I'm looking for the best way for a mundane-non cyber character to be able to run/join a level 4 tac net requiring at least 8 sensors. I know I'll probably end up going with a mounted sensor platform (size of a lunch box) the question is what to put in it. Any help would be appreciated.

Hmm. Well, to start, let's go with the visual aspect. You can get some glassess (or goggles, depending on style, etc) and mount them with a camera (1st channel), with low light (2nd channel) and thermographic (3rd channel), plus a nifty zoom feature in Image Magnification (4th channel). Then you can add a set of earbuds linked to a microphone and you now have audio (5th channel). Now say you get a small sensor package and strap it to your arm. In this package you could include, for example, a motion sensor and a radio signal scanner (6th and 7th channels). On your other arm, strap on an Active sonar system (channel .

No reason to get a lunchbox. Just get lots of little package. I think I use about 3-4 handhelds, but you can use the mini (not micro or tag, typically). Stick them all over your body.

Also, you can always wear a simrig underneath your hat/helmet, that gives you 5 channels (audio, visual, olfactory, tactile, taste) and if you have low-light, thermographic, and vision mag in some glasses? Boom, set.

Smartlink adds another channel. You can also get Ultrasound and Ultrawide band radar for another two channels.

Aberrant has the right idea, but it is even easier.

Glasses/goggles/contacts with image link (1), Low Light (2), thermographic (3), Smartlink (4), and Vision Enhancement (5).
Earbuds (6) with Hearing Enhancement (7) and Select Sound Filter (

Channels are so stupidly easy to obtain they aren't an actual limitation on TacNet.

I would not take select sound filter as another channel, I'm also fairly iffy on smartlink and especially vision enhancement although I think their more book solid rules wise.*

Personally after some of the previous discussions I think the best way to engineer such a monstrosity would be to mount it on a gyromount harness. Not subtle by any means but neither is having like 8 sensors hanging off your body.

*Before anyone gets too bent out of shape, my opinion does matter somewhat as I will likely be the OP's GM.

You'll want way more than the *minimum*, because only some are relevant ('count') some of the time.

Definitely do the simrig, which is really just trodes, which you should have anyway.

Sensors can be subtle. Mini is coin-sized, and handheld isn't outlandish to wear in 2070, the age of ubiquitous information and surveillance. Get doubles of everything and have one set front and back.

Sorry, meant spacial recognizers, not select sound filters.

And I can see maybe not thinking vision enhancement counts, as the list include things that change your vision as opposed to simply improve what you already have. Smartlink though is listed as a specific example. It is however an improvement over normal vision, just as all the others are. Throw in vision magnification instead, and you're back up to 7 (with hearing enhancement not counting). Grab a random sensor of your choice and stick it in your pocket or attach it to your commlink or whatever. Bam, back up to 8. Like I said, sensor channels are absurdly easy to get.

And if you have 8 sensors, then each is going to be small enough to fit on an RFID, which means that we're talking hair widths for size. You could fit a hundred of them in your pocket and look like you have a couple of coins (which is to say, basically not noticeable).

No, like I said, RFID (tags) aren't a real option. They have specific limitations, including limited Rating (I know, but why bother having crappy sensors?) and limited functionality (simple and/or intermittent reporting, etc.). Coins are small enough… it could mean dimes.

An RFID sized sensor is not an RFID tag, kind of like a vehicle sized sensor is not a vehicle. You could easily stick an olfactory function into an RFID sized sensor and get the sensor channel.

I am reasonably certain that the inclusion of smartlink as a cybernetic sensory enhancement is entirely a copy and pasting error. I cannot see a targeting retiicle and ammo count as constituting another channel, certainly useful information and definitely helpful for automatically tracking who is plugged. But something akin to thermo or lowlight or WBR? Not so much.

My other issue with microsized scanners is a practical one, if such scanners were available that small corporations would bomb their facilities with them, therefore making shadowrunning impossible outside the barrens, so i'm really looking out for the setting consistency you see.

Edit addendum: Aberrant raises a good point.

I'm fairly certain that the major restriction for mico-sensors is their pitiful signal of, what, 0?

And yeah, I was iffy on Vision Magnification AND Smartlink, but the example in Unwired specifically used both. Also, I can indeed see how Smartlink could be useful however. Knowing how much ammo your teammate has, where they are pointing, when they are firing, and the condition of their weapon is pretty useful.

I would include a target designator as part of the standard rig.

Pardon me for butting in, but Im curious: why the effort for a tacnet at all? What is it that's so useful.

remember, that drones never can participate in a rating 4 tacnet, as their maximum sensor rating is 6.

on the smartlink issue I would put forward that having a realtime indication of where every member of the team is pointing their weapon could be handy from a tacnet point of view especialy with things like friendly fire and projected detonation radi.


but thats just my interpratation

Your answer can be found on Unwired pg 126

As for what applies?

In order to get Tacnet bonuses you must
A. have the software,
B. have as many sensor channels available as 2x Tacnet soft rating and
C. have at least one other Tacnet equipped ally 'seeing' the same situation as you.
As you can see, this means that having a tacnet up and running is awfully nice to have.

@Makki: Drones can be PART of a tacnet 4. Just as sensor channels, not actual participants

A Simrig's 'touch' sensor channel isnt applicable in most combat situations. The key is to have sensor channels that apply!

Can somebody help me understand? How does sensor rating influence/limit the tacnet operation?

I'm happy to report the first tryout of my simplified tacnet house rule last sunday evening.

The rule:
0) Participation requires at least a vision device with image link and smartlink.
1) Anyone on the TacNet gains the most favorable visibility towards stuff that anyone in the TacNet has on that stuff. For example: Joe is talking to the bank robber, and Pete is behind the wall. Pete wants to shoot the bank robber through the wall. Since Joe has normal visibility on the bank robber, Pete doesn't have to take -6 to hit due to visibility.
2) If there are at least two different viewpoints on a target, the TacNet gives you a +2 bonus against the target. For example: Joe and Pete are walking around and have a GTS Tower drone flying around. When dealing with enemies the GTS Tower can see too, they get a +2 for having additional viewpoints. When they shoot at something the GTS Tower can't see, they don't get the bonus.
3) A TacNet shares information about ammo status, biomonitors and odd sensors about environmental conditions in an efficient manner. Anything one of the participants can see, he can point out to all participants with a Free Action. For example: Joe is the only one to succeed at Perception to spot the sniper. He spends a Free Action to point him out on the TacNet, and not Sally and Pete can see him too, without having to make new checks.

I found it easy to apply; it cuts away lots of calculations to see how high situational bonuses would be. It also removes the odd effect where adding a new member with less sensor channels reduced the TacNet's quality for everyone else.

Not true. It says that a drone supplies sensor channels equal to its sensor rating. It doesn't say that it can't also include other sensors (like a camera for vision, equipped with several vision enhancements such as low light and thermal).

Edit: Oh, and I really like Ascalphus' version. No more having to count sensor channels and people without enough sensors being randomly excluded. (Because lets face it, if you have the required number of people/channels to get the thing to work, anyone else should be able to connect to the net and claim the bonus even if they aren't supplying tons of channels.)

Karoline, I'm not sure that's correct. How is an RFID sensor package not a sensor tag? Your counterexample seems irrelevant. The text on p333 seems to very clearly say that all RFID sensor packages *are* sensor tags, and function as described on p329.

Aberrant, I wouldn't say Signal 0 is any kind of restriction. If anything, you'd probably turn wireless off and use skinlink in the first place. In addition, one can presumably increase Signal by up to +2 using the standard electronics rules.

I agree that the Drone/TacNet rule is *either* use the shorthand 'Sensor rating' and ignore relevant sensors, *or* use the detailed sensor setup. This is exactly the same way drones can either use the shorthand 'Sensor rating' for all sensor-related tests, or use the relevant sensor(s) for those tests.

IRCC the only way to improve the sensors on a drone/vehicle is to replace the individual sensors.

Also, where does it state that a drone does not qualify as a tacsoft member (assuming they have the tacnet software)?

they, do. But they can't provide 8 channels, as the limit for their sensor value is 6. It's a stupid rule, but which isn't?

Let's not forget that a smartlink often includes a camera on the weapon, for those moments when you want to look through your gun around a corner. And even when it doesn't, knowing where your team is ammo wise is very important for organizing a team attack, you don't put the guy low on ammo in the position to watch your back as you go charging in.

That rule is not existent (though most sensors max out at 6). I'm not going to find and rehash it (the thread is probably over a year old now) but the basic rules for drones is that to get the sensor rating you may do it shorthand and just average the ratings of the sensors with ratings. But you don't have to.


If you choose to replace the sensor package with a rating 6 camera, thermal, lowlight, ultrasound, laser range finder, you now have 5 sensors but the average sensor rating is 6 cause the camera is the only sensor with a rating. Space constraints may limit what you can do though.

Eh, TacNet 3 is a heck of a lot easier to maintain and only one die less.




-k

Yeah, but go read the actual description there. "Tags are programmed to transmit small amounts of data: [examples]" Nowhere in there does it list any sort of sensors, and yet, sensors is exactly what we're talking about. They're basically saying 'Look, here is what an RFID is usually used for', and then they're saying 'but you can also get a sensor out of it'. It never says that the sensor doesn't operate exactly like a sensor on any other device would.

Well, actually, it says that any sensors on a device are limited in range by its signal, which means that a camera on an RFID could only see a few meters, odd as it seems.

And yet, it fails to say that.

I'm sorry but I disagree a drone can commit channels just as a person can. A camera with multiple optical mods can give more then one channel in one item much like a set of goggles can.

Metahuman
from goggles
1- Lowlight
2- Thermo
3- smartlink
4- ultrasound
From simrig
5- natural vision
6- natural sound
from earbuds
7- enhanced audio (enhancement)
from additional sensor pack
8- motion sensor

Drone Assuming a LEBD-1 (combat functional but not silly)
Sensor package 6 made up as follows
Pack 1 Camera modded to give channels
1- normal visual
2- lowlight
3- thermo
4- smartlink
Pack 2 Camera Modded as above but not counting as additioal channels but does give better coverage of data
Pack 3 Motion sensor giving channel
5- motion sensor
Pack 4 Motion sensor doenst add channel but adds better coverage
Pack 5 directional microphone modded to give channels
6- normal sound
7- enhanced audio (enhancement)
Pack 6 Laser range finder giving channel
8- range finder (this is the only one that could be argured against but from a logical point of view having a additional calulation of distance for ranged attacks and judging blast radi it makes sense)

As I hope you can see I have stuck with a sensor load out similar to the one given in Arsenal for sensor packages on vehicles and drones.


As you can see both have the ability to give 8 channels without much difficulty but some modification.

Karoline, as I said, the tags are limited to single Rating 1 sensors; hardly ideal for actual use. It's none of my business if you want to ignore the fluff, either, but it really makes zero difference; you could simply use a micro-package instead, for exactly the same effect.

Neither are cameras limited by the signal of things they're connected to. That's ridiculous.

It's possible that a deliberately restrictive reading of the drone/sensor/TacNet rules could lead to the conclusion that drones absolutely can contribute only generic channels equal to their Sensor rating (again, a shorthand average of the *actual* sensors they carry), but that's both unreasonable and unnecessary. Clearly, drones can either use individual sensors *or* their simplified Sensor value in any circumstances that sensors are necessary. In fact, there are several situations where the shorthand Sensor value is illogical or unsatisfying; for example, some smaller drones (e.g., the Dragonfly HK?) simply don't have the standard range of sensors, and literally cannot make 'generic' Sensor tests.

Either way, there's no reason to (a) give drones 'generic' channels when their actual sensors might not even be TacNet relevant, nor (b) preclude drones from having the *many* relevant sensor channels that they could (and obviously should) have re: TacNets.

Is a motion sensor on a moving object really all that useful?

I would say knowing where my team is ammo wise is about as useful as a map or other iinformative items which can be plugged into tacnets. Useful surely, but not an entirely new avenue of information.

Not while it's moving, not really. Why?

Including smartlinks as a TacNet channel also functionally ties smartguns and thus their own small sensor packages into the TacNet. Every smartgun system includes a camera and range finder which will now be feeding data to the TacNet. Having the exact distance to everything the smartgun points at is certainly useful data.

I don't seem to be able to find the line that says 'RFID sensors are limited to rating 1, but maybe that is something they added in 4A. I see mention in the description of RFIDs that they have a signal of 1, but as I said, maybe that got changed.


I'm just telling you what the rule's say, and the rules say that the signal rating provided in the chart is the limit of the range of the sensors on it with specific exceptions, and a camera does not say it is a specific exception.

Signal 0, actually.

Camera range simply isn't (can't be) Signal-based. It's impossible. The book actually gives 'non-specific' exceptions, in that it vaguely mentions that exceptions exist. I see what you're saying, but I never deliberately interpret rules in the way that makes the game unplayable.

depending on how you see it working then yes or no,

bits from the book are


Motion Sensor: This sensor uses a mix of ultrasound and lowpower
infrared to detect motion and drastic changes in the ambient
temperature. See p. 261.

Motion sensors pick up on movement. They transmit an ultrasonic
field, and react to changes in that field when anything enters
it. Intruders may detect the ultrasonic field by using an ultrasound
sensor set to passive mode within 5 meters. Defeating a motion sensor
requires that characters move very slowly through the field, one halfmeter
per Combat Turn, and succeeding in an Infiltration + Agility
(3) Test. Characters amped for speed may find it difficult to maneuver
in this way; apply a negative dice pool modifier equal to their extra
Initiative Passes.

Basically reads to me as a nice way to stop yourself getting sneaked up on, for a metahuman mounting it on your back gives you eyes in the back of your head and from a drone its a normal loadout for a sensor suite same as any vehicle

Dubious. A motion sensor attached to a moving person would be going off all the time, as the environment is in constant motion relative to the sensor.

I think the point of motion sensors was to attach them to cameras, walls, doors etcetera. Perhaps to parked cars. Not every sensor was meant to be PC-mounted.

They are standard loadout in all/almost drone and vehicle sensor suites as per arsenal.

Granted its a fair point that the sensor moving will effect results but you would assume they must have a real use otherwise they wouldnt be on so many things. If you dont like them though swop them for something else seems easy enough with a custom sensor setup

It makes sense in vehicles. For theft prevention, and to measure your own speed. Although there are some serious issues with those vehicle sensors; a vehicle isn't supposed to be able to auto-pilot without at least five sensors, but most drones don't go beyond 3.

There are more then a few holes in the vehicle and drone rules this is true. I do think though that a motion sensor to a person can be of use if treated right, its not a ultra sense as such but can give warnings for things unseen

emphasis mine

Motion sensors do make sense on vehicles, because vehicles are frequently immobile. LEBDs and other flyers, maybe not.

If I'm using my car its only immobile when i'm at the lights or getting out. during those brief moments a motion sensor does very little. I cant believe they would add two sensons into the only explination of what is normal that are of no use whe in motion.

… or parked. What's the problem? Motion sensors also monitor temperature changes; are you saying that's functional while on the highway?

look I'm not getting into a conceptual argument over something not very clearly defined. You have one impression I have another doesnt matter who is right or who is wrong because its not been defined by the writers.

I think the game is very clear about what the Motion Sensor unit does. It not like it matters if it works in motion or not, because that sensor is only used for counter-infiltration in the first place.