Well from above the submarine. Hell maybe its sub that explots the LTA mod IDK sure would be funny to watch.

Just checking, you do realize my last comment was in fact from a Bond movie, yes?




-karma

I think they did it in Crimson Skies, too, with airships? And in lots of space SciFis. Bond villains do these things best, naturally.

Of cores but I main thing was to really pull bond you have to do it a lot.

Reasons why a Torpedo Attack wont work :

1- Torpedoes are slow (around 120 mph) the reason why ASROC has been developped, a water spirit could intercept it, even without using astral move. it provide also time for the alerted Spider to try to hack it.

2- Torpedoes need an homing device, using a silence spell centered on it will cancel this homing device and only sheed dumb luck would provide a hit. Granted the target is not moving but the launch will be from some distance away and it take very specialised knowledge to secure a hit, and a dedicated torpedo.

3- Torpedo charge will be hard to compute : too low and boat wont sink fast enough for people on it to escape on magical ways, or speedboat, at the very least they will be fully alerted and expecting opposition. Runners will have hard time escaping coastguard and magical reinforcement (Monaco is a very high security area and during Grand Tour there is so many high level target that ringing the bell will be very dangerous).

4- If the charge is too strong the risk to hurt/kill the target became very real.

5- The water spirit will have to fight against the spirits protecting the target and any magical defense that will be raised by the attack.

Remember : it is a high profile and somewhat unsecure major player, the opposition will be ABOVE the player level not on par or behind. You can expect his security detail to be a mix of rank 6 and 400 BP+.

I think the indirect approach will be better, but I need a way to point it out to the players before they get slaughtered. Perhaps just a bit of legwork will work ?
Also the Yacht got Extra-territorial protection as it belong to an established corporation. Definitely not an easy task for them, but the prize could make it really worth it, especially if they manage to take control of the boat, that alone put the reward to a 7 number figure.

My Players

1. Plan and fight over planning till the last minute.
2. Spend every penny on complicated rare gear and complain the job doesn't pay enough.
3. Break into two groups of thought and fight up until plan implementation.
4. Halo drop into nearby ocean. (Along with a million nuyen in gear.)
5. Hacker and rigger go off plan and begin rigged boat and drone assault.
6. Halo team using underwater engines close on boat concealed by tech and spirits.
7. Matrix team engages boat and its defenses.
8. More arguing as water team arrives in middle of clusterfuck.
9. Target begins his escape.
10.Hacker drops everyone from his slaved network but not before planting worms.
11. Team a and team b engage each other.....target dies as a result of collateral damage.
12. Mission successful everyone makes up and goes home to collect a paycheck.

AFAIK, none your your torpedo comments are relevant to SR4. The torpedoes in SR4 are quite deadly (extra blast effects in water), and the rocket torpedo is an option. Intercepting torpedos as a spirit uses what mechanic, by the way? I feel pretty sure it'd be a suicide interception, at best. I wouldn't expect them to be hackable at all, even if you had underwater radio.

Torpedoes are also high Availability and Forbidden, which limits their use a little bit. *shrug*

Build your own torpedoes?

Why should the spirit detonate the torpedo ? all he need was to twist his aim or retain it.

And I agreed the torpedoes will be TOO lethal for the job.

I think you may want to rethink using the term "un-secure" to refer to your uber secure, protected from every angle of attack drug lord.

That said, the only survivable ways to engage a superior force are to:

1. Hit them hard and fast with surprise, and fade before they can mount an effective defense. You seem to have effectively made this impossible. Be sure your players are aware this is impossible.

2. Use subterfuge to launch a surprise "attack". Doc Chase covered this pretty well, but if the superior security manages to recover reasonably well, you are still looking at a slaughter of your runners. If the "surprise" can negate at least one of the magical, physical, or matrix security measures, they stand a decent chance of some of them making it out alive.

3. Use subterfuge and stealth to sneak on board, kidnap the drug lord, and make your escape with his security team being none the wiser to your presence. Your security measures have made this option extremely difficult, if not impossible.

I may be overestimating your security team based on your statements of the security team skill level.

Out of curiosity, do you have a plan of attack that you'd like to see the players use? One that you'd give a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding?

Torpedoes can also have wire guidance, which negates the need for a beacon (and makes the torpedo unhackable, as it doesn't have a transmitter).

However, since we're trying to capture someone, all the comments of 'sink the boat' seem more than a little...I dunno. I suppose part of me wishes so many people wouldn't run directly to 'Plan B' the moment a challenge appears.

Agreed, I understand the 'too lethal' concept. Why *wouldn't* the spirit detonate the torpedo? They're not exactly designed to be caught. As I asked, is there a power that lets them catch explosive projectiles, or what? SR4 treats them as missiles, not vehicles.

I assumed IKerensky mean 'unsecure' in the sense of 'likely to be incredibly defensive, because he's not a god'.

You pointed out why I posted here, I was wondering if I doesn't make the job too hard on them.

I guess I will lower opposition level while giving enough pointers that using brute direct force is not a good idea.

I think they NEED to have someone onboard regardless of the method choosen for the extraction because they need to know where the target will be when they act. Guess the "entertainer" wont get checked to closely for magic (weapons are already "uncovered") so they will manage to bring some people on board. Then perhaps the "make things go boom" plan will work (as there is some gunner happy players with demolition expertise) but as a way of diversion during escape or to camo the kidnaping in wet job and buy some time.

For security, I will have guards on deck and Runners on station in their quarters, perhaps one spider/hacker doing a check of the boat systema from time to time, lowering the magical defense is harder as I just cannot see some kind of watcher around the ship/water (but not the target because he dont like getting watched).

They are expecting journalist/paparazzi so they are a bit on alert/warry of incomer but that could actually get a good thing for the runner because they could use it at a diversion (triggerring a response and focusing attention out of their way), it will also significantly lower the use of lethal force against incomers as the drug-baron doesnt wait to raise too much attention/bad rep.

Meta-gamingly I am trying to 'teach' the player to use less brute force and more indirect approach, they are beginner and many of them are basic munchkin with experience in RPG and no experience in roleplaying. I give them combat where they can flex their muscle but also situatio to flex their brains and smile, the tricky thing is that they tend currently to try and do both at the same time.

Yes "unsecure" as paranoid.

Torpedo run in heavy pression and somewhat denser environement than missiles, they usually use magnetic rather than simple contact fuse. They are also supposed to not detonate without order/hit because you usually dont want the target to know you missed her and lower the chance of accident.

I see the spirit as mainly water, dense like a heavy flux (current ?wave? lack the word), he could redirect, alter the torpedo course or even engulf it without detonation because he isn't metallic.

That's, of course, my interpretation based on my wargaming experience in naval warfare.

Torpedo could be wireguided, but given their range they usually arent so up to the target, they usually resort to inner homing for actual attack . Wire guidding help put the torpedo in the target area without ressorting to active detection who will warn the target of the launcher/torpedo position. When in range of Torpedo sensor, it activate his own device and be on her merry way.

My approach would be to look for stats of similar targets - a crime lord that has many enemies both within and without, needs to be very secure and has resources that are out of reach of most other criminal organisations, and adapt that to a sea borne situation.

Or just summon a horde of angels... (esp. from 1:17)

Bye
Thanee

The problem with that is the fact that the target most likely has atleast one angel summoner of his own, it doesn't work so well if your horde of angels has to go against 2 hordes of their angels.

How heavy handed do you want to be with this? How IC or OOC? Because if this is the case then there's a couple ways of communicating it. Just tell them SR is a game of ninja-fu for moneys. Or if you prefer more IC, have the Don simply tell them that it isn't supposed to be noisy and flashy. If it is, well, that's not good for the runners.

Other than that you could go kinda mean. When they do make alot of noise with the kidnapping, give them the appropriate amount of Noteriety this would bring. Or have a second team on hand, prepared with the knowledge that these ass-clowns are going to go in, make alot of noise, and generally screw things up and get all the attention. The professionals know what to do then. It's harsh, like I said.

Another thing to consider is how aware are they of all the stuff that's in SR? My players tend to not run with alot of high tech or gadgets, heavy on the magic though. I'm trying to bring in more a bit at a time, myself, so they don't think I'm picking on them (too much) and making it clear that this is stuff they can try to get, too.

Just to jump back into this late: I think the mini-torpedoes could be used to cripple the ship with relative safety; it'd also be easier to fire more of them from all sides.

Would that count as a battle of spirits, or a religious schism?

*Looks at ship from the shore*
"Got eyes on"
*casts ignite*
"Ok take them as they bail".

Old Testament.

Sounds like a solid run to me. My Favorite part is Target dies as a result of Collateral Damage.
You know that is the goods! Do your players really have the parachute skill?

Everyone should have that, its the one skill you really don't want to have to default

A couple of comments.

1) Your drug lord might be paranoid and rich, but it's unlikely that his yacht can really be guarded against everything.
2) As pointed out, both himself and several of the crew might well be addicted to one or more types of drugs.
3) An IMO "realistic" level of security onboard the yacht would be 2-4 "propper" security bodyguards doubling as crew, 1 cook, 1 rigger/mechanic, 6 servants. The yacht will likely have a number of drones for basic cleaning. I would not expect him to have a Mage, and if he does, I'd expect him to be a low competence one (mages are still both rare and expensive to employ. Especially skilled ones). The bodyguards will be well trained, and might well have military training of some sort. The cook is probably a good cook, but I wouldn't expect him to be much of a fighter. The servants will likely be be skilled at providing service, and they might also have received some weapons training, but I would not expect them to be above rating 3. The Rigger/Mechanic I'd expect to be rating 3-4.
4) Security systems will likely include sonar, radar, anti-theft system and electrified hull. Some rail mounted drone protection might exist in some places (outside and corridors). CCTV will likely be available in some places. The yacht might have a pop-up turret or two for air defense, and possibly some arial drones from suitable launch racks (likely concealed). The matrix systems will have a good firewall (I'd say rating 5) and some agents for protection of the systems. Additionally he might have considdered having most of the security systems run on hardlines rather than wirelessly, making them more difficult to hack. The yacht will likely enclude all sorts of entertainment systems running wirelessly. Security on these low-risk systems will likely be average. The yacht will include a satellite uplink and state-of-the-art communication systems, and these will be highly encrypted and defended against intrusion (rating 6). I'd expect the yacht to have a couple of jet skies, an inflateble boat, possibly a submersible type drone, and some sort of emergency liferaft.
5) Yachts are bloody expensive, and I seriously doubt that the owner really want his prized yacht shot to hell by crewmen wielding heavy weapons, assault rifles etc. inside the vessel. For this reason I'd expect most interriour defenses to be gas-based, rather than bullet- or explosives-based.

As for how I'd approach the run you mention, I'd either sink the boat when it's a way off shore (you don't want rescue services to show up too quickly), and then try grabbing the target when he's in the water. Alternatively I'd want to try to infiltrate the boat, possibly by someone sporting a physical mask (replacing one of the crew with limited contact with the target, would be my choice). Gas-weapons can be brought onboard to subdue the opposition, either by the masked infiltrator when (s)he boards the boat, or alternatively by receiving the 'ware from a team mate bringing it to him from the waterside. An alternative to gassing the target could be to drug him when he's on deck during the night, and off-shore. Push him overboard and extradite him with a minisub or divers. With a bit of luck it can be written off to falling overboard and drowning.

*Cough*Casey Ryback*Cough*

Don't be silly. This is SR4. Everything is wireless, even if it doesn't make sense for it to be.

"Remind me again why we burned the wireless signal from my data-boxers?" "Because you're a huge Troll, and no one is going to try and take your underpants away from you." "Ah. They would feel inadequate if they did." "Yeah... Yeah, we'll go with that. Sure."

1) Fake up a rescue boat/chopper of some sort (or steal a genuine one).

2) Set up a situation in which rescue is required.

Something involving a mind-controlled sea monster seems appropriate.

Or some simple limpet mines put in place by a small, stealthed aquatic drone or creature.

***

But really, if the guy himself is the target, then sinking the yacht then "rescuing" him seems the simplest route. He is certain to have a rescue team already in place, so you'd needs to eliminate and replace them, but do that and he'll just walk into your arms if the danger to his boat is severe enough.

Wait... It's a drug dealer on a yacht. Why didn't I think of this before?

Sneak in with the rotating Joytoys he gets shipped to him!

Psh, CanRay, we totally covered that: undercover face.

Ah, OK, never mind. Probably why I didn't think of it, it was already mentioned.

But you know what we didn't cover? Self-destructing Otomo-mimic joytoy! Or just a bunraku-doll with an area bomb.

That made my day.
Thanks

The 'don't detonate without order/hit' is more for safety than discretion concerns - the need for a decent speed to be able to catch up with the target means torpedo engines are rather noisy - anything with a passive sonar in the water will know one is around. It's even worse during the terminal run, when you will usually have both an active sonar and the torp's engine going to max power. The russian 'fast torpedoes' - which are more underwater missiles than anything else - are even worse. Running a rocket motor underwater is VERY noisy...

Most of the "torpedo" scenarios presented so far have involved a Silence spell. Which negates the whole noise and Sonar problem.

Which is why wire-guided optical targeting was mentioned - a Silenced torpedo couldn't use it's own sonar to "see" with.




-k

Or location-guided. The boat wasn't moving, I thought?

Why not a camouflaged Blimp drone with three levels of radar absorbent material at high altitude.

I suggest getting the Federated Boeing Kull and converting it to a LTA drone which gives it a max speed of 150.

Using coded burst transmissions for status updates and using visual recognition software to track said ship to minimize signal exposure.

Arm drone with a few Aztec Series 5 Iron Bombs.

Cruise at a leasury 3000 feet always trailing the vessel by camera and radar and when they stop at a good position: bombs away.