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Zoot
I reckon this topic has possibly been touched on a few times but I am still unsure of how to run this.

The rules say that when you lose essence you also lose magic and your magic stat maximum is also reduced. But what if you don't have a magic stat at the time you lost the essence but (thanks to qualities such as Latent Awakening) gained a magic stat at a later date?

I can see 2 options here.

Either the essence loss has no effect on your non-existent magic and you later awaken with a magic stat of 1 and a max magic of 6 as normal.

Or you will never awaken since your magic stat has been pre-emptively been reduced to 0.

Is there anything in the novels that support either conclusion?
Summerstorm
You will awaken with one magic as long as you have an essence of 1 or higher. Your MAXIMUM however will be lower if you have not full essence though.
Zoot
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Sep 4 2010, 04:10 PM) *
You will awaken with one magic as long as you have an essence of 1 or higher. Your MAXIMUM however will be lower if you have not full essence though.



So you are saying neither option but somewhere in between. But why would the essence loss pre-emptively reduce your maximum magic but not your actual magic? Is this canon?
Mooncrow
QUOTE (Zoot @ Sep 4 2010, 10:49 AM) *
So you are saying neither option but somewhere in between. But why would the essence loss pre-emptively reduce your maximum magic but not your actual magic? Is this canon?


The Latent Awakening description covers it pretty thoroughly. Max magic is always Essence (rounded down) + levels of initiation, Latent Awakening always gives you one point of magic when it triggers; unless your essence is less than 1, in which case you don't get to Awaken.
Yerameyahu
Yes, AFAIK it's always been this way. It's the same for people who already have Magic, it's just that they *also* lose Magic with Essence. If that's unfair, you can always houserule it, but augmented Awakened characters are powerful enough already IMO. smile.gif
Doc Byte
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 4 2010, 06:46 PM) *
... but augmented Awakened characters are powerful enough already IMO. smile.gif


Only in respect of covering two fields of application, but a pure specialist will always surpass them in one field.
Yerameyahu
Right: powerful enough already. smile.gif
Voran
Consider, without this in effect, you'll have players going So...I'm going to be practically a cyberzombie, but I get to awaken and get to have the full range of powers and magic of a mage!
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Voran @ Sep 4 2010, 04:20 PM) *
Consider, without this in effect, you'll have players going So...I'm going to be practically a cyberzombie, but I get to awaken and get to have the full range of powers and magic of a mage!

Only if the have the karma needed to buy all the magic/skills/initiations to be any good
Yerameyahu
I think you'd find plenty of takers for that 'hardship'. smile.gif
Glyph
QUOTE (Doc Byte @ Sep 4 2010, 08:54 AM) *
Only in respect of covering two fields of application, but a pure specialist will always surpass them in one field.

Augmented adepts are actually the opposite of that. Buying Magic and high resources means they are less well-rounded, but things like synaptic boosters and muscle toner make them brutally effective at combat. It is the same for faces, since they can combine kinesics with tailored pheromones to be extremely good at social skills.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 4 2010, 05:52 PM) *
I think you'd find plenty of takers for that 'hardship'. smile.gif


Just saying its a karma sink until you get enough skill, initiation, and magic to be useful. Not saying once you have that skill it isn't worth it, its just hard to put away that much when you need 'other' skills to actually get the karma needed to become a decent mage.
Yerameyahu
That's true. But, the idea is that you're a full sam to start, right? That should serve you well enough to get going on mage, and every little bit helps along the way. You don't need Magic 4 with metamagic before you can do some pretty useful things. smile.gif
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 4 2010, 06:48 PM) *
That's true. But, the idea is that you're a full sam to start, right? That should serve you well enough to get going on mage, and every little bit helps along the way. You don't need Magic 4 with metamagic before you can do some pretty useful things. smile.gif

No, but you need a magic of 3, at least.
Yerameyahu
Hehe. I don't think you do. smile.gif
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 4 2010, 07:22 PM) *
Hehe. I don't think you do. smile.gif

I can't think of many spells which are useful with less then 3 hits.
Critias
I know Adepts can be plenty nasty with just a few power points. Mages, maybe not so much...but Adepts? Sure. Lots of pretty handy stuff costs just .25 or so, and for "tools in the toolbox" they can be pretty nasty.
Bull
As was stated, your Max Magic is 6-Essence (plus Initiation Grades).

So a character with some cyber and has an essence of three awakens... He starts with a 1 Magic rating, and a Max Magic of 3. The path of the Burnout has always been a long, tall hill to climb and overcome.

Bull
Yerameyahu
Mordinvan: Well, you can start off by enjoying Astral Superman-vision, foci use, and the ability to now leave your body and fly through mana-land for at least an hour. biggrin.gif If you're a MysAd, 1 PP can do some handy little things indeed. What else… I think you could probably use Mindlink with Magic 1, and some of the self-buffs (a minor +1, but better than a kick in the teeth if you've got a cheap Sustaining Focus). My point is that you don't get *nothing*, and you'll only get stronger from there.

I think you've got a typo there, Bull, but we all know what you mean. smile.gif
Karoline
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Sep 4 2010, 11:30 PM) *
I can't think of many spells which are useful with less then 3 hits.

Levitation
Control thoughts/emotions/body
Any combat spell
Heal
Invisibility
Eyes of the pack
Any stat boost spell
Fashion
Healthy Glow

And of course you're not accounting for the fact that you can overcast, and with all the boosts from cyber/bio, you should be able to handle the drain without issue, so a magic 3 can actually get you 6 hits, magic 2 can easily give you 4 hits.

There aren't a heck of alot of spells that wouldn't be useful by the time you hit 2 magic to allow you to overcast to 4, and there are several that have potential at only 1 magic.

Edit: I agree with the other posters here. You'd start at 1 magic, because that's what the quality says, and you'd have a maximum magic of Essence (round down) + initiation, because that's what the books say.
Yerameyahu
Indeed. smile.gif I'm not sure about *all* of those, though. But the point is that Magic 1's far from useless.
Karoline
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 4 2010, 11:46 PM) *
Indeed. smile.gif I'm not sure about *all* of those, though. But the point is that Magic 1's far from useless.

All of those are for magic 3, which means force 6 spells. I don't think any of those are weak at force 6. You know, except for indirect combat spells, but those are always weak.
Yerameyahu
Oh, sorry. I was still in 'Magic 1 is useful' mode, because he said 'you need Magic 3 at least'. smile.gif Nevermind!
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 4 2010, 09:42 PM) *
Levitation

This one 'could' be ok, didn't realize it was 200 KG/hit, thought it was less then that.

QUOTE
Control thoughts/emotions/body

As this is an opposed test.. no it is pretty much useless.

QUOTE
Any combat spell

Again, an opposed test, so this is going to fail much of the time, far to often to be relied upon for any useful purpose.

QUOTE
Heal

I do see some utility here for minor wounds, or preventing bleed outs.

QUOTE
Invisibility

Won't hide you from most guards, any cameras or any drones.

QUOTE
Eyes of the pack

I can't even remember what this does....

QUOTE
Any stat boost spell

Only if that stat is less then 3 to begin with.

QUOTE
Fashion
Healthy Glow

Cute but not very 'mechanically' useful.


QUOTE
And of course you're not accounting for the fact that you can overcast, and with all the boosts from cyber/bio, you should be able to handle the drain without issue, so a magic 3 can actually get you 6 hits, magic 2 can easily give you 4 hits.

As the drain is handled by physical stats, there isn't a lot of cyber to boost that.

QUOTE
There aren't a heck of alot of spells that wouldn't be useful by the time you hit 2 magic to allow you to overcast to 4, and there are several that have potential at only 1 magic.

This is where we will have to simply disagree. To be 'useful' you're asking the caster to resist physical damage for every spell. It would be akin to handing a carpenter a hammer he has to hit himself in the knees with every time he goes to use it, can calling that 'useful'.
Yerameyahu
*shrug* The fact is that you can do magic, and that other guy can't. It's undeniably 'useful'; that's not to say 'all the time, for everything'. You start with minor (useful) tricks, and work up to better ones, in a nice progression. I'd always leap at that, except we're talking about a counterfactual; we know the rules don't do this anyway, alas. frown.gif
Karoline
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Sep 4 2010, 11:09 PM) *
As this is an opposed test.. no it is pretty much useless.


Again, an opposed test, so this is going to fail much of the time, far to often to be relied upon for any useful purpose.

An opposed test against a single stat, the single hardest stat in the game to raise I might add, I don't see how 3 hits against a DP of around 3 is going to fail 'much of the time', and of course if you're talking about overcasting, then you're looking at 6 hits against the same DP. Far from useless.

QUOTE
I do see some utility here for minor wounds, or preventing bleed outs.

Force 6, heal up to 6 boxes, which is about 60% of most people's track, and since damage is based on the target instead of force of the spell, no reason not to overcast.

QUOTE
Won't hide you from most guards, any cameras or any drones.

Actually it'll hide you from nearly all guards, but yes, no cameras/drones.
QUOTE
I can't even remember what this does....

A mildly handy 'people can see what others see' spell. A good way to share vision (or other senses) if your group is paranoid about having a wireless signal.
QUOTE
Only if that stat is less then 3 to begin with.

Once again, or 6 with overcasting, which would be most stats. And even at 3, that can still be potentially useful.
QUOTE
Cute but not very 'mechanically' useful.
True, not very mechanically useful, but a large number of people get spells like this that aren't very 'mechanically' useful. Fashion in particular is great for making your body armor look like... not body armor.
QUOTE
As the drain is handled by physical stats, there isn't a lot of cyber to boost that.

Dareadrin, trauma damper, platelet factory, cerebral booster, and that leech thing. That's a potential +5 drain DP and a flat 2 less damage on the drain. Yeah, cyber can give a serious boost to drain.
QUOTE
This is where we will have to simply disagree. To be 'useful' you're asking the caster to resist physical damage for every spell. It would be akin to handing a carpenter a hammer he has to hit himself in the knees with every time he goes to use it, can calling that 'useful'.

Plenty of people overcast all the time, and it isn't like you're being asked to overcast on a high force spell. A force 6 spell has a base DV of 3, modified by the spell itself, usually anywhere from -1 to +1 on average, which means a whopping 4 damage. Heck, I'd be happy to take that with the cyber above alone, not even counting the actual stats involved in the drain, which if you include could easily make it a DP of 15, or higher if you really want.

So yeah, plenty of stuff you can do with a magic of 3. And 2. And even 1 has a handful of useful spells, you just have to be smarter about them.
Zoot
So following on from that, it would be ok for a player to build his magician with an pre-made essence hole from before he awakened? Thus allowing some implants later on without impacting his magic stat (obviously doesn't benefit characters with maxed magic)
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Zoot @ Sep 5 2010, 03:23 AM) *
So following on from that, it would be ok for a player to build his magician with an pre-made essence hole from before he awakened? Thus allowing some implants later on without impacting his magic stat (obviously doesn't benefit characters with maxed magic)

I think AH said it was possible to install ware, then buy magic during character gen, but I only had 3 hrs sleep, so don't quote me.
Dahrken
While the fluff and rules suggest this could be donne, it is not explicitely allowed so I strongly advise you to discuss the matter with of your GM before trying to pull this kind of stunt.
UmaroVI
QUOTE (Zoot @ Sep 5 2010, 05:23 AM) *
So following on from that, it would be ok for a player to build his magician with an pre-made essence hole from before he awakened? Thus allowing some implants later on without impacting his magic stat (obviously doesn't benefit characters with maxed magic)


Well, the issue is that Latent Awakening doesn't determine what kind of Awakened character you turn into. So you could awaken with something useless like Spell Knack: Shape Jello. If Latent Awakening let you "pre-determine" what type of awakened character you would become (or, at the very least, restricted it to Adept, Mystic Adept, or Magician) it would be really good, as it is, I don't really like it because of the large possibility of awakening into something worthless.
Dahrken
If I'm not mistaken, what Zoot suggest is not to have the character awaken during play, but to create an Awakened character who happens to have got a few cyberbits stuffed into him before his awakening so that he does not have to pay karma/BP for the magic points that would have been lost if the implantation was post-awakening, and has some wiggle room to stuff an extra goodies or two without loosing magic later in play, when he has earned enough money/favors for them.
Dahrken
[edit] Double post, sorry [/edit]
Yerameyahu
Hmm. I'm pretty sure doing it *during* chargen requires GM-fiat. Attributes come first in the process, then 'ware; if you want to pull this trick (and that's what it is), you just have to convince the GM that it's fair.
Mäx
QUOTE (Dahrken @ Sep 5 2010, 02:47 PM) *
If I'm not mistaken, what Zoot suggest is not to have the character awaken during play, but to create an Awakened character who happens to have got a few cyberbits stuffed into him before his awakening so that he does not have to pay karma/BP for the magic points that would have been lost if the implantation was post-awakening, and has some wiggle room to stuff an extra goodies or two without loosing magic later in play, when he has earned enough money/favors for them.

That is pretty much same as trying to claim that "My character got this Synaptic Booster 3 as a gift, so i shouldn't need to pay for it at chargen"
Characters background has nothing to do with the chargen cost of stuff.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 4 2010, 09:14 PM) *
Daredrenaline, trauma damper, platelet factory, cerebral booster, and that leech thing. That's a potential +5 drain DP and a flat 2 less damage on the drain. Yeah, cyber can give a serious boost to drain.


Don't forget the +1 willpower from an activated Pain Editor.

Pain Editor: what stun track?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
EDIT: Never Mind, My replies were Already covered above...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Sep 5 2010, 05:38 AM) *
Well, the issue is that Latent Awakening doesn't determine what kind of Awakened character you turn into. So you could awaken with something useless like Spell Knack: Shape Jello. If Latent Awakening let you "pre-determine" what type of awakened character you would become (or, at the very least, restricted it to Adept, Mystic Adept, or Magician) it would be really good, as it is, I don't really like it because of the large possibility of awakening into something worthless.


Which is why you would discuss such things with your GM... there is no chart to roll to determine the outcome, it is GM fiat... seems to me a conversation would eliminate the silly stuff you do not want...
Yerameyahu
Indeed. If your GM screwed you like that… fight time. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 6 2010, 08:53 AM) *
Indeed. If your GM screwed you like that… fight time. smile.gif


It would definitely be an annoyance I would think...
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