Mickey-Mouse grenades.

What are you talking about? Their damage (modified by net hits) is greater than the armor, and as such not staged down to stun. I don't see where the hell you're getting "*another* invented rule" from, unless the core rules of the game are now considered invented rules.


Well, if you can't read my examples then you can't be helped. I showed in great detail how a dragonfly could take down a truck with quite respectable stats. It would take some time, but I never claimed it would be instant, and neither does the fluff.

And 2 damage an IP on average is hardly 'maybe scratching'.

It does work, you just have to not be a total moron.

Their DV rarely beats armor unless you've already let them get a no-defense attack. That's an invented rule. Regardless, I was agreeing with Ascalaphus, who was talking about combat drones. They have armor.

14p is nice, but if you're doing it on the cheap, frag grenades are 35

you can also use whatever boomboom you have on hand, and a 60 pull detonator.

sure, it will set off chemsniffers for miles around, but you're not going for subtlety here.

/dont forget the improved AP and blast rules for IEDs in arsenal.

edit: how the heck did I doublepost.

Yeah, explosives ideas always come back to the fact that grenades already cost nothing and can be remote detonated (via command) right out of the box. Duct tape.

Not really, if you can't defend yourself from an attack (You suggest a way that a vehicle can dodge something that it sitting on it) you don't get to roll defense for it.

As for combat drones. I always forget, does the DV have to beat or just equal the armor for it to remain P damage? Either way they can still do half-way decent on anything up to about armor 6. After that, yeah, won't be doing any damage unless you have a hundred or so drones.

Oh, and as for your earlier swarm question, the answer is "However many are required for the effect you want." If you want to take out the truck from my example earlier in 1 combat turn, you're looking at somewhere around 30 drones. If you want to take out an unarmored Joe Average, in one combat turn, you're looking at around 2-3. If you want to take out Joe Street in one combat turn, you're looking at... Rough guess of 20ish (Full stun track).

At that point, as I said, you've already invented to rule that the HK can be 'sitting on it', presumably without making any roll at all (I suggested one, though). Again: *if* they get free no-defense attacks with hits doing nothing but boosting DV, then they can eventually hurt *some* things.

I'm not attacking the HK. I think it's a great concept. I just wish they'd bothered.

You're right, there likely should be a rule for landing on moving stuff, but there isn't, so it goes off the same rule as landing on non-moving stuff (which is that it is automatic) unless you want to invent a rule. And just like attacking a wall, you get a free no-defense attack with hits doing nothing but boosting DV.

Oh, and my examples from earlier weren't taking advantage of called shots, which would make them significantly more effective. They could take on vehicles with armor up to about 9 then.

I still say they're effective as written. I think 2.5k for a drone that can dismantle a truck given a minute or so is exceedingly impressive.

We've already talked about called shots, though. I said that, if anything, you should require one for this magic free land-on action.

I know what you mean, but I think it's more 'cut wires to disable' than 'dismantle'. We'll have to keep waiting for the ravaging nano-cloud that eats things.

Why? You land on something. Done. I don't see a called shot being needed. If you're talking about landing on a vulnerable spot... it's called moving. The drone crawls around to the vulnerable area and starts cutting away.

Could be considered a melee attack.

In which case it's Pilot+Maneuver, Response+Skill, or Command+Skill.




-k

If it's latching on (securely) to one spot, that's one thing (supported by the fluff). If it's crawling around, that's another (not supported by the fluff or crunch). It doesn't have gecko tips; it doesn't even have *feet*. Either way, we don't know. I can see that doesn't concern you. For me, I'd like to know if you get a free automatic hit that sets up indefinite no-defense attacks. Or, if you have to successfully 'grapple' a 'vulnerable' spot. Or another option: there are several that we can come up with. They all dramatically alter how effective this little guy is.

And there's *still* no way it can assassinate by slit throat. Even assuming the most advantageous rulings, it'll take at least 2 attacks. Lame. Hehe.

I don't see what's so difficult, melee attack, called shot.



-k

My biggest gripe as a drone player is that MOST drones out of the box are crap - you basically NEED modifications to make them useful.

Cost of parts should scale with size.

Mechanical Arm - Grapple - Micro: 10%Y
Mechanical Arm - Grapple - Minidrone: 25%Y
Mechanical Arm - Grapple - Small: 40%Y
Mechanical Arm - Grapple - Medium: 60%Y
Mechanical Arm - Grapple - Large: 80%Y
Mechanical Arm - Grapple - Vehicle: 100%Y

One minidrone with 2 grapple arms, spoof chip, Hardware toolkit and Chameleon Coating costs 7500Y NOT counting useful sensor options like cameras and microphones.

Efficient drone would be around 10K for ONE of them...

Basically take all modifications and split by percentage.

No, KarmaInferno, I mean that SR4 doesn't support a slit throat. Even if you (ridiculously) assume Body 1, unarmored, Called Shot, and perfect rolls, you'll won't do enough damage to kill in one attack. Which is what I said. It's mostly a joke, because the throat-slitting ability is not exactly an important point.

The Jopp, isn't the idea usually that it's harder to miniaturize things?

Actually it's quite easy if you use a monofilament garrote. Heck, it's possible with a survival knife.

Human with Str 3, R2 Muscle Toner, Kali, Sangre Y Acero, -4 for +4 Called Shot and a Survival Knife with one net success insta-gibbs a body 1, unarmored opponent.

With 4 Net Successes I think he gibbs a Bod 3 human. 5 Net if the Human gets 1 success on soak.

Now here, I'm afraid, you are flat out demonstrably wrong:

Core Rules, Page 159


So you need a landing check of some kind, even if most GMs sensible hand wave it for most normal landings. No "inventing" is required for the GM to alter the threshold or the dice pool modifiers due to other circumstantial modifiers such as high speeds and evasive maneuverering.

Neraph, what are you babbling about? We're discussing the *HK drone*.

Mayhem_2006, I agree: it should certainly be an attack roll, opposed by a normal melee defense pool. I suggested that if (per the fluff) you're landing on a vulnerable spot, it might require a -4 Called Shot.

On the plus side, if it's a grenade drone, a "grazing hit" might be all that is needed.



-k

edited my above post due to sudden attack of rules-fu

Maybe, KarmaInferno. It does say 'latch on to a vulnerable part', but that could actually be two options: grazing hit for a normal grenade explosion, 'latched on' for the half-armor 'Attached Demolitions' bonus?

That's interesting, Mayhem_2006. I'm not sure it's 'landing' (possibly closer to grappling), but it might fit.

It depends a lot on the size of the target. The basic HK was designed to pick on smaller drones - grab them and demolish them while continuing to fly themselves.

For purposes of unity, a grappling-like attack to land/grab/latch on seems the most elegant, because it applies to great and small targets.

The thing with human targets is that they can try to pull you off again, while most vehicles lack the maneuvering ability to shrug the HK off once it's latched on. And humans tend to have much more impressive armor than most drones.

I doubt it in 2070 when you have Nanites building cyberware inside someones body.

Also, mass production of cyberware that contains very small parts is the same thing.

Let's give an example. An engine block for a regular car as opposed to an engine block to a RC car - which one is the most expensive part...

Uhmmm... have you ever had to build something? The cost of the materials and the technology required to do so is dynamically inverse to its size. It's called Rock's Law and it is the corollary law to Moore's Law.

However if you wanted to create a baseline on Body 3 being "Standard" and then scale the prices up and down based on size from that I would have no problems.

Well, I more or less think that if you have mass produced drones in 2070 there should be plenty of mass produced parts of rather common modifications depending on industry requirements.

Factory production would have two things that makes up the production cost.

Fixed Costs
These costs are Rents, Employees, Mortgages, Machinery etc. Fixed costs are not affected by volume.

Escalating Costs
This would mainly be Materials, Delivery Costs, Electric bills etc.

The fixed costs gives us a Base Price and the Escalating costs are the ones that would make the cost of items rise depending on need. Escalating costs are affected by volume.

If two arms have a fixed cost of 500 but one of them require 200 in escalating costs and the other 10 then you would have a different Sales price depending on size of the parts.

We also have to factor in mass production which gives Fixed Price/Volume= Fixed Item Cost

Fixed Item Cost + Escalating Cost= Product Base Price

After this the producer adds his profit margin at perhaps 25-50% ...or more.

In the end a small product will take less shelf space and allows for easier storage which is good for a store, and the packaging will be cheaper so the cost for mass produced small components will be cheaper.

Economics, however, is voodoo. Also, its based mostly on game balance.

I'll agree with most of that. That is why I was willing to have a price base on the deviation from the mean (Body 3). You also forgot in include a few other things, the largest being the profit margin. (Others would be logistics and taxes/tariffs added to costs). Also the "Fixed Costs" are broken down and called the Burdened Labor Rate.

I could do the whole equation, but its not that interesting.

I will say that I would say screw outsourcing and just get a bunch of SINless with Skillwires to do the vast bulk of my manufacturing. If I was a Corper in 2070.