I think I was sort of with Rotbart on this one. They're already reducing a stat, and if I'm understanding right it's a reduction of the racial maximum, as opposed to just a karma hit.

The character is obviously in a compramised situation, and a GM always has the power to say a limb just falls off, you'll need a new one.

But there isn't anything in the book indicating that you have to pay any price beyond the karma.

This is my take. I honestly think losing a point of Edge permanently is already pretty harsh. Anything more than that is really overkill if you ask me.

It's not that harsh: you're escaping *death*.

And impacting your ability to succeed at the improbable or dodge death again later.

Unless the gimp is bad enough to decide to toss the sheet. At which point you didn't.

I was referring to burning Edge.

No, it's "just" a karma hit... with SR4A attribute costs, this hurts. A lot.

I think what they are saying is that sometimes it might be a catch-22. Your character survived but adding on extra narsty to the situation can mean that your character concept gets toasted along the way. For example If I was a magician who burned edge for a hand of god and woke up with a bunch of second hand ware that was implanted to "save my life" I might be pretty upset.

"So what? I burned edge, lost a stat point there, and then I lost 3 essence and now my magic is down to 2? Well, I have a perfect way to fix this situation," *eats gun*.

It's more like you're playing a game with him to avoid dying.

Particularly to the characters who already have a high edge attribute. Buying a 7 back is somewhat more expensive than buying back up to a 2 or 3. Lesson is if you have high edge use it to not die in the first place.

It is just a Karma hit. And if you had 7 Edge, exactly: why the hell did you die?

Losing XP is the normal, standard penalty for dying in RPGs. A close second is losing cash (e.g., requiring a cyberlimb, surgery, new ID, whatever).

Playing a character that prides himself in avoiding cyberware as much as possible... having a HoG moment that involved requiring cyberware to save his life would be rather ground shattering for him. Probably more so than the near death experience.

And that's great drama. Besides, that's a dumb point of pride.

Or, the GM could require something else: there's no rule that says 'gain one cyberlimb', as I already said (examples: surgery, new IDs…).

Pfff. It's only dumb if it's causing him to be inferior, which it isn't.

There's a strategic value to bio over cyber (stealthy stealthy).

Cyberlimbs would be stat loss, possibly with permanent side effects.

Only if you have natural stats that exceed 3 for the limb. Could be a boon for that weakling hacker with 1 str and 1 agi.

But yeah. Take a 9 agility gunbunny and have him lose one of his arms? Ouch. You're looking at a 6 agi loss on his shooting arms.

No. You lose Essence and potentially magic – and magic limit as well.
While the first one can be cured by time and money, the second can only be partially cured with karma, since the last one is permanent.

By SR4A/Augmentation, if you remove the cyberware then undergo the genetic restoration therapy, you can get the lost Essence and maximum magic back. You still need to buy the lost magic points with karma and the porcedure is long and expensive, but at least it is possible.

And in SR3 you could go the Geas route to offset the Essence/Magic loss due to cyberware.

"Magic/Resonance points lost are never returned and reductions to the maximum Magic/Resonance attribute remain in effect."

There are workarounds, as you say. What it really comes down to is that hitting the mage with something that'll mess him over as badly as cyber/bio would is just being mean, unless that's what they want to happen. There are plenty of other options out there in SM that could be just as full of RP potential - geasa for one, application of a focus addiction if it's appropriate to the situation, maybe even waking up with a level of cursed, allowing for more chance in the future of interesting magical glitches...

Sorry, I missed the part about the reductions to the maximum.

Even reductions to the maxima of Magic and Resonance can be overcome, for Magic with Initiation, and for Resonance with Submersion. Yes, these also cost.

Those dont really count though. Initiation levels wont replace the lost in "potential" as it where. Its just cost to get you back to you where, but you could never get to what you could have been.

I don't understand. Am I wrong in seeing the progressions as:

Didn't get nuked:

- has Stat max of X
- adds one with Inititation/Submersion, can get to Stat X+1
- add one till desired level reached

Did get nuked:

- has Stat max of X
- gets nuked to Stat max of X-1
- adds two with Initiation/Submersion, can get to Stat X+1
- add one till desired level is reached

As I say, this would be costly, and may not happen in the timeframe of a particular campaign, but still possible.

There's a hard cap on how many initiations one can take, IIRC. Dropping max Magic from 6 to 5 means the max allowable grades just dropped by...I think two.

The 20th Anniversary Core Rules has this to say: "A character’s initiate grade cannot exceed her Magic attribute. If a character’s Magic is reduced below her initiate grade, she loses that level of initiation and the metamagic she gained with it."

I suppose you could say that since Initiating lets you bump your magic up 1 that there is no theoretical cap on it, but it seems pretty clear that they intend you to be able to initiate up to six times.

That's what it was.

The only two ways I can see to get back the "potential" as I put it is to contact a free spirit with both the Drain Energy and Endowment powers, then make a deal with it so you can drain essence from people up to 1.5 your max. So if you were knocked down to 4 via "Hand of Godded Ware" you could get back up to 6. The other alternative is to get infected and get the drain essence power yourself.

No, that rule is not there to put a cap on initiation - rather, it is there to limit abuses, and to make sure that ultra-high initiates also has ultra-high magic. There are metamagic and other abilities that benefit from high grades, and getting JUST the grades is relatively cheap. Also, it kinda makes sense from a role-playing point of view - initiation is about discovering the great secrets of magic, and to discover those, you also need access to great skill with magic.

Exactly.

So, at Magic X, one can Initiate X times. But this also allows an increase in the Magic to 2X. Which then allows further Initiation to grade 2X. And so on. Of course, this takes a great deal of time and Karma.

Again, I think you're fixating, guys. In situations where losing a limb (btw, cloned limbs are zero penalty/loss in SR4) would be unduly punitive, the GM *wouldn't* request or require it. Obviously.

Instead, and again, there are options like surgery/long recuperation, whatever. Don't waste time pointing out that the solution for A doesn't work with B.

There is no cap on How many times you can intitate in SR4A, as has been pointed out above... Mages (and Technomancers) have unlimited Potential at a heavily increasing cost over time...

The Only limit is that you may never have more initiations than your Magic Attribute... so...

Raise Magic to Cap, then Initiate (Raises Cap)... Rinse and Repeat... Does this get expensive... Yes, You better believe it does...

I think burning edge makes it easier to keep your character alive... I think that's probably the point... So yeah, I reckon if players don't want their characters to die, then they'll burn edge, and buy back the stat when they can. Assuming they're not completely incompetent, they will probably be able to keep at least a single edge point up indefinitely so in answer to your original question, yeah, players don't really die now unless they want to.

Whether that's a good thing or bad thing is completely subjective, I'm sure your GM will allow you to houserule out that option if your crew prefers a more lethal, unforgiving game

In case you didn't read the thread, what we've found is that a lot of GMs put the nails on their PCs coffins by throwing on other creative disadvantages along with the lost edge, such that the player decides it isn't worth in any more.

I feel HoG should leave a mark, but it should be a mark the player is okay with. It's not restricted to cyberlimbs; anything that serves as a good, occasionally unpleasant reminder of the PC's brush with death can work.

For a mage, that might be owing a big favor to a creepy magical group that healed him. Maybe they have a ritual link and want occasional services.

For the mundane guy who insists on doing without cyber it could be an addiction to painkiller medication.

Maybe the character gets a scar in his aura that makes him conspicuous to spirits and magicians.

The idea is to find something that doesn't wreck the player's fun, but that the character can gripe about.

Uhm… having your character being owned by omnipotent voodoo or suddenly being an addict usually ruins the players quite easily fun – just like getting Spirit Bane for free.

Why something with permanent game-effect? In SR4, characters can escape death quite often.

Just because there are no over the top game-effects doesn't mean the character won't change from the experience.

That's why you don't just hand it down as a GM. You invite the player to suggest something suitable that he's okay with.




That's a matter of taste. I want something tangible, and that often translates to game effects.

That would be a houserule, since RAW assumes the character recovers from the side effects.

Spirit Bane (Watcher)!!

And actually, I had an NPC guard HoG from dying at one point - he heroically dropped 99S(E) (got shot by 11 drones with SnS ammo at once - it was a mistake the rigger made, but he gave the command "shoot him once" to the whole subscription of drones instead of taking one drone out of the pack and telling it to) to only 77S(E). Now I have members of my gaming group trying to figure out what happened to him, and a couple are actually thinking of playing the security guard. The best character concept I've heard of from him is that he's horribly scarred (deformity 25) like Shishio, but the experience Awakened him to a Mystic Adept/Magician (not sure which) that focuses on electricity-based spells (Lightning Bolt, Ball Lightning, Static...). Out of the past year of gaming with this group, they're still expecting me to bring back that one man from the first 'run as a Prime Runner.

@rotbart

I don't think RAW says that. It implies that the player should recover, but doesn't dictate it.



While maybe not a bad idea, I find that kinda strange. For most groups things don't work that way. You don't sit down and negotiate what weapons the security guards should have. Players handle PC stuff, and the GM does the rest.

If there was to a permanent affect of some kind, I think it should flow naturally from the GM coming up with some credible way for the player to somehow survive the mess they're in.

I'd lean toward things like owing a favor as opposed to physical damage, but sometimes nothing if there's a credible way out without such a thing (such as the example in the book of having something snag a players jacket when they otherwise would have plummeted to their death. )

This is PC stuff.

But changes to the character due to a near-death experience are PC stuff. They directly change how it is for the player to play the character. Therefore the player should have a big, big say in what those changes are.

There's always the Flashback quality...