What would paratroopers be like in the 2070's? Would they still even use parachutes, with the availability of hydraulic jacks on cyberlegs and milspec armor? Would they use HALO jumpers and deploy them similarly to (ironically enoguh) Halo ODSTs?

Just a few questions I was curious about. Thanks.

Nothing can really replace a paratrooper and even with cybernetics getting dropped from a plane without a parachute will only result in broken gear (and bones). I don't know about other countries but I'm pretty sure they would use HALO jumpers as...well...HALO jumpers. Not really much else to do with them and the tech isn't like ODST so they would use them like we use them today.

There's a reason they call it terminal velocity. Hydraulics ain't gonna stop a guy from cratering if he doesn't have a chute.

JETPACKS... i mean: come on it's the FUTURE (We should have them RIGHT NOW even.. it IS the mysticaly awesome 2010 - Robots and flying cars everywhere)

But seriously: Hydraulic jacks: NO. Jumpjets: Maybe.

Having a Military Armor and some backpack with some extendable high-pressure jets doesn't seem THAT far off. Of course they won't have that much fuel. Maybe enough for a fast descent (stopping it) and after that enough to jump a few walls, then empty.

But best bet is still a parachute (or the nightglider), of course. Much less sci-fy-y, but much less expensive and prone to failure. (Also: less awesome)

I'm thinking less parachutes and more gliders. More precise and you can mount more gear on it. Also the plane can skirt the territorial boundaries that way.

Gliders and chutes are lighter than a jetpack.

Ah well... let's make it this way:

Jumpjets
This is a high-tech drone-vehicle, which is best integrated into a military armor system. To perfectly handle it, it has to have a DNI-connection to the user. Unlike other vehicles this one does not have the usual statistics.

Follow these rules: The pack has ten (10) units of fuel. To stop a fall from terminal speed to a surviveable fall it needs to burn at least five (5) charges. The fall after that is a DV 4 fall. Every additional charge lowers that by 1.

Using the jumpjets to jump adds 5 meters to the length of the jump and 2.5 meters to the maximum height. Also it provides a +5 dice pool modifier for athletic to enhance such jumps. This costs one charge.

All benefits are cumulative with the use of hydraulic jacks and other (non-booster) enhancements to falling, jumping and flying.

Weight: 13kg Price: 20.000 NY. (Troll version costs 10.000 more and weighs 28 kg) Availibilty: 18

YAY!!!

Would paratroopers even exist? The value of airborne paratroopers is really dependent on having battle lines between opposing armies and you can get an advantage by having a division or so of troops behind the enemy lines. If you're just trying to get troops from point A to B using an aerial lift, you're probably better off taking a helicopter unless point A and B are both airfields.

Starship Troopers Armor?

I admit, I envision Combat heading more towards small, highly trained, well equiped individuals. (For the Professional Armies)
And towards cheap, unaugmented masses for the warlords and the countries where the majority of the population lives in squatter life style.

They have since the '50's. The first time Alamais went down was against a paratrooper unit spotting for those LEO aircraft-borne ( ) lasers.

Just a point of contention, but that seems to be more of an artists love affair with airborne than any reasonable usage of modern forces. That seems like a huge waste to drop an airborne regiment just to laser target an object. That really would be more of the operation of a special forces team or at worst a sniper-spotter pair since both of those elements are trained in stealth insertion.

It wasn't just to target a single object - it was to shut down a terrorist organization. They just didn't realize that a dragon was running it at the time.

Rather, the protagonist didn't - but the rest of the unit did.

There is nothing that can replace a parachute. It is cheap, light, stealthy and easy to train on its use. A better questions will be, will there even be airborne units in the 2070s? Special forces will continue to use parachutes in the future, but if regular army needed to do an airborne drop, the combined weight of armor, weapons and gear would make using a jetpack or a parachute by itself impractical. Instead you would see a combination system where a jetpack and parachute would work together to slow decent.

The US 101st Airborne has the highest count of airborne elements among airborne divisions, yet I don't think they have ran an airborne drop for quite some time (real life).

Just because they haven't doesn't mean they won't.

Helicopters have made air assault a wildly different beast, certainly. Parachute drops (or hangglider drops) can be a lot quieter when they're done right.

Paratroopers aren't just about dropping from a parachute.

it's about being trained, equipped, and mentally prepared to fight anywhere at anytime.

The 101st Airborne have light armored vehicles, Light artilerry, they can assemble a fighting force and have it on point, on the bounce quickly.

That's what being Airborne is about. Yes, they still teach parachuting and it's still important.. because it's definitely a valid, economic way to deliver a fighting force somewhere.

IN 2073, I would expect the airborne to have LAV's, to do LALO jumps, to use glider/parachutes.
And to have the ability to bring a whole world of destruction quickly, and effectively. To take and hold positions.

IIRC: The last major airborne operation was in Veitnam when a regiment was parachuted in.

From what I can tell (from a civillian perspective), most of the drops are porbably special forces halo drops and those are far from normal. If you can go in by helicopter, you go by that route over paratroop drops.


Even now, warlord armies are no match for a small well trained and equipped force. The problem with warlord forces is that they really are just a guy with a gun and maybe a few clips of ammo. The amount of training is minimal at best (a couple of shots at the range), support equipment (body armor, radios, comm gear, camo, weapon accesories, logistical support) and medical gear is vitually non existent. The professional soldiers on the other hand have the best gear and training that money can buy. Also, they now if they do get hurt, they will be medivaced and taken care of.

In SR, the fact of the matter is you do have vehicles that are essentially jet packs (forget the name--AFB, but it is in arsenal) . Combine that with spririts, magic, and deltagrad cyber-a small strike force of 10 (2 Mages, 2 Hackers, and 6 gun bunnies, and rigger support offsite) men (I use that term loosely) could do alot of damage.

For example, these ten men would first eliminate enemy mages, comms, and senior officers, probably via stealthy means--sniper rifles, drone attacks, spirit assaults, etc. Then (if the force doesn't scatter at that point) go to the lesser officers. Wash rinse repeat.

Functionally, they are equipped like any other infantry division with the exception that they have the training to do airborne drops. Look through the history of the 101 and you will see many of their engagements run just in line with other infantry divisions. As far as I can tell, it's the army's attempt to emulate the marines by having theoretically quickly deployed divisions.

Realistically, I don't see the 101 doing a real airdrop unless the US Army starts slugging it without another national army that we can't just bulldoze through with the marines.

Lets face it we won't see mass Paratroop drops unless that our only insertion option, and that is not gonna be the case baring war in some way way out hole. In general i don't see drops to be a safe concept in the 2070s, with drone doing what they do i could see mass drops being a slaughter real fast. There almost certainly a better ways to do it in 2070. I think the Air Cav, solution is more likely Mass Copter or Hover drops are way more survivable for everyone concerned.

The 101st hasn't been an airborne unit since Vietnam. You guys watched too much Band of Brothers and not enough We Were Soldiers apparently. They became Airmobile, and eventually Air Assault and only retained the "airborne" identifier for historical reasons. They are helicopter borne. They don't conduct division level parachute drops anymore. The 82nd, along with other actual airborne elements, still conduct drop training routinely.

Last major airborne drops were conducted by the 75th Ranger regiment in Grenada, 504th in Panama, and the 75th and 173rd into Northern Iraq. The capability is still used, even though it's mostly and outdated tactic with the advent of helicopters and the nature of the modern battlefield. Airborne drops are typically more for smaller unit insertions, as opposed to divisional, regimental, or battalion sized drops. The only reason there was a Brigade level drop into Iraq was because Turkey wouldn't allow NATO forces to enter from their country.

Given the lower scale of most Shadowrun combat, insertions via tilt-rotors like the Osprey are probably much more common. The range and speed of those craft mixed with decent troop capacities would make them ideal.

Artemis Industries Dawnglider, Arsenal pg.112






-k

Everything you said is true as far as I know. Nice post. Just one contention. In shadowrun, the Tilt-rotor aircraft are more likely to be VTOL.

Uh, pretty much all tilt-rotor aircraft are VTOL. That's why they tilt.

Learn something new everyday. I had no idea we had major drop(s) into Iraq. That's very interesting, time to go read up.

Power-armor jumpjets wouldn't be a drone or a vehicle. They'd be an armor mod, presumably on a purpose-built armor suit. As for actually using them to *jump* instead of para-drop, don't forget that you have to also land that super-jump.

The reason why the 75th and 173d dropped in Northern Iraq was that Turkey wouldn't let them go overland. While massive airdrops of soldiers are a thing of the past, we still and will continue to do large airdrops of supplies. Drops of small numbers of special forces will continue to go on but air mobile landings are the norm anymore.

Blood and Guts didn't have a very positive opinion of airborne drops. He didn't like that you dropped in soldiers lacking all the stuff they needed to fight at their best. He also didn't like how long it took for the generals that ran the airborne troops to come to a decision about an objective he said they could go after (mostly because by the time they reached a decision, he had already taken it over).

Yep, Vertical Take-Off and Landing is a capability, not a powerplant or lift type.

The Osprey is a VTOL craft, just like the Harrier. Though, the Harrier rarely takes off vertically. It's more accurate to call it STOVL (Short Take-Off, Vertical Landing) since it usually takes off horizontally to gain lift from its wings. Taking off vertically with a full armament would use up over 20% of its fuel just to get to a safe altitude for horizontal flight. The capability is there for VTOL, but not often used. That's why even in Shadowrun, it would still be much more likely for tilt-wing craft to be rotary wing (helicopters) since the blades provide lift and not just thrust.

during the opening days of the US going into Afghanistan, didn't they have a large night op drop to secure an airfield? I remember they were showing the video afterwards of the night drop. I believe the answer is yes, they'll still have, especially when you want to have a large amount of troops take a particular objective. The planes will have a longer range and faster speed in getting to the location over helicopters (though Ospreys are a different matter). Plus, you can just drop much more troops/gear.

Problem with jumpjets would include probably the noise factor along with heat signature as the packs are activated to slow the descent. The chutes might not show up as readily and the body can more easily be shielded from heat detecting devices than the exhaust of the pack.... plus, it's cheaper.

Sidenote, Ospreys are a dangerous piece of shit that no serviceman or woman should ever be forced to enter.

Parachutes are a simple, low cost and pretty reliable thing. Not a lot of need to replace them especially since actual air drops aren't super common anymore.

Side note: What exactly do you know about the Osprey?

The mechanical issue that caused the crash in Arizona in 2000 was identified and eliminated. The Osprey has been in service in Iraq and Afghanistan for over three years now and the only incident was an Air Force bird that crashed, attributed to pilot error in a brown-out. I've personally witnessed their successful flight ops many times. Try not to spread any more rumors around that you can't actually substantiate.

Continuing the aside, his is a widely assumed viewpoint due to its troubled prototype phase. Tough bird though, managed to survive a lot of flak thrown its way.

I'll just point you here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell-Boeing_V...rey#Controversy

So, in the end, the Marine Corps says it's safe. Which is actually the same thing they were saying all along, which one man was relieved of duty for saying fraudulently. Their story never really changed, did it? Is it a conspiracy to get these birds in the air regardless of their safety because so many billions of dollars have been poured into it? I think so.

You can say that it's been in service for years now and it's only killed a few people. Fine. The Ford Pinto was released in 1970 and not recalled until 1978, and it only killed about 130 people. It doesn't take much.

I doubt, as has been mentioned, "Paratroopers" in the sense we all tend to initially think about (Band of Brothers rocked, right!) would be common place in 2070-but as has been mentioned there is some potential scenarios, and advanced training is never a bad thing right? in the end you get to choose if your game plays out like an 80's Arnold Action flick, or a dead serious affair-or whatever falls in between.

He pointed out quite clearly the bird has an excellant record, the whole thing about the Osprey really is just a holdover from it's somewhat patchy prototype phase.

And arguing about it on Dumpshock is guaranteed to do nothing but make some Moderator unhappy.

It doesn't matter what the Osprey record may or may not be.

In Shadowrun, VTOL is a working fact, and there are many examples of it.

The Pinto's reputation is greatly exaggerated. To put it bluntly, the infamous cost-benefit analysis wasn't about the Pinto (it was about the expected costs of litigation and recalls across the industry, not just Ford) and Mother Jones' numbers were way off, with the 180 people a year number being an estimate they basically plucked out of the ether. Breathless articles around the nation talked of fiery deathtraps that could potentially maim or kill thousands when the reality is that 27 people died in Pinto related fires, and an indeterminate amount of those deaths were due to specific Pinto design flaws since fire related auto deaths were a distressingly common feature of '70s automobiles. The biggest problem with the car, after all, was how the fuel tank was placed behind the rear axle, a design issue that was hardly unique to the Pinto. In principle I want to like Mother Jones and what the publication does, but good lord, have they been guilty of some sketchy reporting in the past.

LOL. So your answer is "Nothing".

Check. Look up the number of fatalities due to H-60, H-53, or H-46 crashes since 1992. I bet you'll find the death toll is probably higher for each bird. All but four of the fatalities were incurred during the testing of a prototype airframe. There were fatalities involved in the implementation of rotary wing aircraft in the 50s too. It's an unfortunate fact of the research and development phases for military aircraft. A lot is expected of them, and a lot is pushed out of them. Mishaps happen.

How many deaths have we seen from the 737 airframe? 250 this year alone. And yet you wouldn't go around screaming that the 737 was an airframe no commuter should ever be forced to enter. Sure, there's a question of comparative flight hours, but you should probably keep the speculation based on Wikipedia articles you don't understand to yourself and stick to topics you know something about. This is a Shadowrun forum. If you know something useful about or related to Shadowrun, feel free to comment. Dragging this topic off track with incorrect and baseless speculative commentary is somewhat pointless.

Grr. This forum is terrible about double posting. Needs a 1 second or two second flood control or something.

Says the guy who claims to be at the natural maximum in all physical and mental attributes IN REAL LIFE. Seriously guy, get over yourself.

If you took that seriously, then the fault is yours alone.

However, you made the poor choice to vocalize an unqualified opinion. I asked you what you knew about the Osprey and your answer was a wiki article. No offense man, but from somebody who has first hand experience and professional knowledge of the craft, that's going to be a little funny. I'm not an engineer, so I gave you an opportunity to present knowledge I don't have access to. The fact that you didn't have it? Well, the fault is again yours alone. Personal attacks will not save you.

I still say you took Uncouth and CHA's your dump stat.

What I know of the Osprey is from the same article, and I took a very different view from it. On a lark, I took a look at notable military-related aircraft crashes in the past decade or so...I believe it was 3-4 Ospreys, and quite a few more of every other craft. Most Osprey crashes were test flights, though one was a bad hydraulic in...'07, I think.

We've had more 15's auger in than anything else in the past decade. Combined, I'd almost wager. The lack of explanation on the '22 that went down after takeoff at Nellis was hilarious, though. Had a couple contacts on the flight line tell me what went down there.

Charisma is an applied attribute. You have to want, or care about being liked in a particular social situation to actually use it. Remember, Intimidation is a Charisma based skill too, and has nothing to do with being liked. This is more of a house ruled NQ of Low BS Tolerance. I've said a few times before that I hate liars.

Of course. You have professional knowledge of the Osprey, the M-1 Abrahms tank, The SR-71, and you're a 5 style blackbelt who specializes in fighting groups of armed opponents. You haven't cited 1 shit more than I have. Please reveal your sources. "Personal experience" doesn't mean anything here on the internet.

Seeing as only the Air Force and Marines are using these things right now, I'd go with their estimations on the capability of the craft.

If the Marines like it enough to phase out their current rides (which they are), and if those testing it prefer its range and maneuverability to traditional helicopters (which they do), then it must be doing well enough.

They liked it well enough to fake the data on it. I'm sure Lt. Colonel Odin Liebermans' superiors like it just as well now as they did back then.

Yes, because military aircraft are never revised, particularly after a series of highly publicized failures. The unnecessary deaths and continual embarrassment means the craft is working. Call the Osprey a boondoggle if you want, since clearly the development problems and cost overruns are quite real. But that doesn't mean the craft hasn't been significantly improved upon.

Again, enough to start phasing out their current, traditional helicopter fleet. The Corps and the Air Force both could've scrapped the project, and they did not.

So yes. It's survived the military contract system, the brass, Congress, and the court of public opinion. I didn't think the aircraft was armored against bureaucracy, but there you are.

Replace 'military aircraft' with 'personal armaments' and you've just described the M-16.