one of our Users (Loki) made this and asked me to show it to you

http://shadowhelix.de/images/2/2e/Animatio...Nordamerika.gif

with a showcasedance
Medicineman

Wow that's nice... Thank him for me.

This is VERY nice. I just wish I could read it XD

/cheer!!! thats is sweet. I wish i could read it. But Awesome as is!!!

New & improved and now in English

http://shadowhelix.de/images/0/08/Animatio...ka_englisch.gif

with an english Dance
Medicineman

Totally Sweet Gonna show it at our next game.
Many thanks for the time and effort!

Very nice!

I never before realized just how little of Canada remained after the GGD. Very nice material!

Danke!

This is really cool! I wish this could have been included somehow with the 6WA.

Yes, I know it's an animation.

FLIP BOOK STYLE!

Nice. I'm planning on translating this & posting the frames for my group on our wiki's timeline.

Thank you! -- N

Uhm, you did see the English and the German link yes? O.o

Interesting. I guess I'd never really thought about how little of Canada there was in the UCAS. Watching that graph, I find it hard to believe that the United States gave up its distinctive name and flag to add a section of land smaller than some states. Seems more realistic the USA would have accepted Canadian provinces as states. I think this was some kind of marketing thing for FASA to try and not alienate Canadian gamers, lol.

Hmm. And poor Califonia. Talk about getting the short end of the stick. San Diego taken over by Mexicans, ripped apart by The Big One, then losing what was left of the good parts of California to the NAN.

Say, EVER heard of AR?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RuZY1NfJ3k

Pretty good. I must say I've never paid much attention to all these things previously, because the fluff is too much to read . So it's nice to see it like that.

It's just a BIT too quick, though. If you're following the text sometimes you can't see some of the smaller map changes. A click-through version would be nice.

True, that made showing and explaining it to the players a bit ungainly.

If it was a ploy to keep the Canadian fans happy, then it mirrored what could be the (in story) reason for the accommodation of name and symbols (both trivial to be honest).

The part of Canada shown to be absorbed into the UCAS holds on the order of 15 to 20 million people, not counting migrants from other parts of Canada lost to the NAN, and the Southern Ontario portion is home to approximately 40% of the manufacturing in all of Canada. So there's a lot of economic incentive to entice this block to join. Incentive would be necessary because, political hype and SR fluff aside, the only province in Canada which could actually afford to go it alone is Ontario. On top of population and manufacturing/agriculture base, in Canada there is an economic tool to share wealth among the provinces to equalize things like infrastructure, health care and education. Aside from the recessive times resulting from the recent blip in the global economy, Ontario puts on the order of 20 billion dollars into that system annually to help most of the rest of Canada. Quebec receives on the order of 6 billion a year. Oddly enough, a lot of the rest of Canada has cheaper education, health care, day care etc. than Ontario. Ontarians wonder how that happened.

Imagine what your state could do with 20 billion extra every year. Were I a political leader of Ontario at the time of unification, I would have told the U.S. to go stick their flag and country name. And stuck around for extra terms as the voters rewarded me for helping the Republic of Ontario grow filthy rich.

From what I saw of that map, there was less than half of Ontario left. It's an interesting thought to see if an independent Ontario could survive, but it loses its northern half, which is the rural half with much of the natural resources aside from the hydroelectric power of the Niagara river. You can call right now an "aside" and a "blip" but imagine the "blip" caused by the shake-up of the world's economy, and the extreme trauma to the American economy which, like it or not, is the anchor of the Ontario economy because of the fact that it is based primarily on the motor vehicle industry and ever increasing urbanization that is diminishing its agricultural industry. Ontario is essentially the Canadian Michigan, and by 2050+ probably owned mostly by Ares and Japanese corps, lol.

I dunno. I understand your nationalism, but I just don't see how Ontario survives independently losing many of its international markets, and cut off from everything that makes Canada rich. Joining the United States gives it access to the intact infrastructure of the heartland of the US. If you look at the division of the NAN and the USA, the USA still kept most of the biggest agricultural states, and most of the biggest manufacturing states. Canada on the other hand lost almost all of its natural resources and only retained production facilities largely owned by American and Japanese corporations. I'm just saying that if 5% of Canada's land mass was merging with 50% of America's, I just don't see the UCAS thing. Ottawa at that point probably would see no real viable options.

Understandably what the writers at FASA wanted to do was balkanize North America. Even the CAS split doesn't make much sense anymore. Most of the issues that divided Northerners and Southerners are long gone, and only the most ignorant of Southerners would actually favor the split. Certainly nobody in the government or industry. But the shake-ups make for a more diverse and "alien" future for the players.

Many SR timeline nations survive just fine with major multinational corporate ownership. The large, northern chunk of Ontario is boreal forest, most of it unsuitable for agriculture. The prime agricultural land is in the south, by the Great Lakes. There is a fair bit of mining and forestry in the north. Of course Ontario's industrial output depends heavily on the American market (decreasingly so in the last few years), but what reason would there be for that market connection to change? The poorer market in the US indeed would be an issue, but it doesn't collapse. Neither would that of Ontario. The robustness of the Canadian economy in general and that of Ontario in particular shows already today. And there still is that buffer of 20 billion dollars a year. Coincidentally, that value is roughly equal to the "Transportation Equipment" sector of the Ontario to which you allude, which makes up just over 19% of the province's GDP. All of this is in the context of the fluff of SR which shows only Québec going it alone. That's not rational.
Nationalism without Rationalism is a deadly trap (see above). I honestly try to avoid that. If my arguments don't make sense and are countered logically and with facts, it behooves me to change my opinion.

It already has that.
Or look at it another way, 35% to 40% of the population of Canada, running about 40% of the industry maintains its close and cordial relationship with 50% of the US population.

I'll buy that one!

Yeah, but Canada's population is less than that of California alone. The greater New York metropolitan area has something like 20 million by itself.

The NAN states (Colorado (Minus Denver Metro), Wyoming, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, Idaho, Oregon, Washington (minus Seattle metro, Hawaii(not NAN, but gone), Alaska, and Montana with parts of the Dakotas and western Nebraska) would be roughly 8-9% of the US population. California, Texas, New York, and Florida were still all part of the USA at that point. Those four states, not adjusted for time line attrition, have almost 100 million people living in them right now according to Census estimates.

I mean, I'm not trying to demean Canada in any way. It's just that even if we're talking most of the 11 million Ontarians(?), and another million or so from the slivers of Manitoba and Saskatchewan, and Newfoundland, plus say a million and a half from Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, it's still less people than Florida. There would still be around 275 million Americans left in what remained of the USA.

the crazy ass sr3 writers put the population of Algonkuin Manitou Council at 100 million

I think they were on high crack.

The population thing is weird. VITAS I killed 1/4 the world pop? VITAS II did it again?

that's a huge amount of depopulation.

That's why I figure the modern figures are probably a good baseline, if a little high. You counteract the natural increases in population with all of the timeline's decreases (VITAS, multiple wars, social upheaval, infrastructure upheaval etc). Shadowrun isn't quite apocalyptic, but it seems to have tried to get close, lol. Sometimes it makes you wonder if all the technological innovations the game describes would even be possible with all the world shattering changes the timeline would have caused. Crash 2.0 is one of the worst offenders. That could very well have resulted in complete anarchy, and certainly in global economic meltdown

I don't get it. Native American Nations volume II, page 61 (SR2), reads 22,548,000 inhabitants in the Algonkin-Manitou, Shadows of North America, page 20 (SR3), reads 5,066,000.

I think it's in Anarchists book of North America..

I might also be miss-remembering and it was the 22.5 Million number which irritated me.
Especially given that places like Quebec have significantly less people than that.

Wow. What happened with the missing 17 millions?

someone started getting a clue?
Algonquin Manitou should probably be 1-2 million tops.

Native Americans: Unchecked, they breed like bunnies.

in an ice tundra with only the most basic of natural resources?

Nah, just a lucky shot.

Probably not, but it's the only possible explanation, haha.

Well aside from the probably explanation that the guys who wrote some of the books back in the day had no clue what they were talking about.

If I doubt VISTAs did it? It's like a wizard for populations.

I think it's more that some of the writers had no clue what they were talking about

Shadows of North America puts the population of the UCAS at 172 million. I'm assuming various plagues etc. are figured into this. I don't see how the relative sizes of the U.S.A. and the province of Ontario would figure into a need for political integration if the economic integration as it stands would continue. Now, if an isolationist movement took hold in the U.S.A, not that that would ever happen , then maybe an isolated Ontario would look for some way to overcome the barriers. In the midst of all that NAN separation though, a neighbour who says, "We'll stand by you guys just like we have for 150 years, and keep sending you the machines and the electricity you need," may just talk its way around those barriers.

Nor am I trying to build up Canada in any way. Just, living in the middle of the region in question, the logic of the SR timeline and history escapes me. I don't think I'm alone in that.

Well, the second largest oil field in the world, the largest reserves of potash, major diamond and gold mining, forestry... and British Columbia's marijuana crop. Not so basic.

EDIT: I forgot rare earths currently deemed in critical supply for industry such as electronics and other manufacturing, though these are also in the Sudbury, Ontario region.

Except that supposedly the Algonkuin and the Manitou (especially) are pretty severely back to nature types.

and the AMC don't have any of British Columbia, I thought that was the Salish.

OK, the original post/reply didn't specify which NAN.

Remember that that figure splits the CAS and UCAS and CFS. When Canada and the USA combined, it was before those splits. Adding the 105 million of the CAS and the 18 million of the CFS in there, you come out to about 295 million minus the 15 million or so Canadians.

Actually, it seems like my guess of the populations being more or less equivalent to 2009's census estimates was pretty close. Very interesting.

Do any of you have any idea how cold it gets up there? Think about it for a second, you're way up north and there's a few feet of snow outside. What are you going to do?

Cold winters generally= babies.

OK, I see what I missed there about the CAS. But if the transition from current 310 million US citizens dropped to 295 million, why do you say the 34 million Canadians dropped to 15 million. That's over 50% for Canada and about 5% for the US. No way disease would cause that, especially with universal health care in Canada.

Relative indigenous populations are 3% Canada, 1% US, so that could account for some, but not a lot. It's also possible that the significant proportion of non-NA peoples in the large areas of Canada lost to the NAN may have stayed in large part, but I thought that generally that was not the case for NAN.

Vitas killed 25% of the world population.

You could make arguments that it hits 3rd world harder than 1s world, etc.. but to be simple it's probably easier to have it go universally across the board.

I would expect the US population to drop by 70 million or so, and the Canadian pop to drop by 25% as well.

The people involved in the writing of Shadows of North America considered the number from NAN SB were silly and could not be adequately explained with the existing background. They opted for a clear discontinuity here. I believe there is somewhere a line saying NAN used to produce falsified statistics because of some STC vote weighted by population, but that's a wink rather than a real explanation (OPEC members have been doing this for years with their oil reserve). SoNA also features tribal affiliation rate quite low in some place ("only 52% in the Algonkian-Manitou for instance), suggesting a larger anglo population than previouly suggested.

The Algonkian is also one of the NAN, along with the Salish, that opened its border to metahumans (hence the "Manitou" and "Shidhe" addition). 30% of Algonkian-Manitou population are elves, while the North American average is 10%. So there could be as much as 1 million immigrant elves.

Well, I was basing my numbers on the population figures for Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland since those are the portions of Canada that became part of the UCAS versus the populations of the states that are part of the remainder of the USA.

Obviously the numbers fudge with emigration from NAN territory to avoid racist backlash from their new masters, and the number of Natives who might immigrate to the NAN from outside, but you also reduce the 8 million from Quebec out of that number. I figured the emigration/immigration numbers would be commensurate enough to not change the overall percentages. Besides, I was trying to limit the scope of my theoretical mathematics, lol.

If a Million Elves is 30% that would put the Overall population at roughly 3.5 million. I'm okay with that.

The only NAN countries with significant populations should probably be the Pueblo, maybe the Sioux.

AMC and Salish-Shidhe,a nd Tsimshian Protectorate shoudl be fairly similar.
With the Aleut coming in a nice dead last with maybe 100k

I was talking about 1 million immigrant elves.

30% of 5 millions means 1.5 million elves. I considered the 10% average in North America to be a good estimation of the natural rate. That would suggest Algonkin-Manitou population prior to the metahuman welcome policy was 4 millions, with the 10% "natural" rate for elves, and 1 million more immigrating atop of that.

The Pueblo had the opportunity to integrate a fairly large latino population (which the NAN were allowed to count as "native"). The Ute also allowed the mormons to stay in the Salt Lake area (actually, the figures given in SoNA either don't count the mormons or mean Las Vegas is half empty). Add Los Angeles, and the Pueblo should start worrying about their tribal identity.

I made two more animations after the one covering North America:

Middle America: http://shadowhelix.de/Datei:Animation_Terr...ka_englisch.gif
South America: http://shadowhelix.de/Datei:Animation_Terr...ka_englisch.gif

To German-speaking users who have not yet seen these there is also a German version:

Nordamerika: http://shadowhelix.de/Datei:Animation_Terr...Nordamerika.gif
Mittelamerika: http://shadowhelix.de/Datei:Animation_Terr...ttelamerika.gif
Südamerika: http://shadowhelix.de/Datei:Animation_Terr..._Südamerika.gif

To French-speaking users you might want to check out the version translated into French (translation by Archaos from the ShadowWiki, check it out if you don't know it yet):

Amérique du nord: http://shadowrun.fr/wiki/Amérique_du_nord_animation
Amérique du sud: http://shadowrun.fr/wiki/Amérique_du_sud_animation
Amérique centrale: http://shadowrun.fr/wiki/Amérique_centrale_animation

Some notes on this. You should be aware that the animations are not 100% canon. For one there are gaps in the "historical" account of the Sixth World. One example for North America, it is unclear at which point Aztlan obtained control over the southernmost parts of Arizona and New Mexico but since they were never at war with the NAN the only time such an event seems to fit in is with the Treaty of Denver. I'm not aware of any source stating this though, to the contrary I believe there was some mention of how the only thing Aztlan got out of the treaty was their small sector in Denver. Another example for South America: Information is especially hard to come by so I used dates from the SoLA-drafts for the annexation of Suriname and Guyana by Amazonia. SoLA obviously never made it to canonhood though I doubt many here would object to the material's inclusion. A third example for Middle America the Almanac does not mention the date for Aztlan's annexation of Costa Rica so I set it to 2047 which I think is a likely candidate based on the old Aztlan sourcebook where the time frame for the expansion into Central America is said to be 2045-2047. Those are the major ones, there might be others.

And then I have taken some liberties with the map of North America. My border between TP:A and Athabaska follows the polar circle as shown in Target: Wasteland and meant to though not properly executed in Shadows of North America. My border between UCAS and CAS Missouri is slightly different (this graphic illustrates the reasoning behind it). And I have included North Virginia which so far has been missing from all North America maps (another graphic). The last 2072 North America map and the world map from the Almanac don't include any of these changes.

I sure hope you know that you are AWESOME, lokii

Well,I told him that at least once

hokaHey
Medicineman

Interesting. I never reliesed just how much land Amazonia claimed. It's actually bigger then Atzlan.

Yes, but most of that land is Awakened Jungle of DOOOM