After Synner's suggestion of this topic, I figure it's a good idea. Being one of the idiots who need this thread, I can't contribute much, but maybe others more knowledgeable can help out. This is the thread for those of us who feel intimidated or overwhelmed by the idea of vehical, drone, and security rigging and how it can fit into a campaign without being overly distracting.

Well I'll go ahead and turn this thread over to the experts after getting the ball rolling just a bit with this question: How exactly does drone rigging work?

The Abstruse One

Well, where should we start? I'm more interested in the bits like jamming, MIJI, electronic warfare, but it's probably a better idea to start out somewhere more basic...

To prevent electronic warfare against one's drones from being particularly successful, is anything more than good encryption needed? My latest rigger has Rating 5 Encryption, meaning that an intruder would take 25 minutes to gain access if they rolled three successes against TN 9... is there anything save jamming that I'm susceptible to? Will my flux rating of 9.5 (rounded down, but the .5 may make a difference based on other environmental factors) be enough to burn through most jamming?

~J

Buy the biggest remote control deck you can find. I don't care if you have 3 drones and 2 are broke in the garage. When the intruder goes against you he rolls the against the difference in your RCD and his PEM plus the base target number 6. If he has a 6 PEM and you have a 6 RCD, he will roll at 6. If he has a PEM of 6 and you have a RCD of 20 he will need to roll 20's. I forget how much the RCD will run you but I think it better then some schmuck robbing your stable of drones.

EDIT: I have yet to get the revised R3 so I am not sure if this rule has changed. And it has been a long time since I played a rigger, I found magic and having a ball.

¥5,000*rating, with a flat avail of 4/72 hours (I may be wrong on the time).

Once you get the cash, it's a really nice deal. Encryption is still good, though, 'cause you can't start the game with the überdeck.

~J

If they do get into your system and start screwing sround in your channels, you wish to ECCM in your set up, to try and counter act the signal degradation.

ECCM is good, but how necessary is it? I currently lack it, and I need to know what to buy when I start getting cashflow...

~J

You roll your ECCM agaisnt the ECM rating if he jamming or his PEM if he trying to take out your channels. So depending on the person or group of people you has torgued off you may want a really good set of ECCM.

Of course theamount of money you wish to put into fixing you singals is up to you, but if you have a lot of drones in this guys range and he takes over your channels he can farm your herd of drones.


On a side note this can get real ugly for a GM who doesn't know the rules to MIJI and EW and your team rigger does. So if you are not familar with the rules you may need to fudge it on the fly. Other wise a rigger character may nevr spend a dime on drones, just EW gear on scoure the city for fun toys.

So I should pick it up to defend against jamming. I'm probably not going to be facing many foes who can decrypt my network at all, let alone in a reasonable timeframe, and I'm going to be upgrading the thing when I get the money.

Does having a VCR give you any bonuses in Captain's Chair mode, or are you just as well off with a datajack for that?

~J

According to my R3 VCR's don't help with Captains Chair mode except the +1 to reaction and driving tests.

I'll have to check up the rules in the BBB for decryption to see if they offer a bonus to defend your system.

The ECCM will clean up your signals if they do get in. Your channels can really add a lot of negative target numbers to your tests. If he gets in and really runs over your command channel he can then issue comand sto your drone to attack you. He could take over your simsense channel and add negatives to the things yor feeling or adding false possitives to your FDDM or IVIS. You could wind up targeting friend and then haveing your whole network of drones follow suit. I hear some of things in some groups and I would hate to see what happens to a team gettign pounded by their back up rigger.

Check ECCM for your RCD, I believe they only work for EW against your deck, but are rather cheap, compared to a full set of vehicle ECCMs adn you can take the with you if you have a RCD that can be carried (in a cyber arm or back pack).

If the opposing rigger has 24 dice to throw for decrypting my network he'll get an average of about two successes, which is one less than he needs to penetrate the network at all, and if he beats the odds and gets a third it'll take him 25 minutes.

I feel safe. See if you can poke holes in my safety, though, because I'd rather you do it than some security rigger in a zero-zone.

~J

Kage if you read about the Remote-Control Encrpytion Module, it states that the encryption standards are different the the ones on the BBB. Meaning that currently if that is what you are using for encryption your phones and radios are fine, but your Network is bare ass in the air. Currently any Joe Runner could walk into your network. You will need a Remote-Control Encrytion Module. With a rating of 1 through 10 you can get some good encryption but now you are suseptible to the PEM, which can make short work of the encryption and make ECCMs very good friends.

So right now you need to go shopping a RCEM should be on top of the list and then some RCD ECCMs.

EDIT: Up until a few weeks ago I didn't know they had encryption in the BBB, when our fixer asked if we needed some and I had to look up the price.

EDIT2: Actually you will be attackable by the Rigger Decryption Module and then the Protecol Emulation Module will make short work of your network.

In captain's chair mode the VCR doesn't help at all as all driving tests are accomplished by the drone's pilot score. The only thing that might help is the fact that while in CC mode you still use your rigging initiative score, but I'm not 100% on that.

Captain's chair has several advantages in that you can supervise and command many drones at once, you also won't suffer dumpshock if a drone is destroyed while in CC mode. Only when you have to use your rigger's drek hot gunnery or piloting/driving skill should one really jump into the drone to make full use of its abilities. When you make that jump though keep in mind it takes a complex action to percieve through another drone which also go into auto mode. Make sure your other drones aren't in trouble if you make the jump.

I've got the RCEM, rating 5. I hadn't even considered the existence of the other one. As to the decryption module, as I mentioned, it's not very likely that I'll get decrypted anytime soon by anything less than a Rating 24 module. Possible, but not likely, and it'll take the better part of half an hour anyway.

~J

im wondering where you get the 25 min timeframe from. the rigger 3 says 10 combat turns and thats at most 30 seconds.

Rigger 3 directs one to the BBB Defeating Encryption section, which states that it takes a base time of (Encryption rating)*5 minutes to defeat encryption, divided by successes over 1/2 encryption rating, rounded up. 30 seconds is for infiltrating the network if it isn't encrypted.

~J

Sorry I got confused double checking my advice, I thought you said you used the BBB encryption devices.

I would still increas my RCEM and some ECCM. If the guy gets 3 success he is in. You don't know that until he does something stupid to alert you. True he may be banging away at your system for 25 minutes, but how long does it take your runner friends to do the job. He could be sitting in your network for a few minutes listening to set your friends up and then attack you. 3, 9's are rather easy to get in our games, I don't know why but they are.

To counter this you will again need a rather large RCD, because his ability to hide in your network is determined by the intrusion factor, his PEM against your RCD.

RCD is getting upgraded to at least 8 or 10 as soon as I get the chance anyway. 6 drones is too limiting.

Is it possible to run multiple decks at once so as to prevent lowering the encryption of a network while taking over drones from a hostile network?

~J

I'll have to do some checking on that. I am not sure, that has never came up in all my years playing.

Hopefully someone can answer that as I have to go, got a game to be at in 30 minutes.

Anyone else out there with questions, I appreciate your silence while I speak as I'm obviously so much more important than all of you, but feel free to join in.

~J

i dont think you can run more then one deck at ones alltho there is nothing in the rules specificly saying so from what i recall...

Hmm...

If you're rigging a motorcycle, does it look like you've managed to fall asleep while on a moving bike? What keeps you from being flung off when making a sharp turn? You can normally avoid adverse impacts to the crotch region when landing hard from a bike jump by standing up a little, what happens the RAS-overridden in the same situation?




-karma

Where does it say you lose a channel? What you lose is a port for a drone on the regular deck, because now your CRD acts as a drone, well sort of. Then you you use the lowest number of ports to determine how many drones can be controled.

Am I missign something somewhere? I don't see anything about losing channels.

I am still not seeing any benefits to running multiple RCD through a server or other wise. It would be cheaper just to use a big deck in your mobile command center, or what ever vehicle it is you have your stuff in. If you wanted to use mutiple decks you would need them to be close to each other or get dropped from your network. Not to mention you would be buying a lot of extra gear to protect your networks.

Sorry, bad terminology. Both decks lose a port, is what I meant.

As for the benefit... it's the only way a rigger can control more than 10 drones at once. If you link all the rating-6 decks you can to a rating-4 CRD, you can theoretically control 20 drones. Which is flat-out scary to contemplate-- do you want to be on the recieving end of a 20-drone assault squad, backed by a rigger? *Especially* if the rigger's got Battletac IVIS and FDDM?

I don't believe anything limits RCD ratings to 10...

~J

Ok, finally got a chance to look, and I can't find anything about a server system for CRDs... book/page#?

~J

Would using the battle tac system allow you to pull up ionformation in the network as a simple action? If it works for teh handelds that are connected it should work for the rigger with the master unit as well.

I would imagine so... not sure I understand your question, though.

~J

Kagetenshi your page reference is Page 85 R3 Revised. Also another thing to keep in mind is that it only removes 1 port, the port from the RCD, not the CRD. Also another cool thing to look at is, if you are going the CRD route, don't put accessories into your CRD, throw them on the RCD and use it to serve, as all accessories of both decks get combined

Doesn't the higher rating of RCD increase the amount of damage from dumpshock that a Rigger suffers?

The Power, though not the damage level.

~J

Anyone brave or foolish enough to try to explain OpTempo? I think I'll take another look at the rules in the morning...

~J

First of all, let me say how glad I am this thread was created. Having just started playing my first rigger ever, I was thinking about starting a similar thread myself. The discussion thus far, however, seems to be aimed at a level far more advanced than I (and I think most starting riggers) are- any chance some comments could be made geared towards us newbies?

For example:

I'm not entirely clear on how to use the rules for manual versus sensor enhanced gunnery. Seeing as I'm predominantly a drone rigger, I imagine you could see how this could be annoying . In order to get a better grasp of things, why don't I lay out the rules as I understand them so that you can yell at me for what I'm doing wrong.

Manual gunnery:
The rules, as I understand them:
-Only useable when you're directly rigging a vehicle; ie, cannot be used while in captain's chair mode.
-Drones you have given instructions to but are not being rigged directly CANNOT use manual gunnery
-Uses standard ranged combat rules (ie, perception and range modifiers, cover, etc) plus some extra vehicle specific modifiers
-Smartlink compatible, if both you, the vehicle, and the weapon in question have a smartlink
-Requires a complex action, so you can't make multiple attacks with a vehicle weapon in one initiative pass.

Questions I have:
-Since it requires a complex action to use manual gunnery no matter what type of fire you're using, is there any reason not to use full auto with guns that support it? (other than the recoil, which should be trivial given the halving of recoil mods for weapons mounted on vehicles)
-Since you're seeing through your vehicle's sensors, you use whatever they have as far as imaging technology is concerned, correct? Anyone care to lay out exactly what that amounts to? (thermographic, ultrasound, flare comp, etc) I know it differs by sensor level, but I can't remember specifics about how.


Sensor enhanced gunnery:
The rules, as I understand them:
-Can be used either when directly rigging a vehicle OR when a drone acts on your instructions when you aren't directly rigging.
-The ONLY way for drones to use weapons
-Normal ranged modifiers do NOT apply: No smartlinks, no perception mods, no range mods, no cover mods, etc.
-The only modifiers that DO apply are those specifically listed for Sensor enhanced gunnery (no BBB handy.. anyone want to quote a page number?)
-Sensor enhanced gunnery really consists of two complex actions: getting a sensor lock on a target (one complex action), and then firing on a locked target (another complex action). Now, this means that (assuming you always kill your target in one shot) that using sensor enhanced gunnery limits you to firing only once ever other initiative pass (as you have to lock on to a new target before firing).
-Base target number for gunnery test is the target's signature: for metahumans, trolls are 5, the rest are 6. This means it is usually HARDER to hit a metahuman using sensor enhanced gunnery than with manual, since you don't get a smartlink, and are usually starting at a base tn of 6 rather than 4.
-You get to add 1/2(round down) of the sensor rating of the vehicle you're using to the gunnery test. Combat pool can also be added.
-When a drone uses sensor enhanced gunnery when you're not directly rigged in, it uses its pilot rating instead of your gunnery skill. This means a drone is apt to not be terribly good at gunnery (considering that the highest you can enhance a drone's pilot rating to is 3 at chargen), even if you add some autosofts.

Questions I have:
-The rules are a little fuzzy on exactly how many actions are required for one use of sensor enhanced gunnery. It specifically states that making the sensor lock test requires a complex action, and firing the weapon takes a complex action (suggesting at least two combat passes to lock on and fire). It also reads, however, as though you can fire your weapon as soon as you lock on; as in, the same turn. This is rather an important thing to have clarified, as it can potentially mean either halving or double one's rate of fire (depending on which interpretation you're currently using).
-Direct line of sight: Not really clear on when this applies. As it means -3 to your gunnery test, more info here is rather important. For instance, if my Steel Lynx is firing on an orc standing 10 meters away on a sidewalk, does it have DOS? What if it is a semi-busy sidewalk? No?

Rules that apply to both:
-Can only fire ONE weapon per use.
-Uses the Gunnery skill for ALL weapons, regardless of type.
-Combat pool can be applied, if you're directly rigging a vehicle.

Questions I have:
-Unless you're dealing with HEAVY modifiers (long ranges, large amounts of cover/perception modifiers), aren't you better off using manual gunnery rather than sensor enhanced gunnery (even though the BBB says that sensor enhanced is more accurate)? You don't need to lock on, and you can use a smartlink. This means, assuming decent conditions, target numbers of 2 rather than 6, and you can fire once every pass rather than once every other pass (assuming you are switching targets with every shot).
-More questions will be added when I remember them

Comments?

I never have. We just say it cost 200 nuyen this run gas and call it a day or let our lifestyle cover it if it just local driving.

I think you can make a manual gunnery shot using sensors, it's just not enhanced by the sensors (you're eyeballing the readings rather than actually "locking on").

~J

Then use the sensor component listing on page 135 of the BBB. Then use the visual modifiers that those systems give. Like Low light in the dark offers +4?.

Kage, my R3 says you should only really use the OpTempo rules for missions that are not your usual run around town jobs, they are more for the smuggler games and any other long range running. So I would not use OpTempo for your daily runs, maybe if you decide runnign a few crates of BTls to the FRFZ. The only thing you need to do is figure out the cost of the vehicle OpTempo rating, then at the end of the job multiply that by the Kilometers they went in the car. Generally just a big guess. Nothing really special, they just added rules to the Gm saying, Bob your Bison just went 4000 klicks it cost you 5,000 nuyen in gas and oil chages to keep it running. In other words just fudge it.

He's talking missile intelligence.

~J

Gah... *head slap* missed that one... out in the cold too long...

I've had a rigger in my game since my fiance began playing SR, I've mucked through the Rigger and Vehicle rules. Vehicle combat seemed quite difficult to me originally since you have to calculate so much into a vehicle manuever score. Problem I had once was my friend was trying to drive a roadmaster against some Yamaha Rapiers, he was going to slow down and ram them, but deceleration with a Roadmaster is a target # 6 to decelerate. my buddy had a big complaint when he apparently couldn't figure out how to stop his truck. Another big issue I've had is with multiple drones, and how to handle them in a combat scenario, in addition to the Rigger. Can the rigger perform any other actions in addition to running her drones? The way I think we were running it, the Rigger was sending commands and her drones would act on her initiative, and she would also perform her own actions, with modifiers for paying attention to her Rig.

I think this topic needs some Characters generated and some runs done.

Let's all list some examples of missions we'd like to see played out, and see who will step in as the GM/Player for each mission. That way we can all learn. If no one else ops to run the missions, I'll GM


Some things I'd like to see, is maybe a simple Vehicle Combat, then a single drone op(for basics of Rigging) and then a multiple drones combat, then a ECM MIJI kind of operation. anyone come up with any good missions?

It's pretty hard to stop a fair-sized van in a given distance... though I'm pretty sure minor deceleration doesn't require a test.

~J

yeah, the way I ruled it was that since he was trying to do a minor breaking but fast enough that the enemy wouldn't notice and so it would manuever him into position to ram the bikes with his fat truck arse, that they noticed his deceleration and manuevered themselves to compensate. This doesn't say he doesn't slow the truck, just that it had no real game effect.

Ok...

I'll make a rigger char and run it through some of those things like in the matrix thread, all I need is
A) a gm
B) some time to throw together a balanced starting rigger using priority
c) a run.

-Mike R.

(PS my R3 book is not nearby, so I will play this as a player who may be wrong )

I've volunteered as GM unless someone more Rigger experienced is willing to, if I do run it then I'll probably be making heavy references to the R3 and SR3 books before I post anything, even then I might miss something so the rest of the gallery can make comments I'll try to think up some decent runs for the examples, and I hope some other people can come up with some ideas as well. I think a Smuggle run might be appropriate for the single vehicle combat(going over combat manuevers etc.) Single Drone might be well played as a sneak and surveillance kind of run, with some possibilities of Drone combat. MultiDrone might be better handled with a Rigger Overwatch style mission. ECM runs, I'll have to think about unless someone has some ideas for it. and feel free to take time on a balanced rigger, since if I'm the GM in the pipe, it'll take a lil while to dig up some good ideas for some missions/challenges

Ok...

starting avail (8 or 6)
priority system Ok with you?

lets start with smuggling, we could work ECM ECCM into that without too much trouble.

I'll post the Char sometime today or tommorrow.

-Mike R.