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Godwyn
Distinctive style is reasonably 5pts because there are a couple factors that have to come together for it to matter. The most prominent being someone has to be looking for you. If you pick your runs carefully, this is not that likely to be happening. Avoid SK and Aztech. Often overlooked is the fact that most Corps do not bother hunting shadowrunners. Its generally not worth the time if they have already dumped what they stole, or otherwise completed their mission.

Another is the benefit of extraterritoriality that is often forgotten. KE, or whoever is in Seattle now, are not pounding the ground searching high and low for you faking a gun license. Any crime done on AAA corps territory, by law, was not within their jurisdiction, they can do nothing even if they catch you.

Heck, if someone does an effective enough job on a corps, they may just look them up to hire them. This is something I feel is often lost. And is the entire process behind Pink Mohawks. Corps view runners as tools. Most people don't waste much effort getting mad at the tool used against them, they also don't mind using that tool against their enemy if the chance comes up either. Corps recognize that usually runners are just doing a job, taking extra time and money to swat at them isn't worth it, someone else will just replace them.

That being said, if the character disrupts the game, something does have to be done. I always prefer the speak with the player first approach. If that doesn't work, then no other remedy will work either because there is always going to be a serious disconnect between that player and the GM.

Kruger
Yeah, the corps aren't typically going to hunt you for too long unless you caused some kind of grievous damage. Though, I think it is unwise to assume that the corps have a short memory, because they may not. While every corp understands the nature of the game and the fact that they use runners, breaking into a secure enough facility or otherwise learning "too much" just may well land you on the death list. After all, runners sell information too. What did you think paydata was? Who do you think your contacts are, or who they are talking to? Besides, runners really aren't that expensive or difficult to track down unless they're really, really hiding.
Saint Sithney
Problem here is that it's a syndicate game. Button men want to be recognized as button men, but not as "Cannoli-o the Mustache Wizard, who murdered those guys on 82nd."
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Oct 6 2010, 06:01 AM) *
Problem here is that it's a syndicate game. Button men want to be recognized as button men, but not as "Cannoli-o the Mustache Wizard, who murdered those guys on 82nd."


"Abracholesterol!"

*fireball*
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Oct 5 2010, 09:23 PM) *
Because I have the text in front of me and the ability to read English.



Again it is a 5 to 35 point disadvantage. Why do you seem to want to treat all levels of this disadvantage the same. When it comes into play it has the mechanical disadvantage you quote, but it does not always come into play. The area you seem to be not comprehending is it is not just a 5 point disadvantage you can take 7 times, it is a 5-35 point disadvantage you can take multiple times. That is why it is 5 to 35 points and not just 5 points with the note at the bottom that it can be taken multiple times, like say incompetent. So you can have a 35 point distinctive advantage that gives +3 to the find me check, or 2 5 point ones that when both are noticed give a +6 disadvantage. The difference is obviously there for the GM to adjudicate.


QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Oct 5 2010, 09:23 PM) *
As it is worded, it is god-awful. Also it makes no sense. Up to 35BP with only the first 10BP having any effect. There's a reason there's no errata for that book. It's just one mistake after another.

By all means, do house rule it if you choose to use it. I do.
I also wouldn't allow it in a serious game, because it's a gag option and doesn't belong there.


And by the way if you took it 3 times yes only the first two come into effect if all three are noticed, but it gives you 3 ways to be noticed. You can't do legwork about the guys accent, if he never spoke around you for example. More ways to be noticed is worth extra points, so it does make sense. Obviously though at the 35 point level it is the type of thing that stands out virtually no matter what kind of actions the player is taking. So again feel free to house rule it to worse than it is by having it always apply, just make sure those uncommon allergies are always in the air 24/7 for the people who took allergy at 5 points. And even if you make it happen all the time, how often are the corps all the time doing legwork, actual legwork not matrix or astral searches for the players. Are the players really causing that much damage?
Yerameyahu
Psh. Matrix *is* legwork. smile.gif Everything everywhere is recorded, in every sense you have.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 6 2010, 02:20 PM) *
Psh. Matrix *is* legwork. smile.gif Everything everywhere is recorded, in every sense you have.


I'd normally agree with you and I think it is an odd omission, but the quality specifically excludes matrix and astral searches. Now legwork via the matrix, by I don't know emailing a contact or asking around on looking to kill a runner forums, might work.
Yerameyahu
I agree, the quality is clear on that. As you say, the distinction is between searching databases and searching what people actually saw/etc.
TeslaNick
If I might suggest -- if he happened to be in a public jurisdiction, why not have him taken in for trial? The disruptive runner's sitting in a jail cell, awaiting trial, and some sort of shadowy organization takes an interest in your crew and sees this as a way to build up some leverage for a free job. They set you up with a shady lawyer, they bribe the witnesses, get a few paid"experts", and your character gets off on some technicality.

But let him sweat a little bit -- going to a supermax prison is as good as character death, but it's a lingering, suspenseful sort of death.

If you've seen The Wire (and you should if you haven't), play it like any of the courtroom scenes where one of Barkesdale's crew is on trial.
Smokeskin
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 4 2010, 09:38 AM) *
A realistic, mirror-shade style campaign with no ice cold spies. What? I am getting contradictory vibes from your post. You want a mirror shade style campaign. You prefer not to have ice cold spies but either up and coming amateurs or professionals are fucked up somehow. Eh?

From what I see, you got what you asked for.


Maybe we're thinking about something different when we say "ice cold spy". I think of a char with all the right skills and no personality, the guy that spends all his time training, all his money on ware, not a shred of personal conviction he would ever act on that could be a story hook. It is totally boring.

A realistic setting has to be mirror shades. Those are the terms any criminal has to operate under. That doesn't mean criminals are going to be ice cold spies - if they're that good and that pro, why are they shadowrunners rather than actual spies or special forces soldiers? There pretty much has to be something, greed, addiction, a violent streak, authority issues, that got them into shadowrunning.

On the other hand, people who are too flawed to operate as criminals, because they would get caught or killed or no one wants to work with them, that won't work either, will it?

Shadowrunners have to be fucked up enough to choose that life, but sane and professional enough to function. Expecting most runners to fall in that category is entirely reasonable. And for the characters to be interesting, for the player, group and GM, that really does make the whole experience more enjoyable.
Smokeskin
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Oct 5 2010, 02:35 AM) *
Again, these are things that, if they are bad, you need to explain why they are bad.

Big beards and big hats barely qualify as two-levels of distinctive style with fashion in SR being described the way it is. I don't see how having an ethnicity/nationality is innately 'weird' either. And what is wrong with shotguns or with knives?

Then again, I do agree that an obese guy with a big hat and a big beard carrying around a shotgun filled with knives wherever he goes and talking in an outrageous Swede accent could be pretty disruptive. But it really depends how the elements come togehter.


It really all comes together in the most disruptive way.

QUOTE (Neurosis @ Oct 5 2010, 02:35 AM) *
Oh, and if not for the innate "spells are painfully obvious" problems with the SR rules, casting Analyze Truth on a Johnson (especially one who is obviously non/semi-pro and is without magical backup/protection) is a pretty cool idea. Additionally, there are plenty of ways for a player to camouflage a 'touch'
in a social context. I would even allow a player who came up with a clever enough method to make the touch without any dice rolls.


He made a point of it being awkward, the way he placed his hand at the Johnson and looked at him funny.

Part of the char description is that he unsettles people with his behavior.
Smokeskin
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Oct 6 2010, 01:36 AM) *
It was a 5 point disadvantage taken twice. You may like to make it the end of days disadvantage but it should be no worse than taking hated by fire spirits. All distinctive style should really mean is he is a bit easier to identify and track down.

Given that he went with 2 5 point hits to distinctive style instead of 1 35 point one it should be treated differently than a massive disadvantage. It should hurt him as much as any addiction quality for example, that isn't exactly professional, but I somehow doubt that is made into an end of days disadvantage in many campaigns.

A heavily bearded obese guy with an accent may stand out, but so what. I am fairly sure other players have unprofessional disadvantages as well, but they don't get crippled for it even though they got the same amount of points.


I agree. But with distinctive style, and it's very specific mechanics, there are certain things you shouldn't do. He could certainly take actions that would circumvent his negative qualities, and with that it would be a disadvantage but the effort to overcome it is reasonable compared to the BPs gained. But if he wants to flaunt his distinctive styles openly in the middle of the street while using making to take down a target that they expect to probably have to kill down the line, then he's going to end up paying dearly for those 10 BPs.
Smokeskin
We've had a lot of difficulty scheduling the next session, but in the meantime, I've explained the mechanics of Distinctive Style, and that Joe Average Cop that normally rolls 6 dice to track down criminals will be rolling 12 dice like the best cop in Seattle, and if an actually good cop comes on the case, they're really hosed. The ex-cop char thinks that it is probably best that no police investigation is started at all.

The run would be significantly easier if they killed the guy (he's a family man with kids, it was designed as a moral challenge actually), which they now have to deal with. The guy is criminally involved and can't go to the cops (an "easy first run" feature), so he won't report the assault, though the runners might be sweating a bit over that anyway.

So it ends up a scare, some inconvenience, and hopefully things will improve in the future. Maybe the char becomes more careful, or he dies or goes to jail, the other runners leave him, or the player gets tired of playing him.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Nov 12 2010, 06:03 AM) *
I agree. But with distinctive style, and it's very specific mechanics, there are certain things you shouldn't do. He could certainly take actions that would circumvent his negative qualities, and with that it would be a disadvantage but the effort to overcome it is reasonable compared to the BPs gained. But if he wants to flaunt his distinctive styles openly in the middle of the street while using making to take down a target that they expect to probably have to kill down the line, then he's going to end up paying dearly for those 10 BPs.



Totally. If I have a sunlight allergy going to the beach in a speedo is probably a bad idea. There are ways to minimize flaws and ways to make them worse. If he is making them worse then it will come up more often and the cops will likely find him if they are putting any time into the investigation.
Jizmack
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Nov 12 2010, 02:21 AM) *
So it ends up a scare, some inconvenience, and hopefully things will improve in the future. Maybe the char becomes more careful, or he dies or goes to jail, the other runners leave him, or the player gets tired of playing him.

In my experience as a GM (and also a player), the best remedy for a problematic character is to overstress and even exaggerate the problems directly onto the other non-problematic characters. In short, forcing the other players to put him in his place, as oppose to an NPC. Characters in the game getting pissed at a player is one thing, but having the other players get pissed at a player will either make the problematic character leave the game or change.

Disclaimer – doing this may backfire and end the game (or even encumber friendships), so proceed with extreme caution!!!! smile.gif


CanadianWolverine
Man, I feel like this is being looked at the wrong way for some reason after reading through the whole thread to this point. Why isn't such a awkward freak of a character being looked as an asset for the team? What, no one has ever had him be Mr. Obvious either as a distraction or bait while the rest of the professionals do the real job they didn't tell him about, heck, that they didn't even tell him about the meet with the Mr. Johnson while they were haggling for jobs? Hell, its even a kind of safety net, if any kind heat comes down on the team for a job, its going to find him first, that could be a wonderful advantage - always assume someone is trailing the freak, then you can track the people tracking him! Oh man, the amount of fun you could have...

I just think pros love pink mohawks, they help them live longer by taking all the flak while they go unnoticed. And if your whole team is pro and you haven't hired a pink mohawk team to run a distraction run (you don't tell them this of course) to lead your target(s) on a wild goose chase, you obviously need to read Sun Tzu or something.

Look, I'll tell you what is even more annoying, when you have a team of pink mohawk with just one pro on the team, the pro never seems to gets listened to in terms of keeping a job on the down low and has to try to put up with the constant head ache of all the associated heat of either not seeming to pull enough flamboyant weight in the group or taking the blame for their bone headed moves. At that point I see the pro never really engaging and just waiting for an opportunity to either slip out the back door unnoticed and/or blow them all to bits and burn the identity associated with that team to disappear and reappear as a new runner who will hopefully find a less moronic team next time around the Mr. J job board.
Zyerne
Not had that happen in Shadowrun, but have had it happen in D&D, very annoying.

I've got a Ork Avenger with Rogue multiclass (kinda Religious Ninja for the unitiated) and half the time when I try to scout or go for silent kills, all the guys in heavy armor tromp along behind him giggling.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (CanadianWolverine @ Nov 13 2010, 07:17 PM) *
Man, I feel like this is being looked at the wrong way for some reason after reading through the whole thread to this point. Why isn't such a awkward freak of a character being looked as an asset for the team? What, no one has ever had him be Mr. Obvious either as a distraction or bait while the rest of the professionals do the real job they didn't tell him about, heck, that they didn't even tell him about the meet with the Mr. Johnson while they were haggling for jobs? Hell, its even a kind of safety net, if any kind heat comes down on the team for a job, its going to find him first, that could be a wonderful advantage - always assume someone is trailing the freak, then you can track the people tracking him! Oh man, the amount of fun you could have...

I just think pros love pink mohawks, they help them live longer by taking all the flak while they go unnoticed. And if your whole team is pro and you haven't hired a pink mohawk team to run a distraction run (you don't tell them this of course) to lead your target(s) on a wild goose chase, you obviously need to read Sun Tzu or something.

I like that. I would second it.
Mayhem_2006
QUOTE (Zyerne @ Nov 13 2010, 06:26 PM) *
Not had that happen in Shadowrun, but have had it happen in D&D, very annoying.

I've got a Ork Avenger with Rogue multiclass (kinda Religious Ninja for the unitiated) and half the time when I try to scout or go for silent kills, all the guys in heavy armor tromp along behind him giggling.


If guys in heavy armour are able to trail behind you, you aren't much of a ninja.
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