I have been doing since 2005. So take them with a grain of salt.

Screw it, here are all my house rules so far:

Game Mechanics

• All 6’s explode with or without Edge
o Doesn’t matter if Edge is spent before or after the roll now
• All dice pool modifiers become Threshold modifiers
o Positive dice pool modifier becomes negative Threshold
• If a modifier doesn’t have a description then assume it is a Dice Pool modifier
• Threshold Test: a Threshold modifier increases the overall Threshold
o Dice Pool modifiers alter the individual test’s threshold
 #hits = Hits – Threshold +1
 can change from test to test

Character Creation

• Active Skills cost 2 BP, Knowledge Skills cost 1 BP
o Skill Groups cost 5 BP
• Positive Qualities that give Dice Pool Modifiers still give dice
o They don’t modify thresholds
• Negative Qualities are gone  if you want one, role-play it
• Spell Force: since spells are now learned at a specific Force get bonus points
o Full Mage  10 BPs just for spells
o Mystic Adepts  5 BPs just for spells
o Cannot buy at Force greater than Magic or 6 (whichever is lower)

Skills

• Skill Changes
o Dodge is removed
o Outdoors Group is now a skill called Survival replacing all skills in the group
o Firearms group is now a skill replacing all skills in the group
 Includes Gunnery and Heavy Weapons
o Close Combat group is now a skill replacing all skills in the group
o Athletics group is now a skill replacing all skills in the group
o Thrown Weapons is removed – Athletics covers this now
o Exotic Weapons skills are gone – exotic weapons now cause a +1 Threshold modifier unless you have a Firearms or Close Combat specialty that covers said weapon
o Driver Skill Group – new skill group that covers the “normal” piloting skills
 Pilot: Ground Craft, Pilot: Watercraft, Pilot: Aircraft
o Binding is gone  Summoning is used instead
o Ritual Spellcasting is gone  Spellcasting is used instead
o Conjuring Group: add Assensing to this group
o Sorcery Group: add Astral Combat to this group
o Electronics Group: add Electronic Warfare and Cybercombat
 Hacking is gone  Computer is used instead
 Data Search is gone  Computer is used instead
 Computer Science  replaces Hardware and Software
o Diving becomes a Knowledge Skill that compliments Athletics
o Parachuting becomes a Knowledge Skill that compliments Athletics

Combat

o Initiative tests are gone: act in order of highest I+IP to lowest
o Speaking is a non-action (similar to Threading)
o Free Actions
 may take 1 Free Action per Action Phase including during other character’s action phases
o Ranges: Short 1, Medium 2, Long 3, Extreme 4
o Defense Rolls are gone
 Defense Modifiers add as Threshold to the attacker’s roll
o Armor Penalties kick in at STR + BOD (not BOD x2)
 Military-grade: add extra limit equal to the higher of the two attributes
o Driving with AR: still adds +1 die instead of modifying Threshold

Magic

o Spells are learned at a specific Force
 Can’t cast above that
 Can cast at any Force below
 Force can be increased at the same cost as Complex Forms
 Add +Force to the Threshold for the learning test
o Ritual Casting can be done with participants of different Traditions
o Direct Combat spells are now treated the same as any other attack
o All Mental Manipulations are now Illusions (rules work the same)
o Counterspelling adds as Threshold to the attacker’s roll
o Banishing: now used in exactly the same manner as Counterspelling
 Works against all Powers used by Spirits

Hacking

o Treat everything like it was in the real world
o Response is gone: just use System now
 TMs get to pick which Attribute to use
o Exploit – used to pick locks, open windows, etc
o Stealth – equivalent to Infiltration, Disguise, and Etiquette
o Analyze – perception, replaces Analyze, Browse, Scan, Sniffer, Track
o Edit – used to change things, acts like build/repair skills
 Does the Sniffer intercept
 Can also Defuse
o Encrypt (Hacker software) – language skill used to communicate with secure nodes
 Replaces decrypt – just roll to see if you “understand” what’s being said
 Threshold equal to Encrypt rating being run by target
o Spoof – equivalent to Negotiations, Con, and Leadership
 Replaces Command
o Medic – no change
o Amor – no change
o Attack – no change
o Biofeedback Filter – adds to Threshold for the Black Hammer attack test
o Black Hammer – Blackout is gone
 damage is Stun/Physical as per normal Armor rules
 attacker can always choose Stun instead
o Agents:
 Agents cannot pass orders to other Agents
 Only actively subscribed Agents may be commanded
 If the active subscription to an Agent is terminated then the Agent stops doing what it was told and returns to its “home” node
o Technomancers can work with mundane equipment without having to buy the skills twice
 Have an intuitive understanding but can still make things work
o Decompiling can now be used to defend against Sprites in the same manner as Counterspelling and Banishing

Street Magic

• Conjuring Drain: using Force/2 + Hits
• Acquiring Geas during play: Threshold 3 test whenever Critical Glitch on important test
• Magic Loss: Happens with following glitches
o Resisting Physical Drain
o While using a Stim Patch
o When receiving First Aid
• All Foci at Force 6+ require an Exotic Component
• Arcana is linked to Drain Attribute instead of Logic (unless it is Logic)
• Metamagic can be learned as per rules on page 52
• Aid Enchanting is allowed (79)

Unwired

• IPs in AR: can only take 1 Matrix action regardless of number of IPs
• Sprite Fading: equal to Rating/2 + Hits
• Resonance Loss: occurs when rolling a glitch in the following instances
o Resisting Physical Fading
o Resisting Electrical Damage
o When receiving First Aid
• Tactical Software: do not need to pay to get the benefits
o This is what AR was supposed to do when added to the game
• Technomancer Rules (137)
o Attack Protection: +2 Threshold to all attacks by regular programs
o Difficult to Analyze: +1 Threshold to all Matrix Perception using Analyze programs (not complex forms)
o Immunity to Crashing: can only be crashed by Resonance beings


Still used 400 BP so my team isn't exactly a beginning team. I wanted to streamline the rules as much as possible. SR is way too crunchy and was killing my fun as GM.

IMO depriving the players of their only influence on the outcome of their endeavours that can oppose the whims of the GM (yes, whims! For players, "GM has (given himself) additional background information" and "GM is on a whim" is usually the same thing) is definitely playing the "Master of All" card "too often" and far from "just right". There is indeed a slight difference whether the GM rolls behind the screen al the time or he simply dictates every outcome: with the former a trusting player can still have the feeling he can throw the GM off with a good roll, with the latter he can't. But in my eyes, in both cases the GM is too potentially manipulative for any player to feel comfortable.

Has it occurred to you that, since you apparently don't like anything at all about Shadowrun, it might behoove you to play something else?

Actually, many of those just look like SR3.

How does that make the comment any less insightful? Perhaps use SR3's rules rather than SR4's which is playing something else.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps he enjoys the setting but wanted rules that more closely simulated SR3?

Because SR3 is Shadowrun, StealthSigma. It's *not* playing something else. There's simply no call for that kind of 'insightful' comment.

There's no reason that you cannot divorce the setting from the rules.

There's the Shadowrun setting and the SR1/2/3/4 rule-set.

Why are mommy and daddy separating?

There's also the fact that the two new players I have can't just walk into any FLGS and pick up a copy of SR3 if they want the rules. They can however walk into any FLGS and buy a copy of the SR4A rules.

I looked at using SR3 instead but I would have needed just as many house rules to make Otaku and wireless/AR work in SR3. So when confronted with 2 choices that led to the same amount of work for me, I chose the one where my players can still purchase the rules. Also, SR3 required just as much work from the GM to run the game as SR4 but more work from the players to play the game than SR4 so again, I chose to use SR4 but give it SR3 flavour.

I agree with the 2 shot and the crunchy, and some of what you have put together. Was still just wondering what the base TN to punch (or stab, or smack, etc..) someone is using your system? Is it their Reaction as the TN? Or is it 1, plus modifiers? You have all that for firearms, but I don't see anything for melee.

Be careful not to confuse Threshold with TN, btw.

Yeah, oops. I do dat sometimes.

But I am looking for the base number for melee combat.

Honestly it hasn't come up yet and I didn't really think about it because melee is usually beyond useless. It would either be Threshold 1 or else an opposed test like in SR3. That being said I do have a melee adept in the group so I'll have to come up with something sooner or later...

I might go with threshold 1 and see how that works.

Again, Reaction/3 would be the classic method. It depends, but remember that it's *intended* to be easier to defend against melee than bullets.

I've been thinking about reducing the TN to 4 (i.e. if you roll a 4 it's still a hit) and then declaring (attribute+skill)/2 as the base threshold for what are now opposed tests. It seems more KISS than /3 and rounding is less distortive. Also: the "dice modifier => threshold modifier" becomes less dramatic.