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Nerdynick
Pretty self explanatory. Would a character with the Echolocation bioware (pg 63 Augmentation) be able to discern the surroundings in a high-quality audio record?

Perhaps it would work better if they knew the location the recording was taken from? For example, a trideo security camera was blinded (or hacked and the video record deleted, but not the audio), could a person with echolocation 'put themselves' where the camera was and get an image from the audio?
Yerameyahu
The short answer is 'no'.

(The long answer is 'possibly'.) Echolocation uses sonic pulses, like sonar. If the recording was made with the appropriate tapping, clicking, etc., then the person probably *can* use echolocation with it. The GM might rule that it's even fuzzier than normal, do to quality and/or unfamiliarity (compared to their own ears/normal audio system).
sabs
I would say no. Because they're not there to properly receive the right vibrations.

And the sound is coming from the 'speakers' and not from the real location as they were recorded by the trideo camera.
Yerameyahu
Well, if it's capturing true stereo (or better), it should be at least *nearly* as good as metahuman binaural hearing. There is some evidence, though, that your brain judges sound direction by resonances of your pinnae and skull. So there's some support there for sabs' take. smile.gif
sabs
I'm not saying the recording isn't good. But replaying it is a bitch.

If you do a direct DNI replay, that doesn't help because it by passes your echolocation implant.

So you have to somehow play the sound back from the direction it arrived at the camera.

That's /hard/

P.S.
And playing it back using a headset also doesn't work right.
Nerdynick
I don't think the bioware system actually requires a special noise, similar to how the cyberware ultrasound sensor can be run "silent". In the above example, perhaps the noise used for reference is an intruder's footsteps? (grasping at insubstantial material, I know nyahnyah.gif )

So, say the camera had binaural hearing? We have 3D sound even in modern video games (which IS different, but my point is that it shouldn't be hard to make a binaural camera recording)
sabs
No the description of echolocation says you need a cane, or a clicking of your tongue against the roof of your mouth, or at the very least the tapping of your heel on the ground.

So it does require a special noise.

The problem is that a camera is a single point.
collecting the data from where it is. Now how do you turn around and play that back so that the person hears the sounds like he was standing where the camera was standing?
Nerdynick
And I referenced the sounds from the footage as a sound source, essentially using a specific background noise to echolocate. The kid in this documentary first learned to echolocate by listening to the sounds of buildings while passing in a car. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLziFMF4DHA )

Why is the camera being a single point a problem? Your head is a single point. And I think the opinion is that binaural cameras aren't hard to make.

As for simulating the person being in the camera's position, well, thats kind of the point of a recording. Otherwise, some creative roleplaying on the person's part might allow for it (heh, roleplaying in a roleplaying game. Surreal)
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Nerdynick @ Oct 29 2010, 10:10 PM) *
And I referenced the sounds from the footage as a sound source, essentially using a specific background noise to echolocate. The kid in this documentary first learned to echolocate by listening to the sounds of buildings while passing in a car. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLziFMF4DHA )

Why is the camera being a single point a problem? Your head is a single point. And I think the opinion is that binaural cameras aren't hard to make.

As for simulating the person being in the camera's position, well, thats kind of the point of a recording. Otherwise, some creative roleplaying on the person's part might allow for it (heh, roleplaying in a roleplaying game. Surreal)


Look, it's pretty clear you want this piece of cheese, so take it. I'm pretty sure there isn't a security camera on the planet that's going to have a sonar-quality receiver and recorder for someone to echolocate off of, but to each their own.

And as an aside, can the snide comments at the end. They aren't necessary.
Nerdynick
Well, its not that I especially want "this piece of cheese". I have no particular planned use for it (except maybe to pop a nasty surprise on my players, even though there are easier ways to do that, I'm sure) its just an idea that I came up with that I wanted to know if it was viable. I'm not yet convinced it isn't *viable*, though it is *situational*.

Edit: Apologies about the snide comments. It wasn't intended to come off that way.

*sigh* perhaps my argumentative nature is getting the best of me.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Nerdynick @ Oct 29 2010, 10:30 PM) *
Well, its not that I especially want "this piece of cheese". I have no particular planned use for it (except maybe to pop a nasty surprise on my players, even though there are easier ways to do that, I'm sure) its just an idea that I came up with that I wanted to know if it was viable. I'm not yet convinced it isn't *viable*, though it is *situational*.


If you want to craft a run or a series of them around the testing of this, I'd say go for it - but while I'm sure the technology for 2072-era recorders is capable of that kind of power I don't think they're manufactured with that in mind, if that makes sense.

You're talking about a custom-made echolocation recorders when one could just use the ultrasound mods or radar. If a player asked me for it, I'd tell him that he can't get it off the shelf and say it's a piece of cheese. nyahnyah.gif

The problem I'm having with it is that it's an 'organic' receptor trying to map a location with a technological sensor. If the recorder had that kind of fine control, I'd say it was already doing the mapping.

If it was a corp developing it, I'd have to ask why when there's more economical and reliable means of doing the job, unless you're wanting to echo-map the Deep Lacuna.

Truth be told, I'm probably the last person who should be scolding someone else for snide comments. Don't sweat it. nyahnyah.gif
Nerdynick
Okay, so cameras aren't going to be of high enough quality to allow for this unless custom made for this purpose? I can go with that.

As far as uses go, I would say the biggest usage would come when a corp has had a security compromise that has knocked out video footage and they didn't have the money to purchase ultrasound sensors for the building (not a very big corp or one that underspends on security). They might use someone with echolocation to reconstruct the scene.
Nerdynick
Gah! Double post!
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Nerdynick @ Oct 29 2010, 10:42 PM) *
Okay, so cameras aren't going to be of high enough quality to allow for this unless custom made for this purpose? I can go with that.

As far as uses go, I would say the biggest usage would come when a corp has had a security compromise that has knocked out video footage and they didn't have the money to purchase ultrasound sensors for the building (not a very big corp or one that underspends on security). They might use someone with echolocation to reconstruct the scene.


It's twofold. One's the camera itself, the other's the recording filters. They'd have to play with it for awhile to get things working to the level I think you're asking about.

We already see on the stage and screen that enterprising investigators clean up recordings to find little tidbits of clues. Can we use it to completely make a new room? I'm not sure. I don't know how well a passive locator is going to work with this. If the device itself was designed to send a pulse and measure the echos? Absolutely. Your example did teach himself to echolocate with active pinging, and then could use passive location when in the car.

The thing is - if they're picking up what's left of this camera after the fact, they already know what the room looks like. Any shell casings (if they're not using caseless), blood spatter and bullet holes is going to tell the story more than an echolocation would. I'm also not too sure how they'd get the work done as it'd cost a pretty penny and an ultrasound sensor in the ceiling would be cheaper. nyahnyah.gif
Bradd
QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 29 2010, 01:29 PM) *
No the description of echolocation says you need a cane, or a clicking of your tongue against the roof of your mouth, or at the very least the tapping of your heel on the ground.

So it does require a special noise.


That's not the impression I get from the rules on Augmentation pps. 63-64:

QUOTE
Ultrasound is not necessary for the use of this
implant—simple clicking noises with the tongue or the sound of
hard heels on the floor will suffice. Ultrasound, however, increases
the range and quality of perception.


That sounds to me like any reasonably distinct sound is sufficient for echolocation.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Bradd @ Oct 29 2010, 10:53 PM) *
That sounds to me like any reasonably distinct sound is sufficient for echolocation.


An active ping pretty well requires you to make the sound in question, though.

Nerdynick
But if there wasn't a firefight, say they planted a bomb (that was not readily detectable) and they need to find out where it was before it blew up, then those pieces of evidence won't be there. And they don't have to have an echolocater on permanent retainer, just hire him on a specific job.

This seems to bring the consensus to: This *might* be able to be done if the recording was cleaned up and the quality was good enough and there was a background noise available for imaging. However, this is a situational usage, and relies on too many variables to be dependable.

So the remaining question would be: are 2070 surveillance cameras able to record in a high enough quality for this to be feasible? I doubt there is serious data pointing one way or the other on that question, so it appears to be up to the GM at that point (although any such data that did point towards one argument would be welcome).
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 29 2010, 03:15 PM) *
I would say no. Because they're not there to properly receive the right vibrations.

And the sound is coming from the 'speakers' and not from the real location as they were recorded by the trideo camera.

Er, isn't the whole point of "surround sound" to recreate the directionality of the noise?

It's certainly possible to set up recording to catch 3D sound. What matters is the the playback system needs to ALSO be set up to reproduce the sounds in the same directions. E.G. you need multiple speakers arranged around you.

That said, echolocation needs more than just any sound. It needs a sound you already have a copy of before taking the reading, so you can compare the original sound with the reflected echo.


-k
sabs
Surround sound isn't that good though. It's not real surround sound. It's using fading and the 4 speakers to create the illusion of really being there.

Also surround sound is planned, and created by multiple recording systems/sessions gathering the information from different points.

If you put someone with echolocation in a room, with say an 8 speaker system. They might pick up some very basic information, if the recording was /really/ good. BUt they'd be suffering from the problem that to them.. the sound would be coming from those 8 speakers.. and not from a point 3 feet to the left, and 2 forward, like it /actually/ happened.

Sure, you can tell if someone is going from left to rigfht. But how far away from you were they? It would be tough to get that off any recording, unless you could actually generate the sounds from their proper locations. And if you can do that, why do you need the echolocation.
Nerdynick
Well, with a binaural recorder you could record with roughly the same capacity for echolocative quality as a human, I would think (depending on quality). Then playing back the sound via AR/earbuds would roughly simulate being at the scene.

For your last point though, if the echolocater had access to the scene (which they would in the proposed situation), they would be able to test the acoustic qualities of the scene, which would help tremendously in building the scene.
sabs
I don't think earbuds would work properly.
They have WAY worse fidelity
ProfGast
QUOTE (Nerdynick @ Oct 29 2010, 02:48 PM) *
Well, with a binaural recorder you could record with roughly the same capacity for echolocative quality as a human, I would think (depending on quality). Then playing back the sound via AR/earbuds would roughly simulate being at the scene.

I don't think binaural recording would be sufficient actually. Nowhere in the echolocation bioware description does it say that the ears are necessarily the only receptors. It simply says "bioware enhances the nerve strands required for echolocation. Binaural recordings would be able to simulate intensities of sounds based on directions, but is wholly unable to simulated directions of bouncing sound, especially in something as limited as a pair of earbuds. Even assuming completely faithful recording equipment that can store the sound files without any losses, clipping or the like, a playback that only gives relative intensities emanating from two points would not be able to faithfully reproduce Sound in a three dimensional environment. It might simulate it nearly enough for someone who has less sensitive hearing, but by limiting the sense input to what we, as normal humans, have, you'd limit the perception to something that we, as normal humans, are capable of.

At best a listener would have a very flat, static filled view. At worst you'd just go "I think he went behind the recorder" just like Joe Schmoe off the road who has particularly good hearing.

I think it WOULD be possible to record and playback a scene. But it would require pretty hefty equipment as well as some sort of sonic-chamber that has the ability to playback, damp and simulate noises in a full 360 degree way. AR/Simsense is a maybe, but definitely not something as simple as binaural recordings and earbuds.
Yerameyahu
The human ear isn't really very sensitive, so we can assume that earbuds in 2070, and especially trodes, can transmit any sounds with suitable fidelity. Similarly, microphones in 2070 should be plenty sensitive. The problem (with the earbuds) is that that's only two sources, so there's a limitation right there.

So, we know a couple facts about Echolocation. 1, it requires a suitably loud, regular 'ping' source, whether a click of the tongue, a cane tapping, an actual ultrasound ping (with extra gear), or even a similar sound from the environment (unlikely, but not impossible). 2, it works in the audible sound range with normal metahuman ears; the implant only affects the brain (well, nervous system). 3, the clarity and range is limited by background noise and the contrast of the ping.

So, this shouldn't be utterly impossible, and wouldn't require terribly major equipment for capture or playback. At minimum, 2 microphones would be required, but you could require more. The active ping source is still required: something loud, short, and regular (rhythmic). Like I said, you could limit (penalize) the range and clarity of this method (for a number of good reasons). There's no good reason for any character not to have trodes, so you could require them (over earbuds) for sufficiently 'realistic' playback; personally, I would require VR, so that *other* hearing is suppressed. It is a neat, creative trick, and not unreasonable or imbalancing (esp. because it's so niche).
ProfGast
My real question is, if you're already getting all of those things together, why you don't just uh... make an ultrasound-recorder camera of some sort?
Nerdynick
Well, I stayed away from VR playback because someone said it wouldn't work earlier (my mistake for not double checking these things), but if VR would work, then it would be preferable.

QUOTE (ProfGast @ Oct 29 2010, 11:04 PM) *
My real question is, if you're already getting all of those things together, why you don't just uh... make an ultrasound-recorder camera of some sort?


What if you didn't have the foresight to install those things though? In that case you bring in an echolocater to build the images based off the audio. Or at least, that is the proposed situation.
Yerameyahu
Well, ProfGast, it's only a few little microphones on the recorder end. Nothing outlandish. Yes, ultrasound or a real camera would likely be better if you were doing it on purpose from the beginning, but I assumed this was more of a 'creative forensics' situation. Like, 'hey, we have this audio, what can you do?' You're right: it's very niche, and it only works if there happens to be rhythmic noise. smile.gif
ProfGast
When the only tool you have is a spanner, then everything looks like it needs to be torqued. I guess I'll go with 'it's possible' to use echolocation to get some usable info out of a recording. And in a situation where an audial recording taken with a nice setup of mics is the only evidence available I suppose it could be helpful. But I still think that there are many much more effective methods for gleaning out information than trying to audially map something out. You could probably do it. It'd probably be pretty neat. But not altogether useful.

Just my opinion there.
sabs
well VR wouldn't work, because the implant effects the nerves strands in the body. Trodes bypass your nervous system and go straight to the brain. So unless you had written a program that converts the sound into the same sort of information someone gets from their echolocation enhanced nerves, they just would not get any meaning full information.

Nerdynick
I'm not a doctor so I couldn't really tell you, but since the brain is part of the nervous system, couldn't nerve strands refer to brain tissue? In which case, VR would work with it.
Yerameyahu
Psh, sabs, you have no idea if that's true. smile.gif It just says 'the nerve strands', not where they are.
ProfGast
Technically speaking 'Nerve' is only used for nervous system constructs in the peripheral nervous system, that either take sensory information back to the brain and central nervous system, or take motor commands from the brain out to the limbs and the like.

In the central nervous system, the pathways are generally called 'tracts', (spine and brain pathway), and in the brain it's specifically 'grey matter' not 'nerves'. Whether or not the devs MEANT it in this way is anybody's guess however.
Yerameyahu
I think I can say with 100% certainty that the devs didn't intentionally make a nerves/tracts distinction. wink.gif

sabs might well be right, because we don't know either way. smile.gif
Mongoose
I'd say it would certainly work, under two conditions:
1) The recording was made using cyber-ears or a mic setup that duplicates not only the binaural distance, but also the "sound shadow" created by the head that acts as a directional cue.
2) There's an appropriate "ping" source in the sound track that the adept can hear directly and as an echo. The location of the direct sound in the recording should be fairly clear to the adept- if its not in the same relative location as the adept is used to when using their own ears, then they won't get a very good "image", though will still have some idea of the general surroundings and especially of relative motions. Passive sonar IS possible for most creatures that use sonar, its just not as effective.

I also think it would work in VR, because most of the processing happens in the brain. Its doesn't matter how the signal reaches the brain, as long as the proper areas are stimulated. This assumes echolocation is simply a matter of hearing, of course. If it is a true "6th sense" rather than simply a new way of interpreting what you hear, then yeah, VR / simsense (and even normal audio recordings) would probably fail.
Nerdynick
I can assure you its not a "sixth sense". The description of the 'ware says that everyone has the ability, but its underdeveloped in most people due to reliance on sight. The 'ware just stimulates the nerves involved.
Yerameyahu
To me, it makes more sense as something that happens in the brain, and therefore works with VR, cyberears, whatever. That's just a personal, mostly arbitrary take, though. smile.gif
Mongoose
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 31 2010, 06:36 PM) *
To me, it makes more sense as something that happens in the brain, and therefore works with VR, cyberears, whatever. That's just a personal, mostly arbitrary take, though. smile.gif


Given the results of FMRI studies of people capable of human echolocation, science seems to support that take. Would be interesting to actually try this with such a person- would they be able to "watch" "3d movies" if you made recordings with the appropriate equipment and played them back with quality headphones?
KarmaInferno
Heck, regular humans do a minor form of echolocation all the time.

With a little concentration, most humans can tell the general direction and distance of a sound.

Full echolocation is just able to use reflected sounds on top of that, and to a much more precise degree.



-k
Nerdynick
Looking at the description, the ware is compatible with cyberears, so yes, it is most likely a brain thing.

Also, one could pull recordings from a guard with cyberears. Yay! More niche forensics!
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