Does anyone else think that Krav is overpowered.
Take Aim as a Free Action and/or Ready Weapon as a Free Action. Really!
They can ready any weaon as a free action. A Physical adept with quick draw still has to make a test, so do characters with Iaijutsu. It has become the standard ability for ALL runners I know, regardless of character fluff.

So, am I the only one with this issue?

a GM with some brain restricts it for pistols only...that of course is a houserule

That's how we roll at our games too.

Well, while quick draw power does reguier a test, it's not a kind of test a gun slinger adept is likely to fail and it uses up no action.

SR4 martial arts, in general, are dangerously vague. They should include 'style weapons' or something, and/or clearer conditional restrictions on the various bonuses. Some *do*, which is why it's especially frustrating.

That's what the GM's for, I guess.

Can't anybody (try to) do pistols already? Well, sort of- draw and fire as a simple action with a reaction test, right? Or was that dropped in Sr4? Was a fave option for my speed sam. Often used it instead of re-loading; free to drop, simple to quickdraw and fire, shoot again with a simple.

What is this 're-loading' you speak of? Silly Matrix scenes.

Krav Maga is actually based on using any weapon that you may come across, so restricting it to pistols is not in keeping with the spirit of the martial art itself. There's a school near my house and first day students are learning knife and gun disarms, breakfalls, and standing from prone without hands. In fact, with a little research you'll actually find that Krav is one of the very original martial arts - the Hebrew slaves taught Krav to Pharoe's bodyguards who the Greeks learned aspects of it from and turned it into pankration, then spread that around the world (eventually becoming virtually every modern-known martial art). So yeah, Krav Maga is powerful because it was basically the first.

Whilst I agree they are both useful abilities, I've never built a Krav character. I have considered it but martial arts rules are not in place in the game that character is in. I have taken Iaijutusu in a build using different martial arts.

That sounds suspiciously like a self-aggrandizing rewriting of history, Neraph, but no skin off my nose.

Hey, its better than a kid I knew who believed that Age of Empires depicted real history.

The first in the Ocident, if you insist. Tai-chi, kung-fu, whatever, might be dated along the same time or even older.

Yes, Karate, Jujitsu, Various forms of Wu Shu, Tung Tse Do, all those are based on Krav Maga.

Yeah.

Krav is pretty cool, and it's served the Israeli Special Forces well. But lets not get carried away on the history of it.

Tanng Soo Do is based off of Shotokan karate, taekkyeon, Subak, and Chinese kung fu, and only been around for about 2k years, so that's not a good example. More modern Karate is only a couple hundred years old. Jujutsu is only a few hundred years old also. Wushu is the only martial art about as old as Krav Maga/Pankration, and shares many of the same concepts and movements, if with a different flair.

Well.... it's not really that bothersome for anything outside of a pistol. The ready weapon portion is mostly applicable to pistols anyway since most other two handed firearms are probably already going to be readied before combat begins. So the benefit for two-handed firearms is mostly limited to the free action take aim.

As for quick draw? That's a separate action from ready weapon. It's a combination of ready weapon + simple action attack in a single simple action.

With Krav Maga
Free Action Ready Weapon. Simple Action Shoot. Simple Action Shoot. [2 shots]

Without Krav Maga
Quick Draw. Simple Action Shoot. (Free Action preserved) [2 shots]

Quick draw is superior to Krav maga's benefit.

Once again, not an issue for two-handed firearms since they will almost always be readied if you're carrying it.

Someone get me Wounded Ronin and the rest of the Bullshido crew.

This is 100% bullshit. Krav Maga was developed by a Hungarian Jew in the 1930s. Imi Lichtenfeld developed it as a means of helping the Jewish community of Bratislava protect itself from growing anti-semitic activity. Any attempts to claim it was taught to the Pharoah's slaves in ancient Egypt is completely, utterly unsupported by any serious historical record. There is zero evidence to support this lineage, as any "basic research" would tell you. I don't know any details about where the Greeks developed Pankration or if the slaves had anything to do with it, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that it had no influence on the development of Krav Maga, except possibly when Imi Lichtenfeld said, "Hey, you know what's a good idea? Defending yourself!" Cuz, y'know, the slaves probably had that idea too.

It's a cool martial art, sure. But let's not pretend it's older than it is. New things can be awesome too.

In fact, new things are always more awesome.

Basically the section on Jew-Fu was written by someone like Neraph that's why it is amazing where as most of the other martial arts run the gamut from meh to neat.

Now without getting into the merits of any particular real world martial arts I will say from aa game design stand point krav fails especially next to firefight. That's why it's banned at my tables.

TBH. I like Krav Maga over Firefight because I use two-handed firearms and I have a notorious habit for making disarm attempts by shooting weapons out of people's hands.

Tell that to Star Wars

Right when you have one martial art that is dramaticly better then all others especially at the specific thing another was built from the ground up for that's a game design issue

Yup, it's better than most for most runners.
On the other hand, i'm glad it's as good as it is. You're spending precious quality points on it. It needs to be worthwhile.

Honestly, I'm not sure whether you say Krav Maga or Firefight is overpowered/underpowered.

Both Krav Maga and Firefight are for fighting with ranged weapons in melee combat. The benefits are identical except for one benefit that differs between them. Krav Maga gets +1 to disarm attempts, Firefight get +1 to melee dodge. However these benefits only apply while in melee combat. It's not as if you could be standing out of melee combat and get your +1 to disarm. There's only a few benefits that seem like they should apply outside of melee combat. Ninjitsu's +1 Infiltration comes to mind.

Krav Maga is not designed (in SR4) to be a defensive martial art. In fact it is a purely offensive martial art. Firefight is a combination of offensive and defensive bonuses. So I'm not sure where or how you're comparing the two since eat art serves a different role as defined by their differing traits. This is the reason Krav Maga appeals to my character. He's hyper offensive and his defensive strength lies in undetectability. Granted he uses ranged attacks from range so Krav Maga benefits wouldn't apply, but if forced into a melee combat situation Krav Maga would serve him better since the differing bonus from Firefight is nigh useless and he doesn't use pistols anyway.

Are martial arts only for melee combat? I never took krav as a melee martial art. If so, how does take aim apply in melee only?

Firing a handgun while in melee, mostly.

EDIT: Nevermind, I brainfarted.





That's not a house rule - that's RAW. Krav Maga simply allows Quick Draw (SR4 p137) to be a free action. Quick Draw, as defined on p137 of SR4, is limited to "pistols and pistol-sized weapons". You can only quick-draw other weapons if you get the Iaijutsu maneuver (which any martial artist can take, not just Krav Maga practitioners), or take the Quick Draw adept power (Street Magic, p179).

My book doesn't say 'Quick Draw as a Free Action', Sponge. I don't think anything allows that, because that would mean firing the gun as a free action.

Ack you're right, my brain was wandering down some parallel universe train of thought.

Kravs main benefits are the ready weapon and take aim actions as free actions. Firefight does not get this. Given that firefight is the martial art specifically designed to incorporate using your guns in a fight it seems odd that krav maga is not only better at that but better generally as well.

The martial art system is really poorly done IMO, this is just one example of it.

Krav Maga goes a bit beyond just a martial art. Most people just take self defense courses in it, which include basics like the ancient Egyption method of defending yourself against handguns. Its not all martial arts material though, its more the mindset of knowing what to do in or how to avoid a situation before it actually occurs. All in all it teaches you to respond quickly and brutally to resolve a situation as fast as possible. Attacks that would be considered cheap shots in other martial arts are your opening moves in Krav Maga.

Weapon wise that means getting your weapon out/ready and taking down your opponent as quickly and accurately as possible, hence the quick draw and aim bonuses. This doesn't apply only to pistols, Israeli military techniques for readying other firearms fall under 'Krav Maga' as well. The same techniques from other militaries or security forces (police/SWAT) might be similar and just as effective, but Krav Maga tends to stand out because it includes modern techniques (it is not an ancient martial art) and has become widespread after most of the world has seen the brutal effectiveness of Israeli military and security...which has more to do with the mindset of those departments (and the state of the country) than the fact that they're taught Krav Maga.

The major issue with Firefight is that it only gets three benefits while most other Martial Arts with the exception of Kung Fu, though it is arguable that you can take the one advantage for block, dodge, and parry to reach 4, have 4 abilities.

It doesn't surprise me that Firefight appears weak. Whoever made it screwed up by not including the 4th benefit. It may be that Krav Maga is overpowered, but that's not a fair assessment when the competitor is intentionally weaker by lacking the 4th benefit.

And if you want to draw pistols (or pistol-sized items) with a free action, the arm slide does the same job.


Oh, Neraph forgot to tell where the ancient Israelites got Krav Maga from: They learned it from the flying saucer Nazis from Aldebaran, who were just in town to build the pyramids. The origins of KRav Maga on Aldebaran have not been conclusively proven, the prevailing theory is that it was developed to combat the reptiloids and their mutant sea brass allies.

From the Arsenal errata:
p. 157 Firefight Advantages
After the first advantage option, add: “+1 die to Defense
Tests to dodge Ranged Attacks if engaged in melee.”

It also makes clear that you can do exactly what you said with kunfu

I'm not fond of how they split things between different arts; this is the solution I use in my games:

Really? Because I've always heard that it was a "martial art" put together specifically for the IDF to train in, developed by Imi Lichtenfield in the 1930's and 1940's...and it was, specifically, a cobbled-together collection of effective street fighting techniques (learned in Jewish ghettos), with a smattering of Eastern martial arts added in and appropriately credited. Based off the early "Kapap" fighting stile Lichtenfield pioneered, but with strong influences from Judo and Jujitsu, some la cane stick-fighting from Europe, and then they just kept adding to the stew-pot with everything they found that (a) worked very well, and (b) could be taught to the Israeli army very quickly and efficiently.

This is the first I've ever heard any sort of claim about it being an ancient martial art.

Can you cite a source for it having any sort of ancient, pre-Greek, origins?

Do I really read 'an ancient egyptian method of defending yourself against handguns ? Granted some guys see lightbulbs on some egyptian bas-reliefs, or interpret a small piece of goldsmithing as a delta-winged plane, but handguns are a tad more recent than the pharaos...

As other have stated, the 'Krav Maga an ancient über-martial art that spawned juste about every other' is plain fantasy.

That's not what I've heard. In fact, Krav Maga was one of the first martial arts (if not the first) to incorporate firearms both offensively and defensively into its core techniques. Unless you're saying the ancient Egyptian slaves had guns?

Just throwing in 'Krav Maga History' into Satan's Maw Google Search brings back its founding in the 30's with Lichtenfield.

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/a...MeterSplode.jpg

Woha, thank god I didn't take the headware version

Aren't people using Free Actions for Called Shot to increase DV?

So your restricting a maneuver specifically named after a technique of drawing a katana in to pistol sized weapons only(ie. no quick drawing a katana), that sounds reasonable

I know I am. cuz thats just damn sexy with DP around 20

Hell, I did it with a dice pool around 12.

Haha. Called shots. They are useful, and powerful. Now, how does one get more free actions to take aim at range, called shot and draw your pistol sized weapon before firing? Because unless you can do all that, Krav Maga isn`t the be all end all of abilities.

Me Too!

Just recently we had a discussion in one of the German Forums with a Guy who wanted to use
Krav Maga for Bows and Arrows
thats what You get when one of the MAs is imbalanced Ruleswise

with a balanced Dance
Medicineman

I do or don't. Depends on my mood, but you know that I do called shot disarms.... a lot. Probably more than is necessary (I think I have more disarm attempts than your brother) and in situations where I probably should just shoot the guy dead. At least after he shoots at me I start shooting them dead.

What can I say. It's just cool to shoot the gun out of someone's hands.

--



I think I found the problem.

No. For a level one quality per advantage, like all MAs, it's not really worth it.

MAs are a great way of burning karma, they don't really matter in play. The only thing they got going for themselves is that you are explicitly allowed to get them in play, not on the GMs mercy like most other qualities.

So he is nearly as efficient as a normal handgun, while still lacking AP ammo. That's… incredible, right?

@Rotbarts Comment
The point is not the effectivity !(I like effectivity but it has to be backed Up by beliviability)
The point is the Thought of using Krav Maga for Bows and Arrows
next comes Tae Kwon Do and Maneuver Kick and tying a Whip to your Ankle to have a Reach of 3

HokaHey
Medicineman

Kick is Unarmed Combat only and whips, no matter if tied to the feet or not, are Exotic Weapons.

But the idea is awesome.