Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Suppresive fire and recoil reduction
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Paul Kauphart
The rule for suppressive fire in the core book says, to simplify the rules, they consider the recoil modifier on the shooter and the wide burst modifier on the target to cancel each others. But if you have recoil reduction system, says I have 5 RC on an AR, and I do a suppressive fire, do I ignore that recoil reduction, do you add it as a positive modifier for the shooter (+5 dice for the shoot) or as a negative modifier on the targets (-5 dice on the defence) ?
Elfenlied
You ignore it completely.
CanRay
Yeah, with Suppressive Fire, you're just using the fully-automatic firearm as a lead hose. You're not really caring if you hit a single target so much as an wide area.

Yes, you're still fighting the recoil, but not as much as you normally would, so Recoil Compensation doesn't really help as much either.

BTW, Auto-Shotguns FTW!
Dumori
QUOTE (Paul Kauphart @ Sep 6 2010, 12:02 PM) *
The rule for suppressive fire in the core book says, to simplify the rules, they consider the recoil modifier on the shooter and the wide burst modifier on the target to cancel each others. But if you have recoil reduction system, says I have 5 RC on an AR, and I do a suppressive fire, do I ignore that recoil reduction, do you add it as a positive modifier for the shooter (+5 dice for the shoot) or as a negative modifier on the targets (-5 dice on the defence) ?

You actually IIRC ignore all modifiers by RAW though I'll have to re-read to be 100% so you roll atribute+skill+any skill modifiers(adpet powers or reflex recorder) and ignore the rest. Even if it would be in or our of your favour.
Paul Kauphart
I came up another weird thing with suppressive fire. It fires 20 shots, and last from one action phase of the firing character, to ne beginning of the next action phase for the character. So effectively, to maintain a suppressed zone for one combat turn, a 1IP character will use 20shots, and a 4IP character will have to use 80 shots....

Unless I've missed something, it doesn't feel right.
Doc Chase
Higher IP characters change the laws of physics. nyahnyah.gif It's one of the beefs I have with the burstfire system.
CanRay
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Sep 8 2010, 10:16 AM) *
Higher IP characters change the laws of physics. nyahnyah.gif It's one of the beefs I have with the burstfire system.

There's Elves and Magic, and you complain about the Laws of Physics?

Sorry man, the Rule Of Cool has long since overridden that. nyahnyah.gif
Doc Chase
QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 8 2010, 04:18 PM) *
There's Elves and Magic, and you complain about the Laws of Physics?

Sorry man, the Rule Of Cool has long since overridden that. nyahnyah.gif


Yes. I can accept Elves, Dragons, and Magic, but bullets leaving a gun faster simply because a guy has a better twitch factor than another guy? NO SIR. nyahnyah.gif
Paul Kauphart
Well, I could say I found a situation where having 1IP is better than having 4 nyahnyah.gif
Yerameyahu
Free action to dial your Wires down. smile.gif
CanRay
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Sep 8 2010, 10:22 AM) *
Yes. I can accept Elves, Dragons, and Magic, but bullets leaving a gun faster simply because a guy has a better twitch factor than another guy? NO SIR. nyahnyah.gif

Being a Gun Nut, I can understand this.

'Course, SR doesn't really take Cyclic Rate into consideration anyhow...
Paul Kauphart
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 8 2010, 04:34 PM) *
Free action to dial your Wires down. smile.gif


Good point, and if it's an Improved Reflex 3 ?
Yerameyahu
Sucks to be you.
Paul Kauphart
question.gif
CanRay
What, can't turn off your magic?
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Paul Kauphart @ Sep 8 2010, 10:14 AM) *
I came up another weird thing with suppressive fire. It fires 20 shots, and last from one action phase of the firing character, to ne beginning of the next action phase for the character. So effectively, to maintain a suppressed zone for one combat turn, a 1IP character will use 20shots, and a 4IP character will have to use 80 shots....

Unless I've missed something, it doesn't feel right.


Same here. Though my thought is that if the PC or NPC delays his next action, the suppressing fire continues.
Paul Kauphart
QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 8 2010, 05:26 PM) *
What, can't turn off your magic?


Well, maybe I'm wrong, but the way I understand it, unless specified, physad power are in effect round the clock.
Paul Kauphart
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Sep 8 2010, 05:35 PM) *
Same here. Though my thought is that if the PC or NPC delays his next action, the suppressing fire continues.


This is fun, I decide to delay my action, so the suppressive fire continue, but I'm not using bullets anymore nyahnyah.gif

Yerameyahu
Obviously, you'd want to use GM suppressive fire on people who tried to be clever and abuse it.
Ears
The good thing about 4 IPs and a FA weapon is that you can, while whining about the stupid suppessive fire rules, hit 12 targets using split full bursts...
Yerameyahu
Er. You can *fire at* 12 targets, if they're standing in groups. smile.gif You might hit some of them.
TommyTwoToes
How does suppression fire work with that full auto shotgun on wide choke?
Just wondered since you can catch up to 3 (IIRC) targets per shot with a wide choke, would you make multiple tests to hit each target of suppression fire?

Reasoning is thus
You fire supression fire into the area where A, B and C are standing.
First you check to see if yout hit A, but because you are using wide choke you also check against B and C.
Second you check to hit B (for the supression effect), but again, because of the wide choke you test against A and C also.
Third you check against C (for the supression), but becasue of the choke you also check against A and B.

This would net out with a number of tests to hit each target equal to the number of targets in the cone, up to a max of 3 checks per target.

Oh, and then everyone soaks all the damage except the hacker, he takes 1 stun.
Yerameyahu
Nope. But the AA16 *does* get 'efficient suppression', a nice little bonus. smile.gif
TommyTwoToes
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 8 2010, 02:24 PM) *
Nope. But the AA16 *does* get 'efficient suppression', a nice little bonus. smile.gif


OK, and because I feel retarded today. If you modd a rocket launcher to be full auto and use it for supression fire, does each shot still scatter?
Yerameyahu
There aren't 'shots' while suppressing. Assuming it's possible with rockets (for one thing, you'd need an ammo cap of 20, I assume?), you simple 'suppress an area'.
Paul Kauphart
QUOTE (TommyTwoToes @ Sep 8 2010, 08:31 PM) *
OK, and because I feel retarded today. If you modd a rocket launcher to be full auto and use it for supression fire, does each shot still scatter?


Lol, I've been imagining that, and I can't stop laughing !!

But in case of a FA rocket launcher, my first question would even be, how do you rule even a single burst nyahnyah.gif
Yerameyahu
Yes, certainly the sane thing is to simply not allow it at all. smile.gif Even bursts of grenades are problematic, but rockets are expensive. biggrin.gif The only canon example is the Fleche Hail; it makes separate rolls for each rocket (multiple shots). They each impose the -2 multiple target penalty, and it's not BF or FA at all, so no suppression.

It's not clear that you can mod a launcher to do it, either:
QUOTE
This modification is not available for weapons using unusual loading mechanisms or exotic ammunition, like the Sakura Fubuki or Pain Inducer.
Possibly that includes rocket launchers. smile.gif
TommyTwoToes
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 8 2010, 02:40 PM) *
Yes, certainly the sane thing is to simply not allow it at all. smile.gif Even bursts of grenades are problematic, but rockets are expensive. biggrin.gif The only canon example is the Fleche Hail; it makes separate rolls for each rocket (multiple shots). They each impose the -2 multiple target penalty, and it's not BF or FA at all, so no suppression.

It's not clear that you can mod a launcher to do it, either:Possibly that includes rocket launchers. smile.gif

I agree that it would be problematic with the rockets, but I think you hit on something with gernades. Doesn't the 1 launcher use a magazine/clip? I think this would be a crowd pleaser.

Hmmmm need to take a look for Shadowwars.
Yerameyahu
Well, go search for the last time someone statted it up. smile.gif The Mk19 is usually mentioned, although it's more like a HMG with explosive shells.

Given the balance of SR4 equipment, I'd rule grenades to be 'exotic ammunition'; anything not firing normal bullets from normal mechanisms. smile.gif
TommyTwoToes
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 8 2010, 02:50 PM) *
Well, go search for the last time someone statted it up. smile.gif The Mk19 is usually mentioned, although it's more like a HMG with explosive shells.

Given the balance of SR4 equipment, I'd rule grenades to be 'exotic ammunition'; anything not firing normal bullets from normal mechanisms. smile.gif

How funny, I wasn't reading the Auto Cannon recoil thread, but they are both drifting down the same path.
Paul Kauphart
I'd say id does. And I would also rule out the suppressive fire if you don't have 20 shot available, though I would consider it if you have 20 shot available in two weapon you'd be holding in two hands.
sabs
QUOTE (TommyTwoToes @ Sep 8 2010, 08:48 PM) *
I agree that it would be problematic with the rockets, but I think you hit on something with gernades. Doesn't the 1 launcher use a magazine/clip? I think this would be a crowd pleaser.

Hmmmm need to take a look for Shadowwars.


ArmTech MGL-12: This bullpup-configuration model is popular,
since it fires in semi-auto mode and carries more minigrenades than
its competitors.
ArmTech MGL-12 Grenade SA 12 © 10F 2,000
+FA Mod
+extended clip +4 ammo (unless you can talk your GM into the Drum, in which case 50 or 100 ammo)

Although really, BF mdoe might be enough of a mod. As a Gm do you rule that it shoots 3-9 grenades that each roll scatter?
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (TommyTwoToes @ Sep 8 2010, 02:23 PM) *
How does suppression fire work with that full auto shotgun on wide choke?


There was a movie recently that purports to examine this very question.

smile.gif




-karma
sabs
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Sep 8 2010, 09:02 PM) *
There was a movie recently that purports to examine this very question.

smile.gif




-karma


Expendables smile.gif
and the answer is. REALLY SCARY WELL

Chunky Salsa aint got nothing on this.
Yerameyahu
Assuming you rule that BF is possible on a grenade launcher, I'd keep it simple: all three impact as one, using the normal Narrow/Wide rules for bursts. Possibly, you could rule that only Narrow *or* Wide is possible (either they all impact roughly the same spot, or there's som GM-fiat 'saturation' effect).

Just because no one wants to make all those scatter rolls.
Paul Kauphart
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Sep 8 2010, 09:02 PM) *



Exept that in that case, it's not rounds, but HE slugs (thoses new things someone posted about somewhere in dumpshock)
Yerameyahu
Which *is* chunky salsa. biggrin.gif
Paul Kauphart
Well, yeah, I can't argue with that huhu
Social Reject
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 9 2010, 12:36 AM) *
Just because no one wants to make all those scatter rolls.
I'm sure somebody does, lol.
Dumori
QUOTE (Social Reject @ Sep 8 2010, 09:42 PM) *
I'm sure somebody does, lol.

Lot of dice meh I play a 40k where I regularly roll 200+ a turn 80 for the scatter of 20 rockets isn't that bad.
Social Reject
40K was the first thing I thought of too.

But given the nature of 4th edition's already giant dice pools, it seems like rolling a few more won't chap too many hides. Especially if it leads to bad guy cheese soup.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Paul Kauphart @ Sep 8 2010, 04:14 PM) *
I came up another weird thing with suppressive fire. It fires 20 shots, and last from one action phase of the firing character, to ne beginning of the next action phase for the character. So effectively, to maintain a suppressed zone for one combat turn, a 1IP character will use 20shots, and a 4IP character will have to use 80 shots....

Unless I've missed something, it doesn't feel right.

Something to bear in mind re: IPs and delaying actions is that suppressive fire is not only a concern to those who enter the area between the shooter's actions but also those who were there to begin with.

So a 1IP character can cover an area with 20 bullets until his action phase in the next combat round. Everyone there at the start must roll to dodge (Reaction + Edge) and so must everyone moving in the area for the duration. Conversely, a 4IP character would spend 80 bullets to achieve the same duration, but on every action he continues the suppression everyone within the area has to make the test again.

Example:

IP1: Suppressive fire commences Goon runs into and across the danger zone which requires a dodging roll, but finds his route out blocked.
IP2: Suppressive fire continues Goon must make a second roll for being exposed. Goon runs to a door, requiring a third roll, but finds it locked.
IP3: Suppressive fire continues Goon must make a fourth roll. Goon manages to find a way out of the fire arc, requiring a fifth roll.
IP4: Suppressive fire continues with fire arc adjusted to catch Goon Goon must make a sixth roll. Goon dives behind cover, requiring a seventh roll.

A 1IP character would have forced only three dodge rolls one for moving in, one for moving within and one for moving out. If another character had run in one side and out the other in the same action they'd have been forced to make only one roll.

So more IPs pays off by giving more chances to hit, allowing a change in fire arc and allowing a premature ceasefire should the need arise. Compared to the extra ammo expenditure, that's still well worth it.

As for realism the whole rate of fire thing being dependent on IPs is indeed somewhat unsatisfactory, but in the case of suppressive fire it actually does make a bit of sense. I don't think suppressive fire is meant to mean firing blindly left, right and centre. I see it as more controlled than that, firing at places that are likely to have people in them or people who intend to be in them very soon. You're not careless about where you aim, just not thinking too hard about timing or accuracy, stuff like that. So a character with more IPs is able to get more in because they can switch their aim that much quicker.

Think about it. If you're covering an area do you just wave a constantly-discharging barrel around in circles, making interesting patterns and trying to write your name like it were a sparkler? Or would you concentrate your bullets in variable bursts on the disconnected empty spaces where people might actually be at some point?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 8 2010, 12:40 PM) *
Yes, certainly the sane thing is to simply not allow it at all. smile.gif Even bursts of grenades are problematic, but rockets are expensive. biggrin.gif The only canon example is the Fleche Hail; it makes separate rolls for each rocket (multiple shots). They each impose the -2 multiple target penalty, and it's not BF or FA at all, so no suppression.


Though the rules for the Fleche Hail Rocket Launcher do allow you to Ripple fire all (AS many as you want to take a penalty for) of the rockets in the pod... Thisnk of it as a MLRS... Fire 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 20 (Whatever) with the incrementing penalties of course... but you can effectively "Suppress" an area by picking a specific target, and letting the scatter deal with the increasing area of effect... (At the worst, you are going to get a scatter of 4d6 per rocket from initial point of impact (with 0 Net Hits), which you could reduce to 2d6 with various targeting seekers/airburst links)... Seems like suppression fire to me... smokin.gif
Yerameyahu
Except it's not. smile.gif
Dumori
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 9 2010, 04:00 PM) *
Though the rules for the Fleche Hail Rocket Launcher do allow you to Ripple fire all (AS many as you want to take a penalty for) of the rockets in the pod... Thisnk of it as a MLRS... Fire 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 20 (Whatever) with the incrementing penalties of course... but you can effectively "Suppress" an area by picking a specific target, and letting the scatter deal with the increasing area of effect... (At the worst, you are going to get a scatter of 4d6 per rocket from initial point of impact (with 0 Net Hits), which you could reduce to 2d6 with various targeting seekers/airburst links)... Seems like suppression fire to me... smokin.gif

Adept riggers love that weapon soak magic and initiate grade worth of negatives. You can fire 6+ missiles no penalty might eat you nu-yen though. Still also by RAW you can have any 20 missiles so you don't need to load all of one type I think I've just spotted how to make fighter bombers work right in SR4 also you can slap that on a Nimrod at a push.
Neurosis
As far as I know you don't even make an attack roll for suppressive fire, you just spray and pray? Not getting hit is the burden of the character moving through the area.

Of course I didn't read the rule that carefully.

QUOTE
Though the rules for the Fleche Hail Rocket Launcher do allow you to Ripple fire all (AS many as you want to take a penalty for) of the rockets in the pod... Thisnk of it as a MLRS... Fire 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 20 (Whatever) with the incrementing penalties of course... but you can effectively "Suppress" an area by picking a specific target, and letting the scatter deal with the increasing area of effect... (At the worst, you are going to get a scatter of 4d6 per rocket from initial point of impact (with 0 Net Hits), which you could reduce to 2d6 with various targeting seekers/airburst links)... Seems like suppression fire to me...


This seems like it would take FORVER to resolve. Rolling to-hit, scatter direction, and scatter damage on every shot?

It also sounds AWESOME AS SHIT.

Rockets and missiles are one of the things I most frequently hand-wave in my game, but that is because every time players have used them (a rarity, as none of my PCs are specc'd for that) it has been necessary for them to "work like in the movies" for the PCs to survive.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 9 2010, 09:33 AM) *
Except it's not. smile.gif


If it walks like a Duck, and Talks Like a Duck, It might as well be a Duck...wobble.gif
Yerameyahu
But it doesn't. Suppressive Fire uses 20 rounds (subject to special rules), is a Success Test, and creates a static area effect that any number of targets can be damaged by. Multiple rockets are single-rocket attacks, Opposed Tests, and create transient area blasts. smile.gif You can 'suppress' with it, but you can 'suppress' with harsh language. biggrin.gif I'm just talking about the rules keywords, here. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 9 2010, 03:47 PM) *
But it doesn't. Suppressive Fire uses 20 rounds (subject to special rules), is a Success Test, and creates a static area effect that any number of targets can be damaged by. Multiple rockets are single-rocket attacks, Opposed Tests, and create transient area blasts. smile.gif You can 'suppress' with it, but you can 'suppress' with harsh language. biggrin.gif I'm just talking about the rules keywords, here. smile.gif


I get what you are saying... but in the end, the effect on the ground is really not all that much different... But you are very correct... the Rules/Mechanics that get you to that point are indeed two entirely different things... smokin.gif
Yerameyahu
Also, MLRS attacks are just vastly cooler. It's insulting to equate them to something a pistol can do. biggrin.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012