Yesterday, I found a line in the SR4 sourcebook that says "Casting through optical instruments gives a -3 to the dice pool" (In the "Street Gear" chapter, "Optical Instruments"). How can a mage work around that penalty? Would wearing a monocle instead of glasses be enough? I have glasses with smartlink and perception enhancement(?), so I'd really hate not getting to wear any optical instruments.

My GM would probably just houserule it, but I'd like a more "rule-conformant" solution...

Oh, and Greetings from a newbie Dumpshocker (and Shadowrunnner)

That penalty is for looking through binoculars or something like that.

Glasses are electronic. There's no reason the smartlink reticule overlay should give a penalty. If the perception enhancement is running, you're looking at a screen inside the glasses, and you can't cast at all.

Something you can do is that once you've spotted the target you dump the enhancment and revert back to unaugmented 'see-through' mode. Keeping an eye on somehting you've noticed is easier than spotting it in the first place and you should be able to do it long enouh for casting even without the aid.

Depending on what you're running on your glasses, you may get a penalty to spotting and casting with AR crap cluttering your vision.

Alternatively, once the target(s) located you drop an Indirect area combat spell to blanket their general location with magical destruction. A wall is easier to target.

Sure it should. A mage can't cast at an electronic image at all, and if there is an electronic image over their target, they're going to risk the electronic image blocking their LoS, it basically generates cover for whatever they are casting at, because I'm sure smartlink outlines the target, inserts a couple arrows indicating good spots to aim, maybe a big set of crosshairs, and all kinds of other things, presuming that it doesn't overlay the actual image entirely with a digital recreation to make all that easier.

That sounds pretty munchkin-y, Manunancy. I agree with Smokeskin: that rule refers explicitly to Periscope, Endoscope, and Mage Sight Goggles.

Contacts/Glasses/Goggles don't impose a visual LOS penalty unless you're *using* non-natural optical sensor (Thermo/LL/Enhancement/Flare Comp/etc.), in which case you can't cast at all.

The smartlink is irrelevant, because it's only for guns; you're not using it with magic at all. I agree that it could contribute to AR-clutter, just like all AR; that's a GM call. Not one to be made lightly, either:

This too

Maybe I missed the obvious corrollary, but does this mean that a mage with cyber-eyes can't cast?

I guess that depends. Can your eyes see auras? Could you see in the astral?

Essence-paid counts as natural. For cyber-eyes, etc. Radar, ultrasound, not so much; you'll find people to argue, but…

I was thinking more on the physical plane, I get that it shouldn't affect any casting done astrally. But the cyber-eyes generate a digital image so you would kinda get screwed

And Astral Sight doesn't come from your eyes.

Maybe not your eyes.

Not anyone's.

Back in 3rd ed there was something I read that said a mage could cast through fibre optics and lens because he was looking at the actual object with his own eyes, but electronics like a screen could not be cast through. Maybe the bonus is because the light through these items in 4th ed is altered somewhat, like the way a fun house mirror distorts your vision, you are seeing the light reflected (refracted?)into your eye but the image/light have been bent a little.

Yeah, I dunno. I assume it's because of reduced mobility, reduced field of view, etc. Still, the ability to cast without a real LOS *at all* is worth it.

I believe it was because magic and electronics don't mix well, and seeing a reflection in a mirror somehow counted as 'line of sight'.

Well, yes. That's still the rule. You need a real, optical LOS.

So does your face. ZING!

TBH, the cybereyes thing has me boggled. An innocuous piece of hardware and one of the oft-acquired - would the Magic loss be just the tip of the iceberg?

And in 3e and earlier editions they were more express in what items were optical and what were electronic. Now it is down to the GMs common sense. And quite frankly I can see virtually any answer as possible. Optical thermographic/magnification glasses doubt it, but given this is how mages work it does not seem a stretch that over 60 years of research they figured out a method of doing it. Not having a table for this is generally not a good idea in a sci-fi setting, it is kind of hard to guess what could be invented in the next 60 years.

You're seeing in a direct line to the target: No penalty.

You're seeing via a reflection, optic fiber, or other optical but indirect method: -3 penalty.

You're seeing via an electronically processed image of the target: Cannot cast at the target at all.

AR overlays in your field of vision don't affect anything, but they generally can't help in casting either, unless they're paid for with essence like thermographics in a cybereye.



-karma

*shrug* SR3 *did* make things more explicit, but it's really not that hard: no enhancements work for LOS, but contacts/etc. don't *block* normal vision; indirect optical devices (explicitly listed as Endoscope, etc.) give -3; cyber-/bio-eyes are fine.

Right.

It gets a little unfair of you're getting cast at via mage sight cable by a high initiate mage from inside a tank.






-karma

You had me at 'unfair' and 'mage'.

Sure, but as far as I can tell the only optical device outside of the periscope etc section is binoculars. Apparently they forgot how to make optical glasses, or optical contacts, and the only vision enhancement possible as in it gives the option is magnification. So is the only optical thing in existence binoculars, or can you add mag to glasses like in 3e and earlier, can you add it to contacts, how about goggles? None of those are listed as having a optical option, but logically goggles at the least could. And once they leave out some logical options in the express list, you don't know where the others options are just left out.

No, contacts and glasses, etc., don't affect natural LOS; nothing in that category does. You simply can't use any (electronic) enhancements for casting. You're right that the list is a little wonky, but not in a game-breaking way. Why do you even want magnification for magic? You're right that if you do want it, binoculars is a valid way you get it. (It's also available optically for contacts/etc., see below).

Edited for Stupid Wording.

Why couldn't you add Vision Mag to glasses, contacts, etc? Not that it would affect casting overmuch.




-karma

You can. It's explicitly available as optical.
Oh, crap. I see what you're asking, my wording sucked in that last post. I was trying to say, 'what's wrong with binoculars?', not, 'binoculars are the only optical magnification'. Sorry.

I still dunno why you'd need it, though; does magic even have a range increment?

My current Missions character setup:

Contacts (Rtg 3)
└ Smartlink
└ Image Link
└ Flare Compensation

Goggles (Rtg 6)
└ Mage Sight Cable attachment
└ Low Light
└ Thermographic
└ Ultrasound
└ Vision Enhancement Rtg 3
└ Vision Magnification

All optical, but the only things affecting casting are the Vision Mag and Mage Sight Cable (hooks to the cable installed inside her vehicles, she also keeps a short piece for casting under doors and such)



-karma

Technically, only the Magnification *can* be optical, but none of the rest apply to casting anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Where are the rules for detachable Mage Sight Goggles, and for enhancing them with normal goggle mods? The book lists them with Capacity 1, and the detachable systems are for buildings.

You can, but there is no such thing as optical glasses, goggles or contacts. They are all fully electronic, you should not be able to cast spells with them at all since the default visual method is electronic. That image you see of everything around you with your contacts its electronic. Magnification is in fact a optical or electronic enhancement, but since only binoculars are given the option of being optical none of the other items are technically available to use for any spellcasting purposes. Well I guess monocles work since you can see through the non-obstructed eye, and glasses, goggles you can go cyclops action and lift your ruby visor before blasting people.

I don't think any of this is intended, but by literal RAW binoculars are the only devices with an optical option, therefore the image generated through every other device is in fact electronic.

Again, that's not true. Contacts, glasses, etc. are optically transparent. All enhancements are non-obstructive overlays. You're seeing the object, not an electronic image. The description of binoculars as optical refers the the built-in Magnification mod. You're misreading.

You got a rule for that somewhere. I think that is what is intended, but as far as I can tell that is not what is written.

"Contact lenses: The most recent generation display devices are worn directly on the eyes. They are nearly undetectable but offer little space for enhancements."

It is a generation display device, not a generation overlay device. Nothing here says electronic overlay on optical viewing. Everything seems to say pure electronic display.

It's a contact lens. The glasses are glasses. By definition, you can see through it. The description of AR says 'overlay'. If contacts blocked your natural vision, they'd block natural thermo, etc., and they'd use the Sensor rules, just like wearing a camera on your shoulder. If this were the case, the rules would say so. They don't say it, so they're not. I agree that there are problems in these rules here, but not *that* bad.

Yeah, "electronic imaging" only refers to stuff recorded by a camera, digitally processed, and then re-displayed on a screen.

Glasses, goggles, etc, you're seeing through directly. It's no different than looking through a window at something.



They're listed as OCCUPYING 1 Capacity. Note that they have brackets around the 1, indicating they can be installed into other sensor packages.



-karma

That doesn't make sense, but even if it did, how's that detachable? I agree it should be, it's just not in the rules.

How exactly would you install a periscope into contacts? Or 'heavy goggles' for Mage Sight into glasses? Given that those items "can't take visual enhancements", their Capacity doesn't make sense, but neither does installing them into anything else.

Um well contacts are under the visual sensor and imaging devices section of equipment. These aren't contact lenses they are super sci-fi contacts with wi-fi and display the image you should be seeing normally onto the contact just like you were looking at a monitor. Like I said I do not believe this is intended, but as far as I can tell it is how it is written. People are inserting their real world expectations of what contacts/glasses are into this which is what I think is intended, but the wording on its own says otherwise.

I think the problem is that the wording *doesn't* say otherwise. It doesn't say either way. Now, you're assuming that a display is opaque, using your own real world expectations of what a display is. However, we have transparent displays right now in 2010. http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/24/samsung...amoled-display/

Er, your explanation is just as much extrapolating from the written text as ours is. Just because something is a display doesn't mean you can't also see through it.

What's an LCD display? Is it any less an LCD display if you remove the backlight and casing so you can see right through the LCD panel to whatever is on the other side?

My take on the issue: If you turn the power off on the device and can still can see through it, it's Optical and can be cast through.



-karma

Yeah, well I didn't write it.

I'm pretty sure the INTENDED meaning is that the "mage sight goggles" portion that is listed as occupying 1 capacity is just the end terminal for a mage sight cable system. You can buy Mage Sight Cable separately, it just sockets into the end terminal.

I do frankly find all the stuff you can cram into contact lenses to be a little ridiculous, which is why I made the decision to only put display-based stuff in them. Goggles, though, I could see being robust enough to have a set of prisms that allow a fiber optic transmitted image to be routed into.



-karma

I agree, the whole thing is a mess. But, only things under Visual Enhancements can go in those devices; Mage Sight doesn't qualify, and everything in the Optical Devices category is fluffed as a standalone device. Stupid rules. I only asked because you said it was a Missions character.

Sure maybe if you turn it off you can see through it. But if its on it is displaying in full detail everything you should be seeing, that level of "overlay" is such that I do not think you are also seeing through on an opaque screen. You are literally looking at a full detail electronic image of everything your eyes would be seeing if you had perfect vision and you were not wearing contacts. And I see nothing that says I can have the sensor on, but only the smart gun link or only the thermo. Apparently without adding thermo etc. contacts of the future are displaying a full image of everything onto a screen, not an overlay(maybe an opaque screen), hence why is it called a display and is a sensor.

I amnot even sure why I am arguing this, since I think it is clear this is not what is intended.

My particular character, it really doesn't matter to me if the GM decides it's a standalone device. (Even if the rules specifically allow them to be installed in other stuff.)

I just take an extra action to switch goggles if I run into that situation. No big deal.

Heck, I just realized. I can get ALL this stuff installed into a military armor helmet. Nobody ever actually sees my character anyhow for me to have to worry about the legality. Never leaves her rigger cocoon. No goggle switching needed. Yay!

Actually... there's no reason not to just wear milspec armor in there in general... hmm...


-karma

Shinobi, the rules I quoted earlier about AR make it clear that the overlays do not disrupt your view in that way. At worst, they can apply a 'distraction' penalty. The image (that is, your view of the world) is not electronic except for AR overlays: thermo, smartlink, videoconference, etc.

You're right the the book plays fast and loose with the word 'sensor', though. Some sensors are Vision, while some sensors are Sensors, and the rules about their different uses are messy at best. Still, the category, which includes cameras, is called Visual Sensors *and* Imaging Devices; I see no reason why Visual Sensors doesn't refer only to the cameras, and Imaging Device (admittedly, a bad name) why wouldn't refer to all the 'displays': contacts, etc. Bad word choice, yes, but interpretable as well. For the thermo/etc enhancements, we'll have to assume that these devices include a micro-camera or something *shrug*. More messy rules.

Hehe, yes, Karma. I don't view it as reasonable for any runner to ever have milspec armor, though.

You see this? Right here? This is an extrapolation of the rules, and not what the rules actually say.

The rules at no point state that all images seen on the devices are digitally processed. They don't say the screen is opaque. For all we know, it's just a piece of glass with light outlines and text projected onto it, just like modern fighter pilots have today in their head up displays.

The rules could be written better, more clearly, yes. But, interpreting it one way it makes more logical sense, and interpreting it the other way does less.



At no point do the rules cover what exactly you see when you look through goggles, glasses, etc.

The display could be opaque. They might be see-through. The rules don't say.

But given that the game is set in a world where direct optical line of sight is important to some folks, which makes more sense?



-karma

Heh, well the character in question is pretty much a Pink Mohawk poster girl.

With all the other stuff she has and does, what armor she's wearing is probably the least of her offenses.



Really, though, she could just sit naked in that cocoon. The cocoon already provides 20 points of armor.


-karma

I thought Missions was the 'follow the rules' setting.

It is.

The rules just allow a seriously silly amount of Pink Mohawk if you are so inclined.

I mean, her primary drone looks like Tom Cruise.



-karma

What drone is it? Surely the Otomo is unobtainable.

It's one of the gimpy servant drones, modified.

It's slow as hell, which is why there's also a personal mobility vehicle involved.

Yes. Robot Tom Cruise, driving a Segway. As the team Face.



She does want an Otomo one day, though. There's posters and sales brochures for them pasted all over the inside of her van.

Anyhow, I'll probably post her build over on the Missions forum eventually. This is way off topic.



-karma