Is there any sort of errata for the metavariant BP costs? Or even an explanation as to why Oni are 5 BP more than Ogres or baseline Orks?

Hm... because they are badass?

They be rarer full stop that it. They even have negatives over orks too. That's the offical line. Also errata pfft like they get relased or updated any time regularly. Maybe if they need to reprint a book.

Sweet. I love the flavor tax.

You do. I think you are the first ever DSer to post in agreement. Seeing as they gain nothing bar distitive style a negative that can be quite crippleing.

A negative quality that makes them stand out, as well as large, obtrusive horns and additional bulk that makes them even harder to hide. Yay.

And as I've said before, you can't really call it a rarity tax, because there are other equally rare/freaky-looking metavariants that are good bargains, such as wakyambi, satyrs, etc.

Maybe they put in some metatypes for us min-maxers, and others for the "role-playing, not roll-playing" crowd, so not only could they get to play an angsty oppressed ork metavariant or a neo-luddite nature lover elf metatype, but they could also have the additional joy of paying extra for it, so they can point out how non-optimized their character is.

Quite right for +5 bp. If you to a BP annayalise of all the metas and verients this is a small issue Fomori are like half price atleast being ubertrolls.

Also they look fierce and intimidating... Ok... maybe they get no dice for it... but fuck it.

Hm on the point of variants: Yeah... the whole thing is a bit weird: No fixed stats (but the metagenic ones), Night Ones and Fomori changed from SR3... It somehow feels a bit... weird.

I'd give them siutational modifrers like the ones trolls get for lookign scary. They just don't get more dice as there race but tabel in the books have such mods. Some things can just get them easyer.

um if you look in the list at the end of the runner's companion you will find a list of Meta variants that also have the Oni points at 20.... i saw something in and older post that it was the intended cost! Just food for thought though since it is two diffrent places has diffrent costs in the same book Guess we will find out when the Tables come out in the runners kit




Page 181 in RC

Well, then You must have missed my support of the Oni...
I have no issues with them, and love the Flavor text as well... I have YET to find it crippling in the least...

If you don't like the rarity Tax
make your Oni via Surge.
It saves you some points.
I made me a male Dryad ,saved 5 Points and got Astral sense in addition (good thing for an Adept,saved Me a ki point )

With a Bargaindance
Medicineman

This is why I dislike the Metaveriants costing more you can do the same better.

Has anyone come up with defensible value-based costs for the different metas, factoring in things like attribute boosts and detriments, special abilities, and prejudice?

I treat the meta-variants as SURGE for the BP cost, this way, some variants will cost lower, and some will increase A LOT (fomori I'm looking at you).

Given that so many (all?) of the metavariants are representations of beings from various cultural mythologies, isn't it possible that they are present to provide an array of cultural icons to play, translated as well as the writers could into SR mechanics, rather than a roster of 'equal' opponents?

To each their own. I understand your opinion, but don't share it.

My personal preference is that players not feel prodded into making particular role-playing decisions just to keep their characters from sucking. If I had a player who wanted to be a free spirit, or a Loup Garou, he will quickly find that by RAW he'll be a liability to the team regardless of the subsequent choices he makes, because those meta-races are so FUBAR. We could argue that spirits and infected shouldn't be allowed as playable races at all, but if they are listed as playable, they should be reasonably functional as well.

Just my opinion, and as always YMMV.

It's not actually an opinion, but rather a hypothesis I'm putting out for discussion.

I understand your point, and in general agree. I get the sense from the discussion here that the Oni are out about 5 BP. Does that constitute 'sucking'?

See HERE for an ongoing exploration of what others seem to think is a viable Free Spirit PC.

Free psirts are SO hard to kill and keep dead that then can be a little bullet spounge if need be I'm sure bing in the metaplane for soem time is better than haveing a TPK.

For the duration of the run? Eeh. Not feelin' it.

I still think that Free spirit as written is a playable option, week from the get go (they were just born) but have the option of gaining power long past any other PC even magicians. Quick point of this is that they have no actual stat max, if they initiate it keeps going up as long as you adventure to gain Karma. So what that you are not super PC from the start…that is where roleplaying should be the main focus…develop the world around the runners, light action.

My fave PC was a free spirt face in a 350 bp game. was a real hard build to make but was so much fun to grow in power buy buying karma and such.

No, I don't have a problem with a 5bp variance, but some of the other meta-races are significantly poorer. From a theoretical, idealistic perspective, if value-based pricing and equivalent opportunities are good things, why shouldn't they be applied to all the races?

I believe an Initiated mage can make a quest to bring a disrupted spirit back from the metaplanes. Probably learn the spirit's Name in the process, but that's something a free spirit PC would likely have to deal with sooner rather than later.

Sure but would you rather have you PC out for the run or have to roll a new sheet? Also if this sacrifise saves the run and or the other PCs in my eys its worth it and not a liability. I know when we had jamming issues my free spirt saved our demolitions plan by manualy pushing the button on site.

Ouch!

It's all random, including the original metatypes. Either re-value the whole list, or just whine at the GM.

I lived I was only out for a luna cycle got me RP karma too so meh. yeah it was drastic but it was that or TKP/ massive party deaths fightign back in to re wire it then fighting out then pressing the switch.

I see no reason that the metavariants should not have a cost almost directly proportional to what they gain and lose. If a rarity tax needs to exist, make it fixed (5BP just to be 'different') and keep the baselines the same. As annoying as it is to have an Oni without enough BP, it's just as annoying to veto every player who makes an ogre just because it's an ork with a free ogre stomach (even if they have a great backstory). I feel the whole section just needed a little more TLC from a developer. My solution to this problem (a house rule) was to encourage people to build their own metavariants via SURGE but using the book descriptions as a template to keep everything feeling balanced.

Edit: I also miss the SR3 style dryads...

Agreed, about the Ogre (and don't forget, access to SURGE qualities). Theoretically, all the metavariants should simply be meta+SURGE anyway, right?

I guess that depends on when we started seeing meta variants in game rules. If before the surge then surging to get meta variants at the right cost seems a little off. But then again I have nothing wrong with surging a drake, as long as it is a very well developed PC, it is in RAW as long as the GM is okay with it. (Best is the earth drake, surged with granite shell) What do I know though

Um. I just meant that the metavariants in SR4 are basically 'built' by taking a metatype and adding SURGE qualities. More or less. This is very different from how it worked in SR3.

Why were you out for a Lunar Cycle... ALL Free Spirit PC's have the option to have the Friendship pact at character creation, for Free (PAge 92 of Runners Companion)... Why exactly would you not take this ability as a Free SPirit PC? I know that I would...

lol I went and bought the old book for SR3 and you are so right, lots more flavor then.

Metavariants in SR3 had a flat-out extra 5 BP cost added to them - a few had enough offsetting advantages to make them worth it (like the baseline elf is worth it for some builds despite coming in 10 BP behind a human), but none of them were a bargain purely cost-wise.

In some ways, they had more flavor, but in other ways, I disliked them. Some, like the dryad, seemed more like Monster Manual entries than PC metatypes. Crap like "All members of this metatype live in the boonies, are shamans, and worship trees." Bleh.

I seem to recall gnomes were afflicted with that logic in SR3 as well. It wasn't enough to be tiny, child-people...they also had to be trapped in the woods.