Ah, yeah, I misread it. I missed the 'on the same target' part. I can certainly see arguments for either side, but just to play Devil's Advocate a bit, I'll use your point about the power working on the adept and not the target. Since it affects the adept, we can assume it change's the adept's voice in some way. I'd think that change would be unique to each adept, just as their voice would be unique to each adept. Thus the built up resistance is to a particular voice.

Of course, as I said, I can certainly see an argument for the resistance being to suggestion in general as well.


No problems with you here if you want to interpret it literally. It is RAW after all. I'm not so sure that it is RAI, but I totally understand wanting to limit it.

I can't help but think of this when it comes to Commanding Voice.

[img]http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/sandwich.png[/img]

That's great, especially considering 'make me a sandwich' fits well into the 5 word limit.

Edit: Limited power Commanding Voice, Must say 'sudo' first

One more for the quirky character concept page. That's two on that list that have commanding presence.

The key with cyberears I think has always been you could just DNI them to an off state, thus rendering you deaf, and thus immune to the power. Whether they're technological or not for the purpose of the ability might be able to be debated, but really, it's part of you. Illusions don't suddenly stop working because the target has cybereyes (that are turned on, to cover that base)

Illusions also don't state that they specifically stop working if rebroadcast by tech.

I guess a part of me is frustrated by shadowruns's continual nerfing and marginalizing of cyberware, so I will take and exploit any positive qualities of it at every opportunity.

Ordinarily, I wouldn't let cyberears stop Commanding Voice. Paid with Essence and all that.

But: only when they're online and transmitting directly. You could build in a Voice Analyzer program that identifies potential harmful sounds (specific vocal stresses, use of imperative form by people not on a white-list) and blanks out the last three words of such sentences. In that case it'd foil most Commanding Voice powers.

But that's the kind of protection that requires a security-savvy Arcana specialist to design.

Once again, paid with essence only means a crap when spells are involved and usually only for purposes of establishing line of sight, I don't see why it would matter A) against a non spell that works by altering the physad's voice (somehow) and why paying for something with essence would work to the characters detriment. The power doesn't work against technological means it's right in the text in black and white, paid with essence is specific instance affecting when something can be used to establish line of site and is not consistently applied.


You can rule it other ways but your A) Going right against the rules as specifically written B) basically punishing characters for cybering up rather then buying earbuds or other methods, more Magicrun.

Let's not get hysterical about MagicRun, okay?

It depends on whether Commanding Voice is a magical power that affects the listeners, or a magical power that changes the adept's voice.

Case A: magical affecting of listeners - a path from adept to listener must exist without any "mana-dead" point in it. Earbuds only protect if they shield out all outside noise. This may be impossible if the adept is loud enough, because in that case the noise could pass through the listener's skull into his ears. (IIRC, there's an adept power for shouting, and there's cyberware for it too.)
Cyberears do not protect, because they're integrated into the body's mana-field. However, if they're off, then the character cannot hear even loud noises, (because normal hearing was removed) and is therefore immune. Perhaps a Voice Recognition program can recognize Commanding Voice and switch off the ears for a second before the whole command is heard (contested Voice Recognition vs. Commanding Voice check?) In this case, cyber is actually better than earbuds.
Countermagic on the victim should be able to stop it, just like a critter power.

Case B: the Adept's voice is altered by the power, not the listener - in this case recordings of the Adept's voice would also work, and there's no reason why earbuds would cancel it. Countermagic won't protect listeners. The power works fine if you talk into a BC zone from the outside.

I personally subscribe to Case A, but I'm AFB right now.

I like Case A, myself.

I remember seeing a thread a while back, stating it'd be measured in 'thaums' or something similar. Like, 10000 thaums of energy is force 1. Ambient thaum count is background count. Something like that.

This like the milliHelen, the amount of beauty needed to launch one ship.

I decided to go looking for anything relating to essence paid objects and how they affect spells. Using search here is what i came up with as far as fourth edition was concerned.



That is the sum total of how essence works for spell casting as far as fourth edition is concerned. Everything else is in peoples on minds or holdovers from previous editions. I will now include the relevant bit from street magic.


Whether the affect is manabased or not is irrelevant, it flat doesn't work when technological means are involved. I'm fine with this for starters because it's in the rules. Secondly because people with cyberears being immune feels about right from a balance standpoint for a .25 power point power that can affect as many people as can be crowded into the sound of your voice. Thirdly I feel the game system, especially fourth edition, already favors magic users entirely too heavily considering it is stated as a game of magic and tech. People may beg to differ but at least in this case they are wrong. Furthermore, all adept powers are physical in nature, I know this is pretty hard to believe with things like elemental strike and distance strike but it's right out of the books. The adept is altering themselves in some way that alters their target, in this case perhaps whatever that evolutionary back door that commanding voice exploits doesn't seem to be present once it's passed through a piece of tech. Either way the rules are pretty black and white.

Actually, in rereading that segment, it almost sounds like the limitation on technological devices is in how the Adepts voice is projected. If the voice is amplified or broadcast by technological means.... that makes it sound like if the adept is using a bullhorn or a PA system, it doesn't work. He has to be talking normally. The wording isn't affecting the listener's gear. It's the speaker's gear it seems to be concerned with.

Except why would the power care who was holding the theoretical bullhorn?

"Jump out of the window."

Worked quite well but had a massiv problem, the young Adept using it, used it on his roommate in an quarrel.

I think wireless transmissions and loudspeakers can be compared to cameras and electronic binoculars. They're external intermediaries. Cyberears on the other hand are internal, and their closest equivalent, cybereyes, is integrated sufficiently in the aura not to interfere with spellcasting. If it's a way out, then it should also be a way in.

Also, what that paragraph mentions is devices used by the Adept to amplify and broadcast. It doesn't even say anything about the listener using devices.



It's nice that anyone who disagrees with your feelings is wrong.



Not really. Killing Hands allows the adept's hands to bypass ItNW for example, and Elemental Strike and Distance Strike are also magical enough to bypass ItNW if I'm not mistaken.

If the sound of the Voice isn't magical, then a recording should do the same thing as a live speech. If it exploits a nonmagical propery of the listener, then CV can be replicated technologically. But since technological broadcasting is explicitly forbidden, I believe the voice is magical.

Cyberears are part of your aura; they don't grant you Object Resistance against sound attacks either. They don't make you immune against Hell Hound or Barghest vocal powers. Unless they're switched off; in that case they're better than earplugs. Because if the sound is loud enough, the earplugs won't stop it echoing directly through your skull, but cyberears can simply be turned off. In that way, cyber is one of the best defenses. (All you need then is an external sound sensor plugged into your PAN; voila immunity to CV, by not having natural hearing.)

Once again adept power do not equal spell casting and even then your example isn't accurate, your attempting to turn a one time exception, that devices paid for with essence can be used by the caster as magical targeting as a blanket override for rules in another section. In essence your working very hard to turn a specific exception to overturn an unrelated specific prohibition.




So wait, Joe the adept uses Commanding Voice in a room with an open com line and gives a command. "Kill yourself" in your world because Joe himself didn't specifically use the com line it goes through? Is that really your interpretation?



It is very convenient when it's so cut and dry.




And here's where your justification isn't even internally consistant. Killing hands works against immunity to normal weapons because it says right in the powers text it does. Commanding Voice doesn't work against people listening in for the same reason, because the powers text says it doesn't.



You can believe whatever you wish but the simple fact is your trying and straining to get a version of the fluff, that overturns what's actually said in the rules. No one drills down other powers and effects to this level, this is one of the more cut and dry adept powers out there. Does your table spend a lot of time agonizing over how and when killing hands works?



The fact that the cyber eyes are part of your aura is once again irrelevant, even if they were or were not they are a technological means, they don't protect you against a barghests howl only because that particular power doesn't preclude it. Only if they are fully turned off do they run against that particular powers "weakness".

I don't think I'm going to argue this any further, I've cited my sources and explained my logic. Obviously I believe I'm right because it both fits game balance wise (in my opinion), fits the rules, and requires the least amount of logical leaps. I can make these deductions even having a character that relies on this power and can only come to the conclusion that those sticking obstinate to the incorrect interpretation do so in part out of a vested stake in there not being some limitations to this power.

No. I don't even see how you came to that conclusion.

Ok, stepping past the arguing about Commanding Voice and cyberears(I for the record always figured cybersenses gave one an advantage over magically-based illusions and methods of control like CV, at the downside of the local hacker being able to make you see a forest full of Mickey Mouse-shaped unicorns or something), quick thing Im wondering: does CV stack with things like Kinesics and so on? Or is it purely Leadership + Charisma vs their Leadship + Will? If its the latter..tbh I dont know why everyone's making it out to be such a potent power against anything but ganger mooks.

He's figuring that they are listening through the comms without even thinking it would have to be broadcasted through the comms to even reach them. That one's a two-way street, not a one-way only.

"Don't feed the elephant."

Actually what I was getting at was you seem to imply that the mechanical exemption only applies when the adept conciously uses the technological reproduction but not when other people inadvertently use the reproduction.

Further outside of the baseless mana argument if the cyber ear user's cyber ear decreases background noise or increased or decreases the volume by as little as one decibel they have "enhanced" the sound. Which brings us back to the non-existent magic argument, but I figure if one can't be bothered with the source amterial or rules there's not much point to furthering the discussion as we literally have no common ground to find.

To the former I believe it does, even if it is only the latter is still a pretty awesome power for someone with a decent charisma and even a few points in leadership and leadership is something most would presumably not have.

So cybereyes that are zoomed in or otherwise "enhancing" a mage's vision also impair spellcasting, yes?

@Lurker: Yes, we have no common ground it seems. Rather than bicker and argue further about who killed who, let's not derail the original topic further.

Back on topic.
Outside of using CV to make people injure themselves, what other useful applications are there?

Lurker already dealt with that. Spellcasting and cybereyes is a specific rules exception. Lurker does not agree with expanding that specific rule into a general rule so things like commanding voice work on cyberear people when if they had just gone with earbuds they would be safe.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/11/2/

Nice

There's always the old "Break your weapons, then surrender," for pacifists.
...or the less friendly "fuck yourself with your gun."

As to the idea of cyberears making you immune to commanding voice, that's a no. Full cyberlimb replacement doesn't make you an object.
What does work is a cheap little thing called Select Sound Filter, though you'd either need it on hyper-paranoid "don't talk to stranger" settings, or you'd need to have a sample of the adept's voice (from their first command,) and take a simple action to Send a Command to a Linked Device.

The idea isn't that it makes you an object. It is base don the text of the power that says the voice can't go through electronics. The ears are in fact electronics. Though some want to use the you paid essence with it so it is natural not electronic argument, some don't. I'm amused that simple earbuds that I put on every character will stop this cold.

And so are cybereyes.

And cyberarms work for touch-spells.

I'm afb but do they? And once again the rules of the power (NOT SPELL) say electronics don't work. Nothing in the fluff or the rules for 4th say that just because something is cyber and paid with essence means it stops being something else.

Paging Dr. Toturi.

Who?

In any case, I'll invoke Occam's Razor.

So you agree with me? Because that would be Occam's Razor. That it works as it's written in the book.

By that logic a mage with cybereyes couldn't cast a spell.

They can.

Ergo, someone with cyberears can be affected.

Ah, Occam's Razor. Whoever can state their case in the fewest words, while restating their opponent's case in the most words wins.

Edit: That said, Lurker is right. Occam's Razor says that he is right. Text says tech negates it, cyberears are tech, end.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious in both cases that what is intended by the rules it to limit the magic user's ability to extend the range of their power to infinity. If you choose to play that the technology is magical kryptonite, Lurker, that's up to you, but I wouldn't expect other people to interpret the rules that way.

"Pluck out your eyes."

Not only will they hurt themselves, but dropping everything they are carrying is implied.

"Give me your admin password"

"press emergency shut down button"

"Strip, shirt first"

"pay me fifty thousand more"

"All cyberware functions the same to magic"

I've got 7 words. I could add "implanted" to be more specific, and have 8.

"That it works as it's written in the book."

You've got 9.

Chuck Norris.
There's two. I win!

For some good non-lethal uses I'd recommend that episode in Season 2 of Supernatural, with the demon-blood psychic kid who could make people do what he wanted. Like give him their coffee. Or Impala.

Also some other things that would be interesting would be "Tell Security/LS/KE to stand down." or something to that effect, if used on some one in a position of authority. As soon as they give the order, drop them with narcojet or cast a Silence Spell or something so they can't undo it.

"Let me through." would work for alot of fun stuff. Although the doorman it is used on would be irked in the next instant...

"Make me a sammich" should always be in constant use of this power, even if the would-be maker only gets to the point of taking out the bread. Oh, and has anybody offered this- "Don't taze me, bro!"

Draco is eating paint chips. - 5 Words.

You know what our two statements have in common? Neither of them are actually in the books and neither of them are actually true. I didn't put mine in quotes as I'm not actually quoting soemthing. I can be very inaccurate in short sentences, it doesn't change it being innacurate

At this point I'm seriously hoping I'm being trolled as otherwise some folks are having less difference of opinion and more setting/rules understanding or reading comprehension problems.

I have searched pretty extensively through the books and previous in this thread I have sited my finding a few posts back. If there was a rule that for spells or for magic cyberware counting as the exact same as a body it is no longer present in 4th edition as of SR4A. There is a specific exception in the form of cybereyes for spell targeting but "Physical cyber- or bioenhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets" that is the one specific mention of this often sited truism.

Once again, the specific power has a weakness when amplified or broadcast by technological means a cyberware may or may not be a part of someone from a essence standpoint but it is surely technological means. To state otherwise requires a special level of doublethink. The only possible logical hair splitting is if they meant literal amplification and literal broadcast and transmission or not and whether the adept has to be a party to it, hence my commentary about an open com line above it.

So in short, even if you believe magic works a certain exact way and believe the power should work that way, that's not what the book says. You can rule that the power's specific limitation doesn't apply but then all specific limitations should not apply.

You can go ahead and continue to believe your interpretation, I don't really care.

The only instance where cyberware is treated differently than the flesh it is implanted in is the Heal spell, which specifically calls it out (well, actually it says "Essence loss"), but everyone knows WHY it is that way.

Oh, and by the way,



Ad hominem.

Is there a logical fallacy for not having any actual backing? Once again i'm not arguing the difference between cyberware and flesh. READ THE DAMN BOOK.

By RAW, any technoligocal link between the initiator of commanding voice and its target blocks the signal. That is black and white on the page.

There are two problems with that regarding cyberears.
1) they are part of the target, in the same way that a cyberarm is part of a person rules-wise, so they are not between the adept and the target.
2) the statement in question concerns itself with limiting the means of propagation, not what kind of targets could be affected.

Broadcast and amplified has a specific meaning and a specific function. They exist to extend range.
There is a rules-parallel in this regarding Line of Sight, and what constitutes a true image.

It really doesn't take much to understand this less literal interpretation of the text.

I'd like to see the 10 earbud that has absolutely no sound leakage around it. Just saying. Whether or not the earbuds or tech or anything allows the power to work amped through like you gentlement postulate, earbuds should still allow the target to be affected as they do not completely cut off sound.

EDIT: Maybe if the Adept in question whispered the command to them...

Earbuds may leak sound, but that leaked sound will be modified as to volume and transmitted frequencies, because of the material in the buds and because of the shapes of the gaps around the earbuds. Maybe not stop the attack, but provide a bonus to the resistance test.

Hi i thought i'd come back to this briefly. As far back as I can remember there's been a distinction between physical adept powers and spells. This is touched on briefly in the SR4A core book, all adept powers are physical effects, the cyerears vs eyes vs targeting thing isn't even an accurate comparison, one applies solely to cybereyes and solely to spell targeting, Basically by the interpretation you suggest the parallel really isn't that strong.

Now moving on from the "a wizard did it" argument so to speak while I will concede that the limitation was intended to keep people from amplifying or rebroadcast the effect, but in light of it being a physical power and that limitation. Therefore I have to come up with why it doesn't work in that regard and then use that going forward to determine when the power does and does not work. Within that context I can only figure that the power and the adepts skill puts a tone on the adepts voice that demands respect and obedience, a subtext that mechanical reproduction just looses.

As a final thought, Street Magic is a terribly edited book and it looks like a lot of the stuff received no playtesting at all this is the book that gave us possesion traditions, guardian spirits, two types of mind control and a host of other stuff that signifigantly diverges from the mainbook in powerlevel. Is anyone suprised the adept powers are the same?