This biodrone has a Strength of 10 (I think) and a damage value of 13, which is more than a long narrow burst from an HMG.
Does anyone else think this isn't quite right? Isn't the DV for dragon claws less than this?

Given that all man(tiger)-powered melee attacks are based on half strength, that's a modifier of +8 where most technological marvels struggle to beat +3.

Hm... have to look it up, where is it exactly? Running Wild?

But yeah, normaly it is str/2+(1-3)+adept/magic/martial powers. Dragons have lower damage, too (like you said), they should start 50% higher or something.... Weird... but maybe it is just that the system for damage breaks down at high/low values (It does).

It should have Str/2+2 or something.

Well I would expect a Dragon to have a 20+ str
so your average dragons is doing dv 10+X+magic bonus of some kind. Maybe 19dv.. with claws, or bite.

Well, a normal Dragon is statted with 30-40 (per type) strength and a great one has about 10 more. So yeah, it makes at LEAST 25DV + mods. But all those "beast" which have such a high strength seems capped at 10DV base damage. But for example the ROC (Another insane strenght beast /Str: 45) has its 24DV. There seems some problems with the consistence.

Clearly the robo-tiger has a rating 3 martial arts skillsoft, and since it is a biodrone is probably awakened (1 point of adept powers can add the necessary +2 DV to the unarmed attacks, which are probably naturally at +3).

I have noticed this.

Why would a biodrone probably be awakened?

Here's what I've noticed about such things:

1) Dragons. Dragons are supposed to be massively awsome spellcasters with access to most spells. This means that every one you ever face will have access to the Elemental Aura spell, using tail slaps/wing buffets/headbutts in lieu of claws/bite, as this method of attacking grands a considerable increase in lethality - from 10P with no AP to 25P + Successes, -1/2 AP, plus elemental effects (or all damage being Sonic. That much Stun is negligable that it is in fact Stun. It will overflow).

Natural Weapon damages should be balanced though. I mean, a rhinocerous' horn is more dangerous than a dragon's bite? Really?

2) The Cybertooth Biodrone. This is a horribly written attempt at a cyberdrone. Apparently the Bone Lacing damage value is added to the existing Natural Weapon, breaking many of the Rules (or lacking, the Common Sense) presented elsewhere. In addition, some of the modifications have increased the DV of the subject with no reasoning presented.

First place I could pull up the additional +2 DV, from within the rules.

Oh, I thought you meant there was some significant connection between being a biodrone and being Awakened.

Right, but the biodrone in question does not have any Magic rating.

Plus, the fact that losing Essence through 'ware means losing Magic means this is a very, very poor option. It's better to work with pre-templated warforms or chimeras.

That was my thinking: what Awakened critter *can* survive any 'ware installation with a Magic rating intact? Not many.

Is it really a safe assumption that EVERY Dragon knows EVERY spell? Or even that EVERY dragon knows (and feels like Sustaining/Quickening) Elemental Aura? I agree with you that every GREAT Dragon knows every spell but if we give every (non-Great) dragon access to most spells and assume they're ALL using any spells, it makes it harder to differentiate them and make them feel unique by giving them discrete, diverse skillsets.

In short, I do not think that all dragons should be using elemental aura. And I would like it if dragons were a bit more dangerous in ordinary non-magically-augmented combat (dragons qua monsters as opposed to dragons qua mages).

It is especially odd that their DV is in no way a function of their Strength (as far as I can tell).

Some Shifters, but that's about it.

Possibly dragons, but I definately don't want to fight a biodrone dragon. Eep.

I pity the fool that turns a dragon into a biodrone. If you can pull it off, the repercussion from Dragonkind as a whole should probably be pretty extreme for an offense like that. (Dragons don't exactly present a unified front, but still...turning one into a cyborged slave...)

Emphasis mine. It is not a safe assumption - it is RAW. Also, I said "most" spells, not "all" spells. The sheer odds of a dragon being encountered without some variant of Elemental Aura should be considered a statistical impossibility.

They were not meant to be used without some form(s, and usually many) of magic.

It is odd. However, the Natural Weapon power does state that it is in no way linked to the Strength of a critter at all:

Not all biodrones are "cyborged slaves" - many are just supremely enhanced with cybernetic and biological combat bonuses. I imaging that there would be at least one lesser dragon or dragonkin out there that would agree to experiment with this option. SEIES and TRACES would greatly increase the combat benefits of dragonkind, as would many forms of bioware and cyberware.

All that makes a Biodrone a Biodrone is a Stirrup Interface OR a CAST system OR an Orientation Goad. An Orientation Goad implanted to a dragon with the wireless removed would classify it as a Biodrone, allowing it to also gain other implants. Again, SEIES and TRACES would be amazing for a dragon to have, as would many pieces of bio/cyber.

Dragon with MBW3
Titanium Lacing
And a laser on top of his head.

Um. The wireless removed? How exactly does it work, then?

I don't think SEIES and TRACES would have any function on a dragon. They're for allowing dumb animals be more humanlike.

I'm sorry sir, but dragons are an endangered species, which makes them are protected by international laws. We do have some mutated wyverns. They are veeeery angry.

Frigging awesome. Zoink!

Sure I am sure that Lyfware doesn't care that his little cousin is turned into a mindless killing machine under the control of some AA corp. I would not want to be the head of R and D there.

Most spells != always has elemental aura.

All fluff I've read and some rules text (of perhaps questionable canonicity) indicates that Dragons REALLY REALLY REALLY do not respond well to 'ware. (Note the SR character that is my namesake.)

Enjoy. : )

Maybe if Elemental Aura was simply one spell, but I count 11 different elements, each of which could be combined any number of ways (Fire/Acid, Metal/Blast, ...). That's a lot of spells. The statistical probability of one dragon not knowing at least one version of Elemental Aura should be considered a statistical impossibility.


With all due respect, all the fluff in the world won't change the crunch.


I'm sure Lofwyr would be proud of his cousin fooling those poor mortals into thinking they had a dragon under control. And I'm sure SK had some hand in the tech to create the 'ware, specifically so he could get a cousin into a position of relative power in another corp's heirarchy. That sounds draconic enough to be plausible.

And the entire thing was an example to show another critter that had a magic that could survive implantation, not provide people with a good resource for actually creating biodrone templates (... although, now that I've given it some thought, that's something really nasty to spring on a veteran game...).


Yes and no. They do do that, but SEIES also gives a +2 DP bonus to Melee and Ranged Defense Tests, and TRACES gives a +2 Surprise Tests, both of which are fairly dangerous upgrades to an already dangerous dragon.

In the realm of theorycraft, of course.

I mean, more humanlike in that they have a better defense test and surprise test. Personally, I wouldn't let them stack, and the dragon can use a TacNet instead. I wasn't talking about the RAW, because anything involving dragons is automatically ignore-all-rules time.

Again, yes and no.

SEIES and TRACES allow animal drones to act more humanlike, but the combat bonuses are listed separately. In both cases the 'ware states that it allows animals to act outside of the abilities of a normal animal, then says "X also grants" or "Further, it may add," meaning that in addition to the humanlike abilities the 'ware grants, those pieces of 'ware also give above-human bonuses.

Again, that's what I'm saying: the bonuses are *from* being more humanlike. I'm not talking about the RAW.

And again, I'm saying that those bonuses are clearly defined as being in addition to being more humanlike, as specified in the 'ware itself.

No, they're not. Look, you don't get to use your crazy RAW arguments on my fluff opinions, Neraph. Nothing about the SEIES or TRACES description indicates what you're claiming, as if it even mattered.

Well if I were to interpret RAW that way (and yes incidentally it is an interpretation, because if RAW meant "all dragons know some form of elemental aura and most other spells" that is exactly what it would say) and also knowing most (which could be considered to be anything 51% and up) of like I don't know how many HUNDRED spells without knowing one of eleven spells DOES not constitute a "statistical impossibility". I am not a statistician but even I know that.

But we are getting way off topic. All I was saying is that I think it would make dragons significantly less interesting. I like to think that 'most spells' is vague enough that dragons can each have a unique ability set that isn't identical to every other dragon which gives each dragon more personality, panache, etc.



Okay, first off, before I even think about citing it as a source, what is this? I also genuinely want to know what it is.

http://rapidshare.com/files/420599887/RC_0...ers_preview.pdf (Note: Link only good for 10 DLs atm.)

A. A (clever) hoax?
B. Rulestext that was (wisely) culled from Runner's Companion.
C. A preview of some future runner's companion.
D. None of the above.

Secondly, I'm going to flip through the other rulebooks I have on hand and see if I can come up with anything to support my theory that Dragons have, at the very least, the Sensitive System negative quality or some similar problem with 'ware. I am starting to think it may just have been my imagination.

Anyway I don't know why the flavor text would harp on it so much if it was not at least RAI that Dragons do not react well to 'ware.

Obviously I can't argue with your opinions. I'm just stating that the Rules specifically mention that in addition to being able to act like a trained metahuman, TRACES also gives a +2 Melee Combat Tests and Dodge Tests. That seems to be unrelated to it acting as a metahuman. And the reason SEIES gives a +2 to Surprise Tests is because the drone in question is patched into the area's networking, not because it's able to act more metahuman-ly. It's similar to a more specialized version of a TacNet.


Clarify please. I'm not sure what you're trying to refute here. If you're trying to say that the text does not say what I'm quoting, you'd be wrong. But you being that wrong is out of character, so I know that can't be it.

April Fool joke.

Hehe. I figured it out: we're talking about different things. TRACES has the explicit function of basically 'letting animals act like a normal metahuman'. That's part of the crunch of TRACES.

What I've been talking about isn't that; instead, I'm just giving my fluff opinion that TRACES and SEIES are in general 'bringing animals up to human levels'. I'm also saying, as a corollary, that they therefore shouldn't work on sapients already equal to or better than metahumans (dragons). They wouldn't use SEIES, they'd use TacNet. They wouldn't benefit from TRACES, because they already have a sapient understanding of combat and visual recognition, etc. That's all.

When you made your counterargument about the *crunch* of TRACES, we both misunderstood it to be referring to my fluff comments.

Ahh. I knew it had to be something like that.

I was already mentally acknowledging (... I'm not usually that bad with spelling) the fact that they would not be gaining the bonuses for operating at human level, as by the virtue of being a dragon they're already operating above human level. I was mentioning those two pieces of 'ware because of the additional benefits conferred by the 'ware - namely, the +2 Melee Combat Tests, +2 Dodge Tests, and +2 Surprise Tests, all of which would theoretically stack with TacNet bonuses.

Kind of got that impression too, from the mention of Obsidimen!

It is weirdly plausible though. Who made the joke and when?

Catalyst Game labs team, April 2nd, 2008, I think.

Edit: Yeah, It was 2008

Uhh, don't know who it was but it was the 2009 April Fool's Day, IIRC. Was posted on these boards, IIRC...

I thought the 2009 joke was the William Gibson thing? Or was that this year's.

This years. They only do april fools jokes every other year.

2010 Was gibson
2008 was Dragons
2006 Was Cyberpirates CTCMB game
2005 was 5th Edition

OP--The Cybertooth was written before Running Wild came along to write the rules for Biodrones. I believe the DV should actually be 8. (Str/2 +3)

Ah right, thanks for that. Pleasingly I needed to make a decision by tonight and that's exactly what I was going for.