Quick question: is using improved invisibility to cheat a camera sensor really hard?

Explanation:
[page 208 SR4A rule book]
Physical illusions are effective against technological systems, assuming the caster achieves enough hits to meet the Object Resistance threshold.

Consulting page 183, a typical camera sensor should be about 4 object resistance, some might even argue that more, but let's stick to 4 for now.

Meaning: you need to have 4 hits on the improved invisibility spell test.
You also need it to be force 4 spell since force limits hits.

I guess the more powerful magicians can do it in their sleep, while drunk. But for a starting shadowrunner with magic 5 and spellcasting of 3-4, (8-9 DP) getting 4 hits would be considered pretty lucky, no?

What I'm trying to say is: I thought doing improved invisibility is a rather easy trick to bypass security cameras, but after reading the book, I guess it's something for the more powerful characters.

And on a related note: should the caster know how good the spell went? Can they judge if it's enough to bypass that camera or should they find out by seeing the security guys running toward them?

nobody wants an I-WIN-Button in a game.

As a GM I completely agree

Consulting page 183, a "Sensor" is explicitly listed as OR 3.

Yep, the threshold is 3 to fool sensors and cameras and such. So 3 hits on Improved Invisibility make you not appear on recordings at all (since there is no opposed test).

Bye
Thanee

I've always played my mages to where they know how much power they want to drop into a spell, (they know the force), and usually assume they're doing as well as they tried to do.

"Hey Jack! Can you see me through your video-stream? No? Awesome, lets roll guys."

Very cheesy, but very good tactic. Haha

Why is that cheesy!?

Bye
Thanee

Thanks everybody, that explains it. for some reason I missed the table that said sensors have 3 resistance. Thanks for your help!

If you really insist on casting it at low Force, throw some Edge at it.






-k

I've been looking around SR4a for the appropriate table and I do see the object resistance table on pg. 183, but I don't see sensors explicitly stated. In fact I only see object resistances of 1,2,4, and 6+. Could someone explain where the senor object resistance is hiding?

SR4 had 1,2,3,4+ and SR4A raised that to 1,2,4,6+

but then it's not on pg. 183. The object resistance table is on pg. 183 of SR4a, but is on pg. 174 of SR4. Additionally Rotbart said "explicitly" and it is not explicit at all as in the word sensor does not exist on pg. 183.

Hence my confusion.

Odd.....

My PDF copy has it in the third category of the Object Resistance Table:


Then again, it also lists the thresholds as 1, 2, 3 and 5+

I hate multiple versions.....

Ok well for whatever version I have Advanced Plastics, Alloys, and Electronic Equipment are OR 4, so Sensors are OR 4 in my version it seems.

OR got pumped up with SR4A

Hmm... my SR4A copies (all three versions, regular, limited, PDF) have the same OR table, which lists 1, 2, 3, 5+ for thresholds and has sensors in the 3 category.

This same table is also in the SR4A changes document.


@mmmkay: What version of the book do you have? Is it the english book, or a translation?

Bye
Thanee

That was the pre-print Version which got discussed in great lenghts here. Which lead to some changes.

I would know because I made the point there that Sensors should get explicitly listed as one rating or another.

And it should have been updated by whom ever you purchased it from.

Sensors & Cameras have OR 3 but Drones have OR 5(at Least in the German SR4A Edition) !

Hough!
Medicineman

And it doesn't matter — their Sensors are fooled.

That was the whole point of getting Sensors listed explicitly — to kill the inane discussions about how a drone's sensors are better than fixed sensors to spot magical intruders, or why people don't simply glue commlinks, which also rate as max OR, to walls and poles.

Exactly. One should not forget, that the table has multiple purposes. Affecting a drone with a spell, that transforms it into something else, for example, would have the OR 5 threshold. But becoming invisible to the drone's sensors uses the OR 3 threshold.

Bye
Thanee

Which only matters if your trying to use direct combat spells to destroy it or affecting it with some manipulation spell.

mmm, why are you trying to beat the OR on sensors on a drone, any ways? shouldnt the test be sensor + clearsoft?

Because...

"Physical illusions are effective against technological systems, assuming the caster achieves enough hits to meet the Object Resistance threshold."

...and...

"... non-living devices do not get a resistance test."

Bye
Thanee

This seems like a contradictory rule then, imo. At my table, if it ever came up, i'd think i'd go with the sensor detecting rules, for drones (p. 162 SR4), and probably apply a dicepool monitor for net hits on the test for drones. I always understood that line to mean something like a monitor that someone is watching.

Wait, what? It's entirely straightforward: you beat the technological sensors with the spell. Doesn't matter if they're being watched by no one, an agent, a person, an AI, a Pilot…

What in the rule is contradictory, if the caster gets 3+ success on improved invisibility the drones camera doesn't detect the target of the spell at all.
Ofcource that isn't very usefull for hiding from a drone, all of it's other sensor are after all unaffected.

SR4A was going to be 1, 2, 4, 6+, and the first pdf version was that way, but there was a public outcry and it was changed back before it hit print.

crybabies and chicken imho. why should a mage be able to do everything ever?

Well the big problem is that OR affects all illusion spells and OR 4 for cameras prettty much makes such fluff tables as special effect wizards pretty much unable to do their job.

That wasn't just OR. It was the standard Threshold progression, for everything.

Which was too much. Especially if you use Perception RAW.

All of what other sensors? The drone can still hear the mage yes, but it can't see the mage, because any sensor that allows it to see the mage is a sensor and thus affected by the spell.

Invisibility only works against visual senses, in the case of a drone that would be any cameras it has.
If it has for an example a radar sensor, then the spell does the mage jack shit.

And the same is true for a character, independent of the outcome of his resistance test.

That's the thing about monosensory illusions — they can be sidestepped. OR or resistance doesn't factor in there.

I feel this post is extremely important to the OP, if you didn't know Shon you can use edge on your spellcasting test which will remove the Force limit of the spell. if you are having trouble casting higher force spells this rule may be of use to you for important tests.

Improved Invisibility defeats visual perception. Runners up: Ruthenium polymer.
Stealth defeats ultrasound/hearing.
Scent masking cigarettes defeat smell-based perception.
False Impression defeats astral perception. Runners up: masking/flexible signature/astral chameleon.
Thermal damping defeats Infrared perception.

Then nothing defeats radar/UWB and nothing defeats rain (other than a phantasm). Is this by design? I mean I suppose a mage could design their own spell, but I feel like this was done on purpose.

There is a spell that defeats Radar by degrading its rating, once the Radar is degraded to 0, then it no longer works... this will be difficult, yes, but still possible to utilize.

Cannot remember the name of the spell, as I am away from my books currently.

Doesn't it basically just emulate a jammer?

You're not exactly "hiding" your presence from the radar, though. They'll know SOMEONE is jamming their signal, they just won't know exactly where from.

I think the only methods of hiding from radar in SR is vehicle Signature Masking from Arsenal, and/or the Infiltration skill hiding among a lot of radar-reflective clutter.



-k

I guess chaos/chaff/sense removal (radar) work, but I figured whoever (or whatever agent) is interpreting the signal would observe that there is something going haywire with the radar sensor which doesn't make it the most useful thing for infiltration.

The same goes for jamming. You can jam radar signals, but if anyone is paying attention I figured that it would be obvious that the sensor is being jammed.

Can anyone say if my interpretation of those spells/jamming is right?

Edit: Apparently KarmaInferno agrees.

I'm not sure that False Impression actually 'defeats' Astral Perception. It's a little vague, but the text seems to give it a very limited ability to alter things. Useful, yes.

The only problem you do have is background ratings of 1 and 2 are not uncommon as per Street Magic. Just because your force 4 or 5 spell gets the minimum number of required successes does not mean it will continue to work in a facility with cameras.

Star Wars D6 handled it nicely : the jammer's rating was added to any sensor roll to detect there was something going on, but substracted from a roll to identify what and where exactly.

That's like my hearing. I can hear even exceedingly quiet sounds, but I'll have no clue where it is coming from, and have about an 80% chance of thinking it is from the complete opposite direction.

Edit: To add some relevance, that sounds like about how it would work in SR too, though less specifically stated. After all, if you suddenly go 'blind' because someone is jamming your UWBR, you'll know something is wrong, but you'll have no idea what is causing it.