Hi guys, I'm cool with pretty much all of shadowrun system, except for the rules on burst fire. They seem at same type complex and nonsense: throwing more lead in the general direction of the target shouldn't make more harder to hit it... Also, wide bursts, narrow bursts and the like don't make that much sense too.
Another thing that I don't like is recoil compensation: as it is you simply NEED IT, so there is no reason to not buy all the recoil compensation that you can get your hands on.

Based on all of this I'm going to try what I'm hoping that can be a simpler version of all of it. As I'm not an expert on shadowrun rules, maybe I'm making a glaring error or ignoring something that can make the game unplayable, so please criticize it!

For starters, there is no more wide or narrow bursts, only short, longs and full bursts.
Short bursts give +1 die to attack rolls and spend three bullets
Long bursts give +3 dice to attack rolls and spend six bullets
Full bursts give +5 dice to attack rolls and spend ten bullets

Now for heavy weapons (and automatic shotguns) I'm planning to use "Minimum Strength" requisites, so, maybe you need 7 strength to shoot that AS-7 Automatic Shotgun in bursts.
If you have the minimum strength required to shoot the weapon then you're fine, if not then there is a -1 penalty on attack rolls for each point under the necessary score. Recoil compensation like gas-vent and bipods add to the user strength score.

Well, this is the initial try, if we use it and it actually improves gameplay, I'm planning on making things a little more complex and increasing the minimum strength for bursts.

Hope you like it and give me your opinions!

The wide bursts basically do that already (even though in a kinda weird way).
By taking away the dodge pool, they make it easier to hit the target, effectively.

Also, your rules make automatic weapons incredibly weak. A narrow burst assuming full recoil compensation is the equivalent of 3 times the added damage in extra dice. So a long burst adding +5 damage would be more like +15 dice!

Back in 2nd edition, I had also made house rules for burst fire, which basically added extra dice for burst fire and not extra damage (apart from the indirect extra damage, thanks to more dice). I think it was +4 dice for the equivalent of a short burst (no short/long burst differentiation back then). In addition, if you hit with more than 2 net hits (called successes back then), you would make additional hits at the weapon's base damage plus net hits -2 (and -4, -6, etc, as long as the reduced net hits are still > 0 and there are enough bullets in the burst). That worked pretty well, too, and is a bit more realistic, I think.

Bye
Thanee

Well, about the bonus for each burst, it can be tampered with. I was trying to not make it too good but I will see what I can change. Thanks!

I think that your bonuses x2 would work better. There are other factors to consider, so x3 would be too much, I believe. You could also just use bullets fired = bonus dice, which would make it easy to remember, as a bonus.

Bye
Thanee

The rule that I've developed, and we're pretty happy with it, is similar:

1. No Narrow or Wide, just +DP per extra bullet (i.e., take the Wide dodge penalty as a +DP); what this does is remove the 'wasted bullets' from Wide bursts (after their dodge is 0), and remove the complication of choosing Narrow or Wide. Net hits count (as normal) toward beating armor.

2. +1 DV per 3 bullets (Short +1, Long +2, FA +3); this compensates for the removal of Narrow, keeps the +DP from being a literal 'RC bonus', and rebalances (encourages) bursts for damage (running the numbers, this brings things between Narrow and Wide). This bonus does not count toward defeating armor.

That's pretty much it. I compared the numbers of sample characters against each other using a few variations (no 1/3 DV bonus, using the total number of bullets instead of N-1, etc.) and this is the version that had the best balance. It's always a little stronger than Wide, always a bit weaker than Narrow, and streamlines thing. It's not perfect, certainly, and especially in the edgy cases (for one thing, it's harder to glitch—but I never saw any glitches in the first place). You can tweak it easily by using one of those variations, or new ones.

Here is the thread I posted to get help during writing this rule, a while back: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...c=31831&hl=

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Another rule, that I don't personally use, is to allow the Narrow/Wide aspect of the attack to be broken down into 3-bullet chunks: I fire a Full Burst, with 2 parts Wide and 1 part Narrow (-6 Dodge, +3 DV). This is especially useful for HV and minigun weapons, because choosing to overkill their dodge pool with -14 is frustrating, but so it missing on your +14DV attack. Obviously, the drawback is that this complicates things further, but it's nice because the game already uses the concept of longer bursts being 'made of' multiple Short bursts.

This one actually sounds pretty nifty way to handle bursts.
I like how it allows for more control of your burst, allowing you to fine tune the burst for every particular enemy.

Yes, it's just the extra complication that made me ultimately avoid it. I was aiming for *less*, is all. I feel like the other rule basically handles it for you (because your extra dice 'automatically' compensate for their Dodge), and is faster.

Now this is nonsense. I doubt that the people I've seen on youtube shooting automatic shotguns are superhuman. If the RC is used for redcuceing the required strength can you still use it for recoil compensation or is that gone for good in your houserule?

I don't understand what's so complicated about automatic fire.
You shoot more than one bullet. each after the first increases recoil penalty, damage or the target's doge penalty by 1. You can fire 3, 6 or 10 bullets.
RC reduces the inflicted recoil penalty. Recoil is accumulated over the action phase.
Hardly complex and it works.

I think we used to use strength to offset recoil. So I think it was every 2 or 3 points of strength gave you a point of RC.

to a lesser extent this is in Arsenal as an optional rule.

What I think is nonsense is the fact that shooting more bullets makes MORE hard to hit someone, when in reality it should be exactly the contrary.

I disagree with your fundamental point. Throwing more lead at a target should make it harder to hit due to recoil. All good marksmen, even with a full auto weapon, try to fire only 2-3 bullets per burst.

Only if your trying to hit the same spot with all of those bullets and have none or very little recoil compensation, witch to me seems pretty realistic.
Shooting more bullets in the general direction of the enemy(ie. using wide burst) does in fact make it easier to hit someone, if you have even one point of RC(and there's not many(if any) burst capable weapon in to game with zero RC) the enemy loses more dice then you do and a longburst is likely to reduce opponents reaction pool to 0 while leaving you more then enought dice to get that one net hit needed to hit(even when your gun has no RC)

I dont see how the various bursts dont make sense. Narrow burst increases damage, just like a 3 shot burst of tightly clustered bullets. A wide burst also makes sense. You spray an area with bullets, it doesnt matter how much they dodge or jump around, odds are you're probably going to hit them with a bullet or two.

They do make sense, more or less (let's just ignore the whole 'why isn't 3 bullets = 3*5P attacks?' question). The thing is, there are places that they break down.

For example, Mäx indicated that he doesn't like the 'all-or-nothing' aspect, which is a bit illogical. Theoretically, you could do something between 'spray *everywhere*' and 'drill 15 rounds into his head'.

In my thread (linked above), I mentioned that it's unsatisfying to me that you can't 'just spray' in order to hit difficult shots (i.e., compensate for range or lighting, not just dodge pool).

It's also conceptually annoying that a Wide burst can defeat armor, while a Narrow burst *can't*.

Things like that.

One more time, even with recoil, the first shot is gonna be as accurate as a single shot fired from the same gun, in real life, "spray 'n pray" and bursts are most used in dire situations where you want to be absolutelly sure that at least one bullet is in the general direction of your target. In the current rules this doesn't happen. You're better with single shots, as you don't have penalties on the attack roll. Wide bursts don't make easier to hit, they make harder to dodge, with is limiting.
But, well, this is just my opinion.

Right, agreed. I'm saying that spraying a target (an actual stationary bullseye) with a futuristic recoil-compensated gun should mean that you're more likely to not miss. This target's not dodging. No, you're not getting a nice grouping, but you're likely to get *a* bullet on target.

Well, I'm updating this topic as a feedback. We played today and, while fudging with the various rules proposals here in this topic, came to what OUR GROUP think that is a good value for the various bursts:
Short bursts give +2 dice to hit and +1 die to damage;
Long bursts give +3 dice to hit and +3 dice to damage;
Full bursts give +5 dice to hit and +5 dice to damage.

In general, you need strength 2 to fire a smg without penalty, 3 for a rifle, 4 for a lmg and 8 for an assault cannon. When your firing bursts, the same value that is used as bonus dice to damage is added to the minimum strength required to shoot without penalty so, as an example, shooting a long burst from a smg requires a strength value of 2+3 = 5, and recoil modifiers add directly to this value.

In general we are pretty satisfied with the new dinamics in combat.

@Yerameyahu - Not a big fan of your rule. It basically takes away the only disadvantages of using automatics, which are recoil and the fact that you have to choose between a high damage attack that is harder to hit, and a lower damage attack that is sure to hit. Instead you give both the guaranteed hit and a damage boost.

@Juca - Same thing. You're basically taking away all the disadvantages of automatic weapons, which are already widely regarded as the best type of weapons.

Um, why would there be a disadvantage to using automatics, beyond ammo costs?

Game balance?

Ah. That's a terrible reason. In that case, throwing rocks should be much stronger.

See throwing adept.

BLAM. Throwing adept (wacky niche build) now sniped. The point is that Shadowrun is in a genre that's intended to incorporate some level of modern technological realism. Automatic fire *is* awesome, especially with magical future-tech recoil cancellation.

Is that what trolls use for the 2072 fastball special?

"Drek, I left my throwing adept at home.."

Yes, but as the rules stand, they're already the best overall. They don't need help by stacking the full auto rules even more in their favor.

It already incorporates all kinds of recoil cancellation. And no, I'm not saying that throwing rocks should be on level with a firearm, just like melee shouldn't be either, but it is really stupid to just go "pick automatics or go away because everything else is pointless."

Edit: and if you want to go the 'super crazy high tech automatics' way, then sniper rifles should be firing about 5 miles and doing 30P with -20 AP.

Well, that's just silly. I'm only talking about the game reality, and not changing the tech at all. The RC is already there. What I am suggesting is removing the arbitrary Narrow-or-Wide mechanic, because it's not coherent. *shrug* If you want to plead game balance, that's fine, but it's not really what we're talking about at all. Neither is this about 'Automatics'. Pistols and Longarms are automatic weapons in SR4, and so are some Heavy Weapons and some Vehicle-Only guns (Gunnery).

Yeah, but getting 9 points of RC is hardly an easy feat. Actually I'm not even sure it is possible without a gyromount. Or are you still requiring RC to be factored in? If you're still requiring RC your rule seems fairly reasonable.

Right, exactly. The most common levels of RC are 2 or 5 (Short, Long bursts). If you use the Strength rule, you might get +1 or maybe +2 (big Ork, Troll), the Forbidden cyberarm gyromount is only another +1. Beyond that, we're talking mostly big vehicles, tripods, or other vehicle-mounted situations.

Okay, guess I got caught up in the first post and thought you were ignoring RC. In that case, yeah, seems fairly reasonable.

Augmented troil can get 9 RC without gyrostabilisation, I'm building one for one of my players.

Also, arm gyro has 3 RC, my rigger has one.

Right. But it's a specialized thing. Are you also using the *optional* Strength RC rule? That's another factor, because it's optional.

Wow, I'd forgotten they changed the arm gyro. Anyway, it's specialized in that it requires a cyberarm (or the full cap of an Obvious hand), and is Forbidden (Restricted Gear to start with it). The point is the same.

If you invest in a high-RC 'build', there's nothing wrong with having it. You're deadly under either ruleset.

If guns still need RC, could you explain the below?



I took that to mean that, in your example, if you had a strength of 5, you could fire a long burst from an SMG without recoil penalties.

That wasn't posted by Yera

The Strength-RC Optional Rule is in Arsenal, and it's pretty mild (Strength 6-9 is +1, IIRC).

So it wasn't. Whups.

Why would it require Restricted Gear to start with, its's only availebility 12?

I'm going to say that I like this rule. It increases the odds of beating armour, and decreases the final DV. It's pretty much what I had in mind, too, when I thought about how to house rule auto-fire.

It does make for a lot of dice to throw, though.

Yeah, that is one of the problems: if your players try to abuse it, you have to start making sure the 'extra' dice are kept separate for Edge use. Which is a pain. Clean misses are also slightly less likely (even after you Wide burst their pool to 0, you theoretically *could* roll badly in the RAW version).

Mäx, my mistake. I was thinking about that F code, but that's just a longtime house rule for my group.

Well... rerolling misses with edge and using ALL the dice could very quickly get rather excessive. So, yeah, I agree it would be best to bar them from being rerolled.

The latter is also probably very true: If you used to roll few dice with a wide burst as a poor shooter, you're now rolling quite a few all the time. A 6-8 dice security goon using a long burst could match a non-minmaxed semi-auto user easily, and even lay down some fair damage. Now granted, hopefully you won't find that many who will be able to shoot long bursts without recoil...

Just slightly OT question to go with this:

How does defending against suppressive fire actually work? Do you have to SPEND Edge to do it? Or just roll it? If you actually had to spend it then that would make 5-6 mooks firing non-compensated suppressive fire with their single IP really dangerous.

It's a Test using your Edge attribute, not spending it, right.

Even if it were spending edge, no one is forced to take the test. Base damage of the weapon usually is foaked by armor and body. otherwise just drop prone and return fire from there.

With that optional rule, any meta with a strength bonus can start with a str 10+ cyberarm with arm gyro. That's 5 points of RC right there. Throw a gv 3, personalized grip, stock, and you've got 10RC on any HV weapon. Pick something with integral RC and you're really in business. Recoilless high-velocity FA bursts. Or, you could ditch the GV and do regular recoilless FA bursts with a suppressor.

There's a reason some sams still go chrome.

Hmm.... now that... makes it suck a bit. Using it with anything other than a HMG is rather pointless, and only leads to a few boxes of damage at best.

If YOU were to design a useful Suppressive fire rule, how would you do?

I think what it needs is a penalty to all actions while being suppressed - i.e. while doing anything proactive while in anything except total cover. Basically you should have to really make use of your smartgun cam to engage the suppressing shooter. How about penalty = net hits on the attack test? A mook suppressing with a few dice gives a small penalty, while a guy 15 or more dice really keeps those mooks in the dirt. It would also make a backup shooter with few IPs useful: Get an LMG and a few points in HW, with spec, and stay back to lay fire so that the sammy can kill the mooks with impunity - or, rather, so that the mooks stay behind cover, don't follow, etc. If you want to make mooks more dangerous make penalties from several shooters stack: after all, more bullets = more potential hurt.

This is obviously in addition to the chance of taking damage, and wouldn't apply to anything that doesn't care about being hit. So vehicles, drones, or spirits with immunity wouldn't care, for example. If you want runners to be stronger allow anyone who could buy the successes to soak the base damage also not care.

To make it even stronger, make it so that everybody who doesn't at least take partial cover gets double the penalty.

And to make it stronger yet make the penalty apply to dodging, too (to other incoming fire, not the suppressive fire.)

Example scenario:

Bob the Machinegunner is a guard at a prison. He's got a nice tower with a pintle-mounted machinegun. He's othewise not very good (3s + spec + smart = 10 dice). Runners hit the compound to extract a druglord. They scale the outside fence and hop over into the secure zone between wall and fence when they trip an alarm. Lights come on, etc. etc. Bob is to make sure they don't enter and don't leave, and people are aware that runners are faster and stronger than he is. So he is ordered to suppress threats rather than engage them directly, while the rail drones come and actually kill the intruders.

Current rules: Bob opens up. The runners drop, and then drop him in their second IP.


My rules: The runners drop, but they still take an average -3 penalty to return fire. Not much, maybe, but better than before. When Bob's mate Rob opens up, too, from his tower, they now take a -6 penalty, even if the damage they are realistically going to take is low. Now they are facing at least a significant tactical obstacle. And what's more, these two 1IP guys are at least having some effect.

(The other scenario, where he doesn't suppress: Bob opens up with a wide burst. Runner goes full def for one IP. Takes (and soaks) not much more than base damage. The other runners drops him in the same round.)

It's really expensive, but when your base damage is "stick'n'shock", then you're dropping a whole bunch of mooks with suppressive fire, provided you take them by surprise.

As a side note, lower ammo expenditure for suppressive fire is one of the only benefits of FA shotguns.

AFAIK, it's only the AA-16 that can do that, as a model-specific bonus?

Saint Sithney, yes, but now they've made a significant investment in nuyen, Essence, and opportunity costs. That's fair. No one ever said that you can't specialize in RC. The point is that you have to specialize in RC. Besides, I'd say it's up to the GM for determining Strength-for-RC with cyberlimbs involved. A hand? No. A lower arm? No. A full arm? *maybe*. I'm thinking two arms are usually going to be involved, at least.

AA-16 and only with flechettes, IIRC.

As to optimising for RC, using Arsenal's weapon mod rules you can easily get RC to 9 with an arm gyro and no strength bonuses

Agreed.
Well at least per RAW one Gyromount is enough. There is no rule forbidding the stacking of two either. As for the Strength, there is always the averaging of the stats, if not only the cyberlimb is used.

Besides weapon modifications and attachments to reduce recoil, as well as the shooter's Strength (Arsenal p-163), you can also apply the shooter's Skill... maybe -1 recoil compensation per 3 skill points...
The reasoning being that skilled shooters have learned to anticipate/counteract/balance their weapon's recoil force.

That would kind of already be factored in by the fact that they have more dice in the first place.