I'm envisioning the following scenario:

• Team is chased by baddies
• Mage drops physical barrier directly in front of enemy car
• Kaboom

Any reason why this won't work?

The GM allows the driver a crash test to avoid the barrier, or the vehicle goes through the barrier like a car through a wooden house?

Really with 6 hits you get a barrier that has a consistency of a chain link fence. Now while the ramming rules are a bit silly, as a GM I would just say that the car goes through the barrier, no or little damage taken. Maybe forcing a crash test.

Depends on the barrier. Force 6 is only as good as Chain Link.

The Ramming rules *are* crap, though. You could rule that the vehicle takes full crash/ram damage if it hits *anything*, even a paper wall.

I agree. Has to be a insanely tough barrier to stop or even damage most vehicles. Also one may be able to avoid it if not timed perfectly.

But, you could probably cause a Crash Test, either by making them ram through, or by creating a ramp or something.

So, if you were to overcast at F12, then this would probably work... then again, you'd be resisting 9P drain. (And you'd need Magic 6.) And a F12 Powerbolt/Powerball would probably work just as well.

Thanks for the input.

AAAND you have to get enough hits. You can cast it at force 20... with one hit it still is only a barrier rating 1 (glass)

How *do* you guys like to resolve Ramming/Barrier interactions? AFAIK, the rules don't really cover it. Normal Ramming damage as the DV vs. Barrier (i.e., same as Melee)? So breaking through a lightpost or chainlink fence with a sedan going full speed is 20 ramming (plus net hits?) vs. 16 double-armor; 15 boxes of damage against Structure 7, that's two square meters (seems like plenty, but would 1 square meter have been big enough?). The sedan clears the barrier, but takes 10 DV from the ram (5 boxes of damage). :/ That might be too much damage for chain link, but that's probably more the fault of chain link's too-high barrier rating.

However, I think Mythbusters did an episode where they looked at what happens to a car when it goes through a chainlink fence. Initially it looked like it would work after hitting the fence but actually it caused such damage that that simply wasn't the truth. What cars will be like in the future however, I'm not sure.

Also, even if the car could still move, it would definitely be slowed down allowing the pursuing car a chance to catch up some lost ground, perhaps even getting close enough to effectively end it by being in range of tossing a grenade in the window. For a less lethal method, tear gas?

Hm good question... let us think about that:

In the real world (yeah,yeah i know) a normal car would have little problem breaking through 10 cm standard structural material (12 armor / 11 structure), but would likely sustain heavy damage, maybe to the point of full damage.

A standard car has maybe 10 body and 6 armor.

On the other hand, a small tank or APV (16 body, 14-20 armor) should break the same barrier while sustaining no damage at all.
And more massive targets should be impenetrable to all kinds of vehicles (save kamikaze- attacks at ultra-high speeds)

So let's see standard ramming at "I want to live" speeds (under 100) does normaly double damage, which is enough. But breaking through at under 60 should be possible too: so 10 damage. That is too low. I assume counting a ramming vehicle as armor piercing is maybe appropiate. Maybe applying a DV modifier (double... like explosives)

So what damage should WE get? Half of it as ramming vehicle of course. BUT if we break through something not having enough mass, we shouldn't get any damage. Lets us say: If destroyed structure < Our body + Armor, we get no damage. IF it was higher, we can assume we rammed something which had enough mass to slow us down (and damage our vehicle). We get say... Half of standard DV (not doubled). That would be in most cases either 5 or 10 damage, resisted. Maybe too low.

Hm, have to calculate and try a bit... will be back.

What happens when a "tank" moving at 100 mph hits a "chain link fence" (or weaker) magical barrier:

Obviously the tank takes very little damage, despite its high body and high speed, so the normal ramming rules Make No Sense.

What we do know that an object A with mass a hitting stationary, immovable object B at velocity V has a force denoted as such:

F = 1/2 aV^2 (source)

Thus we know the force imparted: F.

F is typically what is used in ShadowRun as the damage against the rammed target (stationary object B). We also know that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The higher mass object imparts more momentum to the lower mass object than the lower mass object imparts to the higher mass object. Therefore:

F = 1/2bV^2!

Here's an example of what this might look like.

So in dealing with low mass physical barriers the damage imparted by them to the moving vehicle should be based on its Structure rating. A glass wall (Structure 1) won't stop a car driving through it at all (it shatters!). A structure rating of 6 might slow it down (chain link fence?) and a structure of 12 (10cm of concrete) should stop it in its tracks.

This can even be extended to crashes between two vehicles, rather than the rammer taking damage equal to its body, it takes damage equal to the target's body. And this stops nonsense like the Murdercycle taking out semi-trucks without damage.

This is why you don't make a simple roadblock.

You make a ramp such that it causes the vehicle to vault off the freeway or a least flip over. Or maybe an angled wall forcing them off the road into an actual barrier.






-k

Thought about that too. Now we have to have a nice, fast way to convert Armor/Structure ratings into a body score, to determine the damage dealt by ramming that stuff. Maybe ignore armor (it already account to being breakable or not) and say Structre/2 = body for ramming? Makes a thin brick wall ~5, a normal one 10. and a bunker pretty much unbreakable (Body 340). Of course it should be capped (body 320 is of course ridiculous). Maybe on Structure(10cm) *2 max?

EDIT: Ach, forget it all... it doesn't work. Have to find another way... hm...

That is not the problem think about a physical barrier cast about about chest high as a motercycle rider hits it at 70 miles an hour.
Adrian Taylor

I'm seeing a motorcycle that drives right through it. The barrier doesn't actually effect the motorcycle enough to stop and throw the rider.

He means the barrier hits only the rider.

Depends on the GM. The rules don't strictly cover that kind of thing. Funny, though.

Hmmmmmm, I think I'll have to work on a spell that makes said barrier wire-thin.

I think the less monowire in the game, the better.

Oh damn a fly!

Grabs pink spray paint. Your views need converting.

Agreed. Nothing wrong with monowire. Unless of course one end is tide to a lamp post and the the other end is tied to something like a garbage can that has been filled with rocks and then welded shut with the wire taught across a road to stop a fast moving transport. Still never allowed to use that trick again, grumble grumble grumble.

Oh monowire how you are awesomely handy. The only issue is the price and even then its not too bad.

Monowire is another way to solve problems. Along with duct tape and explosives.

Add all three and an ork and you're fucked ;P

So we need a ork packing a grenade launching monowire weed-whacker held together with duct tape and dreams.... HELLO NEW CHARACTER CONCEPT!

Sure it was manly a refrance to the 40k Orks and there magic tech of what we believe works and the belief duct tape fix everything and or improve it. It's commonly joked that Orks with duct tape will own all.

Well if they are 40K then it needs to be a red weed whacker, so it can spin faster.

no, a normal weed whacker would work... but it has to be on a motorcycle thats red.

Assuming a rating 6 barrier (not an easy assumption since that means on average 18 dice)
Cars would blow through it at any speeds past 60, most bikes would explode on a rating 6 physical barrier.

Speeds 61-200 you do bodyx2 damage, less than that and you do body damage or less.

The Harley scorpion and similar heavy bikes have 8 body, most bikes though have a 6 body and would have to crack a 200 speed in order to burst through.

And while the chain link fence is one of the examples of a rating 6 barrier I think many people are underestimating rating 6 structure 6. It also includes a hard wood barrier, how do you think your car would look after driving through a solid oak wall, or plowing into a light post?

Having driven through a chain link fence, I can say the chain link part was perfectly fine, the little metal bands that attached it to the metal supports snapped really easy though. You hit something that hard that isn't attached to metal supports by tiny metal bands and it will hurt.

A crash test would be in order, and maybe at a steep penalty if the driver was totally unaware of the barrier before plowing through it.

I just thought of something, and looked at mythbusters. First of all, the vehicle would go through a chain link fence with little problems, except in their example, the airbags deployed... if this occurred the driver would likely be stunned especially if he had no idea that there would be a collision. Also, how thick is the magical barrier? That would also have something to do with it. if the barrier is only a few millimeters thick then it would exhibit the same conditions as a chain link fence. However, if you can make a magical barrier 2 feet thick at force 6, suddenly it would be much more difficult to go through i would imagine. Think about hitting a sheet of paper that is suspended in the air with a hammer... if there's nothing behind that sheet, decent chance the hammer will go through. However if you replace that sheet of paper with a ream or so, the hammer (I would imagine, no real-world experience here) would bounce off maybe making a dent in the surface.

Magical barriers have no listed thickness.

Mainly because while most materials have a structure related to how thick they are, a magical barrier does not. So it would be equivalent to 60 cm of glass or 10 cm of wood or 3 cm of concrete. How thick the magical barrier is has no relevance.

gotcha, i really don't know a thing about the magic in game so thats why i asked. well, my point about the airbag still stands

I'm pretty sure that every 'runner in Seattle knows to disable airbags on their vehicles. Otherwise, you wouldn't make it ten meters in a car chase, since they'd deploy at the first little bump.

Of course, you're extra screwed if you crash... but it's damned if you do, double damned if you don't.

If the bump is 'little' enough to deploy the airbags, it was big enough to seriously injure you.

Depends on how paranoid people have gotten. A trashcan can set them off. And why aren't we using Demolition Man cannoli cars yet?

That can't be right. Getting hit by the airbag itself hurts, so it wouldn't (when working properly) deploy for anything *less* dangerous than itself. While we are making 'gentler' airbags even today, it still seems fair to assume this. They're also expensive, so consumers wouldn't stand for frivolous deployment, right? So, either they deploy reasonably in 2070, or they're so advanced (gentle and cheap) that they can afford to be unreasonable.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought 15 mph was enough to set off an airbag.

It's true, against a solid barrier dead-on (higher against softer things like other cars, and at angles). I wouldn't call that 'gentle'.

Well it's all relative, I suppose. Idling into a street lamp or a trashcan at seventy, both seem too sensitive to me. But then again, if Burn Notice has taught us anything, "Airbags are great for surviving crashes but they make some evasive maneuvers tough. Gone are the days when you could run through a stand of trees without a face full of nylon" and "Airbags save a lot of lives. But they also put you out long enough to get your hands cable-tied to the steering wheel". And yes, I believe Michael's word is as good as gold, haha.

Well, it all depends. A trash can (plastic, filled with soft junk) isn't a 'solid barrier' in real-world terms, so I honestly don't know if it would trigger them. A street lamp might well be, and if I hit one at 15+ mph, I think I'd want the airbags.

Great Burn Notice point, though. Obviously, there's some wiggle room, but don't forget: runners in 2070 have way more options for their airbags than 'on or off', right? And they can change instantly, wirelessly. That might be a fun hack *against* someone, too.

So the ram idea is a kewl concept! It would have to be strong enough to hold the weight though correct? If that's the case a Glass strength ratting barrier wouldn't really work would it?

I like the idea of having them make a crash test. But what strength would the barrier be if they are forced to do so? I would impose a negative pool on the crash test.

Barrier 1-2 no penalty or test needed.
3-4 Test required
5-6 test with -1 dice
7-8 test with -2 dice

Or is this type of thing already included somewhere?

RAW, any barrier can force a Crash Test, I think, especially if it's opaque. Granted, the RAW isn't necessarily the best thing, though.

Thats smashing your face in to the wheel speeds and not a light bump. At least the force of a soild punch the the skull.



As for the forceing a crash test it will force one. It will also by raw count as a ram and by RAW they can be deadly. As for penitalys having a wall pop up right infrount of your car I doubt most if any one could doge it. Think those reactive anti car bomb tech and how hard it is for those to be missed now this one deploys faster taking no time before your facing it and you can't see it before it happens as it doesn't exist yet. By RAW this could be deadly to any one in the car if there safty stuff is turned off and even then it coudl still do a lot of harm if a higher force.