The sayign should really truly be.

Never initiate a deal with a Dragon.

Do the Saeder-Krupp employees go to work thinking "Must not mess up today or Lofwyr will be pissed"?

I personally see it that it is sort of in the area of being a company man, or with a mob. Sure, the pay is good, but you are in the shadows, really. You sort of just work there. Kind of like selling out, if you will.

Of course the issue with a dragon is that it is utterly inhuman. You screw up with the corp, or screw over the mob? They'll simply kill you, torture, maybe target some friends and family if they can find them. With these, though, it's about the power and money.

A dragon? A dragon will literally eat you. And they have the means to find your friends and family to ruin their shit, too. With a dragon you have no grounds for comparison as to why they want you to do whatever. The closest you get to know understanding it is that you can be sure your actions are merely one thread in a tapestry, possibly spanning eons. And while it might prove mildly annoying should the thread that is you snap, you can easily be replaced.

You are little more than a tool, like tupperware. And while tupperware can do alot, sometimes it gets cracked, too microwaved, and so on. So you just toss out that old plasticware, and get some more. Not even a grunt of irritation over this.

And while a mega or a mob is pretty much the same way (you being little else than a tool for their use and disposal) there is at least, and maybe only on a subconcious level, the awareness that you are all metahumans. You got that much common ground. With a dragon, you've already lost, said the wrong thing, and did even worse just by walking into to make the deal. And its all part of the wiz-worm's plan.

Actually, all those things that you mention can be completely undone by a Dragon should he take an interest... Thor Shots, Nukes, Megacorps, etc. DEFINE reality... Dragons can WARP it to their OWN Desires; After the fact if they so desire...

EDIT: Applies to Great Dragons more than Normal Dragons obviously...

You've obviously never owned very much tupperware. That stuff is what they need to make spaceships with, I tell you.

Owned tons of it over the years... broke all the time... and yes, it was the NameBrand Tupperware... I finally quit using it (Quit replacing it really) as it was so damned expensive that I went to the stuff in common use today. It lasts about as long, and costs a LOT less...

That being said, I still have a piece or two still (has not broken or been lost over the years)

YMMV of course...

Thinking about this, would you say no if a dragon wanted to make a deal with you?

Guess so. I've abused the crap out of my coffee mug for over a year and it's still mostly fine. Still shows a little wear from doing battle with an X-Ray Machine (I hit the corner of the machine with the mug and it dented the lip a little).

Would you have a choice?

The fact that there might not be any good options doesn't mean you don't have a choice.

Do you mean the particular Brackhaus from Seattle? If he can't stand that you turned him down (on a job offer, I presume...), just get a new face, new SIN and move to a new town. Problem solved.

If it's a Johnson looking to hire you for a job, and you don't like the job.. just tell him you're not interested. Unless a job is trivial or you are The One, their chances of success on a run are higher with willing runners. Johnson's not interested in the runners, he's interested in the success of the run.

If a dragon wants something from you, they'll never let you go.



YES.

Actually thinking on, my mom's tupperware survived rather well. I must be thinking more along the lines of that gladware stuff. Also, you should see my wife in the kitchen.

Total.

Fucking.

Disaster.

Who knew some one could cause Pyrex to explode? And then there was the time she fused the tea kettle to the burner...

Yes. Yes they can. Even in death.




It's this last one that I giggle at every time though.

It's because Dragons have a reputation for being Machiavellian in their business ventures. And I ain't talking just the (meta)human-staffed ones.

Don't you mean draconian?

Now, you may say whatever you want about Dunkelzahn, but you've got to admit the Wyrm sure knew how to be charismatic.

And since we are quoting its Will, I quote the introduction: "My understanding is that most humans use their wills as instruments of encouragement and revenge, and it seemed like an excellent idea."
I'd say at least this dragon really understood the meta-human mind.

Well, draconion just means harsh, Machiavellian is wheels-within-wheels. And realpolitik, of course.

This is actually what I'm interested in. Sure, a Great is nasty, but take a nuke? Really?! I've heard this bantered around but I'd like some details. The closest I've ever heard of a dragon actually taking that kind of firepower is that there was a German dragon who got shot down either by missiles or Thor shots which may not actually be dead.

Most of the dragons who really seem to have warped reality in Shadowrun are ones who built entire organizations around themselves: Llowyfr, Dunkie, Celadyr, Ryumo (sorry for any misspellings). There's no indication that the less social ones, like the Sea Dragon or Aden are any less personally powerful than the more public ones but there's also no doubt that the social ones are far, far more dangerous. It seems like far more of their power comes from the resources and metahumans they control than their personal power.

… yes, and? That's *why* you don't deal with dragons, because they have resources. Magical resources, material resources, personnel resources…

So does everybody else, the world is full of people with major amounts of magical, material, and personnel resources. I'm curious what exactly makes a Dragon stand out from every other powerful being. They're alien to us and that makes them think differently, but this is a world in which mages frequently conjure immaterial spirits to do their bidding and most hackers utilize powerful autonomous programs to hack past other advanced autonomous programs.

Put another way, how would Saeder-Krupp be worse off or weakened if it was run by Deus or Nadja Daviar instead of Llowyfr? Two people, one probably as smart as Llowyfr, the other probably as well connected (you can imagine any suitably powerful non-dragon in their place).

Well, never deal with those people either.

I still think it's, "Never deal with a Dragon, because if you do shit will spiral way WAY out of control."




-k

Easy. They just use Twist Fate to make the nuke/launcher of nuke reroll all the dice that scored a hit on the relevant roll. So you fire a nuclear missile at a Great, roll well enough that it's sure to hit the thing. Cool story bro. Great uses Twist Fate, and suddenly your nuke isn't going to hit the overgrown lizard anymore.

EDIT: Or you could just be like Ghostwalker, with his quickened Force 24 Armor and Deflection/Combat Sense/whatever it is with 24 hits for each of them. But that's not nearly as fun.

Really?!

I can't even imagine a nuke in reality "missing" anything. It doesn't need a target, at most it needs a zipcode. Besides, per RAW, missiles just deviate from their target. Detonating 6 meters from the target instead of 2 meters isn't gonna change anything, nor is any crazy amount of armor.

But is that their big, reality warping power? That's the scary thing that puts them above everybody else, the ability to moderately inconvenience people for a turn. Don't get me wrong, if I was shooting a dragon that would suck but even a starting rigger should have a couple drones with LMGs and ADPS rounds. Can't see that being much help against large groups of opponents (ie drones, squads).

I think you are confusing "Herr Brackhaus" and "Governor Brackhaven."

Governor Kenneth Brackhaven of Seattle is a Humanis-sympathizing politician, who goblinized as an ork but somehow miraculously reverted to human due to unknown treatments. And yes, he runs Seattle.

Herr Hans Brackhaus is the name given to a Saeder-Krupp employee who is known for being a common contact to Shadowrgroups who run for Saeder-krupp. Some say he doesn't really exist. Some say there are multiple "Herr Brackhaus" who are specially trained for the job. And some say Herr Brackhause is actually Lofwyr.



Nadja Daviar is certainly well connected, but she is also A. currently missing, and B. following a Great's carefully lined out plan for the things she inherited from Dunkie's will. As far as we know she's also only got one elven lifetime's worth of experiencing backing her decisions. I doubt she'd have been able to suborn Leonardo, pardon, Dr. Antonio Vieri the way our favorite gold-dragon did. Maybe someone like Ehran or Harlequin. Or another founding Prince.

Deus probably can match a Dragon mentally, but is a bit young to take the LONG view. With certain amounts of learning, he can probably match Lofwyr, especially in pure calculation, but he rather lacks actual experience short of his acts in taking apart metahumans. However he certainly doesn't have the 5-10 thousand years of knowledge and experience that the Loremaster of the Dragons carries. He has potential, but little beyond that as we know him now.

In all, yes, a Great is just Another Powerful Being in a world that is full of Really Powerful Beings. But they're much harder to delete than a mortal like Nadja, or even someone like Harlequin. He has the ability to affect the real world much more directly than a powerful AI like Deus. And has many more years of experience than even an Immortal Elf. And unlike a sufficiently powerful Great Form spirit, can have access to the Matrix and all that it entails.

I personally think, upon some ruminating, that the line is given to dragons simply because they're much more iconic than spirits, and that while their temporal holdings and such can be compared to various Corporations and Crime syndicates, they are at the same time a single being with a single mind directing their choices. They're primal, like a force of nature. When one of them, be it Sirrurg, Lofwyr, or the Rhonabwy go on rampage you have about as much control of when they stop as you have a control of "how to stop that hurricane." And you have even less if they've suddenly launched one of their grand schemes.

Sure, there are forces that can cause you just as much trouble, heartache and pain as a Dragon. And even a number of things that can complicate your life as much as a Great. But none so Iconic and none so utterly unpredictable.

In short, a shadowrunner trying to cut a deal with a dragon is equivalent to a ventriloquists dummy trying to cut a deal with the ventriloquist.

The only reason the negotiation is allowed to take place is because it benefits the ventriloquist, and no matter how smart the dummy thinks he is, he is only acting out the scene that the ventriloquist scripted for its own entertainment.

You don't *deal* with a dragon. You do whatever it damn well tells you and pray that it rewards you - possibly with nothing more than continued existence.

What I don't understand is just how a face thought they were going to con a dual natured beastie with a few thousand years experience of reading auras?

As ProfGast said, dragons are iconic. A good proverb or saying needs to be short and evocotive (and it's better if it rhymes), so never deal with a dragon is simply a warning to remember your own limitations. Taking the whole saying of 'Shoot straight, conserve ammunition and never deal with a dragon' you could say 'Keep your objective in mind, be efficient and remember your limitations' I know which version I'm going to remember.

Also, for most runners, as soon as a dragon arrives on the scene it's brown trouser time regardless of what is happening; it's a psychological thing.

There's also this...

Yes.
If dragons keep track of every single coin in their vast hoards, down the last copper, what makes you think they wouldn't do the same tedious tracking of every grievance?
Plus they play the long game. They can afford to ignore your for a few decades before dishing out the revenge (it's a dish best served cold, you know).



Two things:
1) Twist Fate only works on creatures they can see.
2) If you spend edge while firing your (weapon of choice) the Great can either spend edge to negate your edge or reroll your successes, not both.

However, they can certainly edge their damage resistance roll.

Mayhem has a point. "Dealing" indicates that both sides can walk away if unhappy with the offerings. If players get to the point where a great dragon is offering a job, walking away has pretty much been removed from the table for the players. I have alsways played dragons as having their own code of honor which does not match up with human understanding much of the time.

The follow up to "Never deal with a dragon" to me is much more interesting. "Never trust an Elf". This statement has more to do with the immortal version than all elves though. At least thats how I view it. Especially when you look at Earth Dawn and reliese that all immortal elves are actually the halfbreed offspring of dragons and elves. The immortal elves were apparently an earlier attempt at making worthwhile servents that went very wrong. Hence, we have drakes which have developed their own problems as far as dragons are concerned.

The whole quote is from a shadow runners adage:

Watch your back, Shoot Straight, Conserve ammo,
And never ever cut a deal with a dragon.


Side note as to why the 4th is so important. You won't win. Why? Because:

1. Working for a dragon means you are going against another dragon or something equally nasty (Azzie blood spirits--any one??).

2. You fail the dragons mission you are either dead from the mission (if you're lucky) or will soon be dead. Reason you'll soone be dead is either the other dragon now knows you are aligned with the other dragon, or because you failed and you messed up your employers preferred option A and now has to settle for option B.

3. You succeed in you mission, the other dragon will still want to kill you. Your employer considers you disposable, so you don't have his protection. Also in the mix is the number of "unintended consequences" that crop up when dealing with a dragon.

Aptitude: Explosives?...

Anyone who's taken chemistry and put cold water into a hot beaker?

(My highschool chemistry class broke a 5 liter flask that way--prof was not happy)

Well, there is also draconic ritual sorcery... but that isn't something that Shadowrun goes into.

You could look at it this way then... Missile Fires... Targets Great Dragon... it all comes down to whether or not the Technician actually armed the device right... Twist fate makes it into a Dud......

Simple, Easy, and No Boom Boom... Dragon is now pissed off, eradicates a city because he can, case closed......

EDIT... Of course, as Draco18s pointed out, this may not work out... anyways...

Perhaps all the nukes that turned into duds right before and a little after the Awakening are the work of Dragons?

or at least a pretty bangin' ritual...

Yeah, nukes fired in Shadowrun tend not to work all that ell, huh?



-k

If by "not that well" you mean not at all.

The Ares one worked just fine in Chicago... right?

And the ones used by Israel to level Libia (or was it Iran?)
Anyway, IIRC the last time this issue was discussed, we agreed that nukes work only half of the time.

Well, it didn't level Chicago. Or even the city block it was in. I count that as "not working as designed".

I think the Libya ones are the only ones since the Awakening that went off as planned?




-k

No nuclear exchange has worked 'as planned' since the Awakening. Each nuclear device has either completely failed to detonate or produced a far lower yield than designed.

The Cermak nuke was a low-yield 'battlefield' warhead along the design of a Davy Crockett - that particular yield was both amplified and restricted by the physical shield the hive masters erected as the warhead sailed in.

The Libyan warheads and Winternight warheads both went off - to a point - but each yield was far below specs for that weapon - IIRC it was in the kiloton range for megatons and so on. There are theories that nuclear yields are directly affected by the ambient mana level as yields have further reduced since the second Ghost Dance.

Shadowrun Nukes only work when they make for an awesome plot device like blowing up Libya

Poor Libya.. you bomb 1 Airliner and everyone gets mad at you.

Actually yeah. They've only worked as a Deus Ex device.

Hey, at least we* didn't do something silly, like make internal combustion engines stop working (but still have fire).

*By which I mean the writers.

This has been riffed on in the published work...specifically, I think, the back of Dragons of the Sixth World (3E).

Anyway...not reading this entire topic, just gonna try to answer the OP.

One reason I can think of is that if you fail/betray a "normal" Johnson and that Johnson wants to revenge, he has to:

1. Hide his murderous rage from you long enough to get a safe distance away from the meet.
2. Get his corporate superiors to greenlight your deaths. (Optional but recommended.)
3. Contract either corporate assets or OTHER SHADOWRUNNERS to actually do the job.

(Admittedly, a particularly devious Johnson could have arranged these contingencies beforehand, but let's leave that possibility alone for now.)

If you screw over a DRAGON with your incompetence or disloyalty he can JUST FUCKING COOK AND EAT YOU. Like right there. ON THE SPOT.

That, to me, is the most logical explanation for the saying, although the "you are a chess piece" explanation makes a lot of sense too.

Edit: Oops. Guess this thread is about nukes now.

Neursis,
That pretty much sum's it up. I think the saying indicates you should never work for someone who can take action against you on the spot but rather work for people who are going to have to work up to killing you for messing up. It gives you more time to plan and if nothing else run.