I've been noticing stories here of player death. Now it's possible that they're from older editions where that was easier (or when some players would rather just start a new character than play their old one after a "hand of god").

But I wonder if players are still dying semi regularly despite the fairly cheap "hand of god" ish edge burning option.

I really hope players aren't dying because of Shadowrun.

That would be really sad.

But I suspect that characters do die. The game is still quite deadly, and sometimes you only have so much edge.

I guess it is very rare to see players die, their characters are less furtunate though

I'd say with abusing Form-fit body armour makes characters very durable but since I removed the uncalled for stacking of that only armor I've seen much more character lethal damage and even lost a few but it is still rare.

Last week my game's face (I'm GM-ing) didn't make over too well with four FA assault rifles. SR4. The troll didn't take any damage at all.

Are we playing the same game? SR4 is incredibly deadly.

Those long/full bursts with APDS really hurt. A lot.

Even big nasty trolls with 30 soak dps "only" soak 10 boxes on average. An AR full burst starts at 15 before net hits.

Of course, there is still the Overflow to prevent characters from dying all the time.

But players need to use Edge quite a lot (thankfully not too often for Hand of God, only happened once so far) for their characters to survive.

Bye
Thanee

Ditto-In my group I've had 2 PC deaths, and many close calls.

1 PC death was due to another PC.
2 PC deaths was due to getting into a firefight with a gang at the gang's hangout.

1 missed call was a PC going astral and getting her arsed kicked by a shedhim...yes her body was occupied briefly. SHe use edge but got a flaw in the process.


Generall I encourage the group to avoid combat cause it is deadly and a PC usually gets hurt (Body armor is a life saver).

I've had a character or two die.
I want my game to be challenging, but survivable.
A character can still catch an unlucky burst.

If the fights are scaled properly and the players don't screw up, they should have a better than average chance.
I wouldn't want to put them into an impossible situation or spoon-feed them easy mode grunts.

It's very easy for PCs to die, FFBA notwithstanding.

I don't discourage combat, because I enjoy it as a GM and as a player. I do my best to take combat to the edge where the players are really sweating, but PC death isn't all that common. I feel most successful if the players are all "whew, that was close" at the end.

In my game, we've avoided fights like the plague. 95% of the time, we've either convinced others to do the dirty work or nullified the threat without entering combat at all. Thank god for those gases that knock people out

I dunno... a run that had no combat in it would trip me "that was too easy" sensors every time...

God's hand will only save your life: Your steady hand, good looks, Essence, and anything else which defines a certain character is at the GM's mercy

And at the very least, a player using the hand of god will spend the rest of the session with interesting tasks like twiddling thumbs, fetching dinner, "could you hand me that book" and the like.

Yes. My players didn't really use Hand of God because they were new to gaming and had a bunch of character ideas they wanted to try out. They were also pants on head retarded, which increased the body count.

If the GM knows the game mechanics well enough to calculate reasonable odds for the PCs to survive a challenging firefight, and the PCs aren’t doing anything blatantly stupid, then PC death should be very rare.

This.

My goal isn't to kill players but create a challenging and rewarding experience for the players. I don't think I've had a player die yet, though I try not to pull my punches either. But that doesn't mean my players WONT die if they do something stupid. I think perhaps 4th edition is less lethal than other editions for those players that keep their heads down. But shooting yourself in the face with pistol will kill you just as easily as a shotgun will (talking real life here, don't bring up 4th edition damage codes and how you CANT kill yourself with pistol even if you wanted to unless you were a pistol god. Its a metaphor, dangit).

I think your memory is going if you can't remember if you've killed any of our SR PCs.....

So far the only character to die in my campaign was the Body 2 Unarmed Combat Adept. He had impressive Reaction, but wide burst fire really got the better of him. It served as a learning signal to the rest of the group, and Body/Armor have gone up a lot.

Well, that statement in my mind was really on a different level. I don't think I've we've ever been in a situation in SR where a player SHOULD have died and I had to fudge a roll or something to save them. I reserve such behavior for situations where the player had a reasonably good chance of success and I think it would be cool to succeed but still fails because of continued bad luck (my brother comes to mind...can't roll above a 3). But havn't had to do that with SR compared to other games. Edge stat adds a built in GM fudge rule.

Ya we've lost a few PCs but I don't think hand of god is cheap at all. In fact it's a very fair trade imo.

In exchange for not dying you permanently lose one point of edge and gain some sort of burden related to the way you almost died. For mages this can mean losing a chunk of essence due to life saving implants or a hacker getting burned from some black ice and having a bad twitch and combat paralysis for the rest of his life. Sometimes dying would actually be easier to continuing with a slightly gimped character. In fact unless someone was extra attached to the character I've seen hand of god saved for PCs with more Karma so the hit to their effectiveness wouldn't be that bad.

New characters in my games tend to experience a high mortality rate until the players are able to get past the idea that absolutely every living target in their path must be destroyed no matter what. Once the players take heed to my warning about choosing their battles carefully, things begin to run more smoothly.

A majority of combats in my games tend to be running gun battles with the characters attempting to make a hasty retreat before reinforcements arrive. Sometimes the characters will be in a position to take out an entire enemy force quickly before making their exit and they are usually smart enough not to stick around to brag and/or loot bodies.

I also try to warn new players about heavily min/maxing their characters by pointing out the fact that not only can I (as GM) do the same, but I'm probably better at it and have an endless supply of NPCs I can do it to if necessary. Playing the numbers game against the GM is a no win scenario, so I try to encourage them to just play the character and not the numbers.

We still have combat in every run, we just force them to work in our favor... Also, we usually spend a session planning out our attacks and making sure things go smooth as possible. Disable cameras, disable drones (or have backdoors in place to do so 5 seconds before we run into them in the actual run), watch security procedures and plan ways to avoid, etc. It isn't a run a session, but a run ever two...

Yeah, I have no issue with the Hando' God. Players who are extremely attached to a character can keep them kicking, even past the point the've become walking liabilities.

No... the one I have issue with is burning edge in the same manner to guarantee a critical success... often used on a dodge or soak roll to basically do the same thing but without that fun new quirk the character gets saddled with.

OK, so Megu has pants on head retarded players and Sengir and Wyldknight apparently have evil GMs, where a player burning edge for a hand o' god might be greeted with banjo music and other Deliverance references until they tear up the character sheets to stop the narration. Or something like that.

But most of the rest of you seem to be acting like the "escape certain death" option isn't there. Do players just not know about it and the GM doesn't tell them? Or is pulling a hand 'o god what people mean when they say player death. Like the adept in Ascalaphus's game would have died, except they burned edge.

Well, I suppose it could be different with pretty new characters. You aren't very attached and you'd be at a lower BP level than you started.



Well I see that as an entirely different situation than the hand of god scenario. For one you're still in the fight, so you might end up burning a second edge when the sniper makes their next shot or whatever. But moreso it's that you just need around one little roll. A bullet goes a little to the right and you're fine, and can go on to be a Big Damn Hero.

HoG is more for when you're totally surrounded and a pissed off great dragon is sitting on your head or something. You're so deep in the drek no critical success is going to do, only the GM can pull you out of it with a little creative storytelling.

I think we're ignoring Hand of God because it's not important. If you ask 'how deadly is X edition?', Hand of God isn't the *most* relevant thing.

Lmao, that mental image amused me.

No it's not that bad. One example is one of our PCs should have died when they fell out of a tall window, instead one of their legs was shattered and he needed to get a new one. Another example was a mage needing a Geas after a critically glitched spell almost killed him but he burned his edge. He lost faith in his casting after that near death experience so the geas was a good idea. The only time the really brutal disadvantages are added when the deaths were just terrible and completely the players fault but epic near deaths, one being where one PC held off 8 Red Sams with a broken leg because he was to heavy to be carried and stayed behind to buy us time, were met with very little damage after edge was burned. They took him captive but he was unconscious the whole time so they couldn't interrogate him and we rescued him.

To my GM is just mattered why you were about to die.

All your fault = bad stuff

Dice's Fault = Nothing that couldn't be worked around

Epic near death = usually nothing at all.

Something I've noticed is the at least one of the times HoG was used in my games has been when the other players, not the one in question, demanded it, usually because they liked the PC so much. I remember our Ojibwe razorgirl (Jukebox, who'd become Sixth World Minneapolis' most prominent outlaw)'s player being just as ok with the idea of trying something new, but the group, myself included, were so fond of her that we just didn't have the heart to write her off, and hinted that she should use Hand of God. So of course I didn't give her any weird penalties, because not only was I not trying to discourage HoG but at the time I was actually trying to encourage it.

This.

And it pays off, in the long run.

I've found SR4 to be more deadly and I don't think that the HoG is any more powerful than the karma pool of previous editions (where IIRC players could spend karma from their pool to get at least one hit and then burn karma to get the rest they needed.).
I've heard of SR3 PC surviving Rail gun shots (with Naval damage code) or a fall from the 43rd floor without using HoG.

As for HoG in SR4 I guess it's up to the GM and PC to choose how to apply it. I'm pretty sure that's how it's written in SR4A.
Some options I can think of:
- Free use
- Only one use
- Only used when the character's death was the result of bad luck or another PC's mistake.
- Only used with the GM's approval
- Drawbacks (magic/essence loss, flashbacks, amnesia...)
- Can only be used if it's realistically possible for the PC to survive and get out.

SR4A is Free Use, but not as in Free Ride.

We play 4th Edition since it came out and until now i lost 3 characters. The first one was planned badly and i sacrificed him, pumped up with a dose of every combat-drug to buy the team time to get away. The second one was turned into a host for a insect spirit but this run erased the whole team so it doesn´t count. ^^ The third one was killed because the GM didn´t liked him. Ok, if i would GM i also wouldn´t like a troll-ghoul-mystic adept with Body 12, 18 points of armor and a force 5 spirit inhabiting it (additional 10 points of hardened armor) which causes a drone with a vigliance autocannon to be completely unable to kill him ^^. But it was fun to see the GM becoming more and more depressed. ^^

Regarding the game-mechanics SR4 is quite more deadly than all other editions (can´t talk about SR1, didn´t played it long enough). Karma pool was like edge but you had much more of it and in SR4 you don´t get a success at a target number of 4 or sometimes 2. ^^

If SR4 is less deadly than earlier versions I think it's only marginally so.

The GM should always keep a very judicious approach to the Hand of God rule, especially considering characters aren't limited to one time only any more. With an Edge of 8 being achievable it's possible for a character to have nine lives and it makes for a really boring time if you have that much invincibility.

I nearly denied it for a player who got chomped by a cybertooth tiger, but bestowed mercy on the grounds it was the team's first SR adventure. Now I know what you're going to say, but wait up – this was a large group covering all the bases and even knowing beforehand that there was a cybertooth tiger in the facility (and learning what one was) they still only sent two characters down to deal with it: a non-combat TM and an amnesiac weapon specilist who still didn't know half his own skills!

If you've got a group that doesn't deal well with characters dying, I find that you can keep things interesting by letting the characters get messed up instead – things like addiction, diseases and severe injuries can keep the grittiness without separating a player from his beloved creation at a non-cinematic moment. With the afore-mentioned TM I made the HoG effect keep him alive long enough for the team to run in and stabilise him, but he's now got level 2 brain damage. The player doesn't seem that bothered. Yet...

Well, if it's just a bad roll or the player misunderstood something, I have no problem with the character miraculously escaping without a scratch. Gritty game is all well and good, but if a beloved character dies or is severly crippled from and infected devil rat bite that would be too much IMO.


But in general, I'm a fan of the concept that the GM is the master of the IC universe. If he sayeth "a bridge dropeth unto ye out of the heavens" then a bloody bridge will come down on your head out of the blue sky. Yes, in a dungeon. And if you want to survive against impossible odds, the supreme being might demand a price for it.

Actually I told that player about HoG; he read the entry in the book and said he preferred not to. He didn't feel like playing a "damaged goods" character. I hadn't actually thought about what kind of damage. But right now my players are in the stage where they want to try out several new kinds of characters anyway, so they're okay with character death being a risk.

Psh. If your runner isn't 'damaged goods' fresh out of chargen, you're playing wrong.

To be clear I'm not saying SR4 is less deadly in terms of base mechanics. If you're talking about the system without using Karma/Edge I'd say SR4 is deadlier, because of how earlier editions handled damage. While it was easy to put someone down in a single attack so that they'd bleed out and die eventually, it was very hard to outright kill them. In some editions I believe you had to be using a special overdamage rule from one of the expansion rulebooks to even be able to kill someone in a single attack. So players tended to be able to patch each other up, unless the GM felt malicious and had the goons fire on unconscious PCs instead of firing at the remaining PCs that were trying to kill them.

But I do think SR4s "escape certain death" clause makes for a much stronger out since it's supposed to get you out of a situation, not just a single bullet, and it doesn't carry nearly the magnitude of loss or requirements and limitations of the old HoGs.

It sounds like players are still dying primarily through a combination of being up for trying something new, and variations on the "deliverance" factor, in that many GMs consider using the escaping certain death option to be an opening to rape a character (though probably more metaphorically than litterally).

EDIT; By the way, the reason I keep thinking of deliverance here is because of a story from Knights of the Dinner Table that resulted in a character sheet being burned out back instead of the character just being raised/healed as would be typical.

Word. I am the sort of player who would take even a vindictive GM's punishment and turn it into gaming gold. Or, at least, I would have fun with it. Those around me might grow weary.

I dunno.... I could HoG to avoid being killed, get arrested, tossed in jail with some troll ganger that wants me to call him Big Bubba. That sounds like a fairly literal definition.

Actually I did that to one of my players once...

Though as a result that player considered his unarmed combat skills to have been karma very well spent, as opposed to the whinging about them that I see on this forum


I'll have to remember that the next time one of those "unarmed combat sucks" threads comes around.

It does suck in general usage! Unarmed is good in that situation unless the PC had a conveniently placed holdout stored in a body cavity....

.... I've suggested to another play in my group that we get a Level 3 Ceramic/Plasteel Barret that can be broken down and store the parts to it among the team's various body cavities. Just in case....

I'd just say that they don't have enough dice to be able to buy a critical success. If they do actually have enough, let them do it, but remind them that they're probably better off just rolling and getting those successes they should expect. And then laugh when they crit-glitch.

Eh. I suppose it matters who designed the damage. He didn't really like the idea of having his concept of his character interfered with, by being scarred by HoG. Too bad, because I thought the character was fairly interesting.



What about turning the tables? Ask the player how he thinks the character should be scarred by his HoG moment. There'll be a price to pay, but collaborate with the player to come up with a price that doesn't take the fun out of the character.

In general I like the HoG because it allows a player to say "I'm not done with this character yet", and go on. It's neat if someone has found a character they really like. It avoids identical-twin new characters. It conserves a character who's built up a lot of story. But it doesn't cheapen death too much either; having to invoke the HoG is still something to fear.

Always, though sometimes 35 points of negative qualties just isn't enough.

At least SR isn't one of those systems where your character might not actually survive chargen.

It's more a question of who picks the scars. People tend to have an idea of their character that they like. They don't always like it if someone else starts to change that picture. Which is why I like the idea of letting the player pick a reasonable flaw that the player is fine with (even if the character thinks his life is ruined).

I agree with the sentiment very much. But it does assume a level of maturity in that player that may not exist in every game. Some players are incapable of portraying a character who is anything short of godlike in every way. In those cases, you're going to have to be the one to decide, or let them to back to chargen and try again - hopefully without coming back with Ted's identical twin brother Fred.

No. As a GM, you don't parent your players. You play a game so that everyone involved has fun.

Suggesting options to players who grew bored and want to spice up their characters is one thing. Hitting them with the wand'o'hurt isn't.
Burning Edge to survive is already a loss of Karma – tacking on Negative Qualities is just adding insult to injury.

Thats the most important thing about HoG (and rules in general)
If the player wants to keep his character his way, let him chose the flaws.
If he doesn't want flaws...Hell no flaws then.
If he doesn't reduce other players fun, let him have his fun.

Usually people will realize that fun comes from conflict and conflict blossoms on flaws.

In a fantasy setting we even had one character coming back from the dead (in a world where there is no ressurection spell) because his player wanted to have her char back.

YMMV but Fun!

Which may be many things, but not necessarily Negative Qualities. Or Positive Qualities. (That's probably why Made Man is a PQ – so you can't buy it off with Karma...)

The original suggestion from SR2 Compendium is to add both Flaw and corresponding Edge after HoG, BTW – of course, those you could not byuy off with Karma.

Seeing this made me think of this thread: Here. Which I found very entertaining.

With a bastard GM like that, you're not going to survive very long in any game.

Personally, I like Hand of God in SR4. As a GM it lets me be a little more rough with players then I could in a game like D&D, in the early levels. This rewards players that take high Edge, sure, but high edge is useful for more then Hand of God, especially when looked at without burning edge.

As a player, I like knowing my character is alive, but not necessarily accessable. I used the Hand of God twice, once, when the group was surrounded, and my character got in a fight with Spirits trying to escape the back way (No hearing do to my own mistakes, so spirit got a gravy train of unopposed spell casting on me..)

The second time, was another character I was toying with in the same game. We had a job, that involved a local Bear Shaman with a secret, and going into Salish Territory to talk to a free Spirit roaming the woods. We approached the spirit, and the other character (only two of us went, me as I had a Salish contact, and him because he was a driver character). The Driver was influenced to attack me, the spirit was amplifying his rage. So, I got hit by his bike. Twice. And failed a dodge test. Face planting onto the wheel, and getting run down, my character also had been allowed an addiction to pain, at chargen, so I avoided negetive qualities, and instead, got several months in physical therapy...